Advanced Helicopter FDM Feedback

[raven_jj 1]

Ghosthawk feels really nice, but there's something wrong with Orca.

Side cyclic works more like in a car than a helicopter- when you push your stick to the side, helicopter banks, but when you let the stick go, heli straightens, as if it was on autohover.

As for Blackfoot, the tail rotor feels very weak, it has problems to turn sideways at 30kph or even stationary, not mentioning snap turning at 180km/h that it should be capable of.

[armored_sheep 56]

More tweaks in todays dev. build update incl reworked ground contacts on all helicopters.

I will look at the yaw/sideslip of Blackfoot soon.

[NoPOW 59]

Tried to do some auto-rotation landings, but upon starving the heli of fuel the RPM plummets to 0 almost instantly. It takes quite a height (>300m, Mohawk) to regain some decent RPM and lift... Shouldn't it take some time for the rotors to stop spinning?

EDIT: Other vanilla choppers don't display this behavior, only the Mohawk does; turning the engine off while flying makes the heli react like some invisible hand pulls it back.

Edited August 28, 2014 by NoPOW

[b00ce 160]

Oh it isn't the left roll that you have to induce to keep the Ghostwak in hover that I was concerned about. It's the helicopter's natural tendency to roll right that I was criticizing. With the cyclic at its neutral position laterally, it wants to roll right with auto-trim off. So not only do you need left cyclic to correct translating tendency in hover, you needed left cyclic to counter its right roll. Even during forward forward flight you need left cyclic to counter its tendency to roll right.

Maybe something to do with the tail rotor not being perfectly in line with the main and/or CG?

[raven_jj 1]

Ok, I've tested Kajman and Mohawk, and while Kajman feels great, Mohawk presents the same behavior as Orca. Nobody else says anything about it so maybe it's something with my game.

Joystick side movement doesn't represent the speed of rolling, as in all other choppers. When you lean your joystick, say, 30 degrees left, heli rolls 30 degrees left and stays in that position. If you let go of the stick, heli goes back to horizontal. In Mohawk it was ok before yesterday's patch.

[gibonez 18]

Quick question now that the new flight mechanics are set in how much more important are the use of a hotas + pedals vs just a mouse and keyboard.

Would getting a hotas set up make my life easier.

[armored_sheep 56]

Would getting a hotas set up make my life easier.

Complete controls setup is for those that want to experience flight on highest difficulty settings (experience full controls coupling). For those that have just mouse/keyboard or even a Joystick with twist handle I would recommend using at least auto-trim helper and map auto-hover toggle key.

[gibonez 18]

Complete controls setup is for those that want to experience flight on highest difficulty settings (experience full controls coupling). For those that have just mouse/keyboard or even a Joystick with twist handle I would recommend using at least auto-trim helper and map auto-hover toggle key.

Guess im buying a Hotas + pedals then.

I was going to get one for SC and ED anyway but the added functionality within Arma 3 makes it all the better.

[dragon01 902]

Would getting a hotas set up make my life easier.

It'll make it more immersive, that's for sure. :) Getting it exclusively for ArmA might be overkill, but if you really enjoy helos and planes, it might be worth buying. I haven't yet tried the latest iteration of the FM, but if it's anything like TkoH, then flying with a HOTAS is quite an experience, it takes a while to get used to, but it gives you the same amount of control over your machine as a real pilot would have IRL.

[M. BlackBeard 26]

Joystick controls are fine (besides the lack of some features previously mentioned), but when I'm on my laptop playing with mouse and keyboard, it feels as if there has been no effort for smoothing the direct (keyboard) input controls (pitch, yaw, but majorly the rudder pedals inputs (too sensitive) and unresponsive throttle controls). It feels way unresponsive when you're controlling the throttle with the keyboard, in my case a Razer Nostromo for my left hand. Tested on the editor with no lag and /or de-sinc inducing factors....

It would feel much better if it responded to the key strokes, instead of having to hold down the key for a second before the throttle gauge to move.

Edited August 29, 2014 by MarkusLetifer

[raven_jj 1]

After further testing, now Orca, Mohawk, Hellcat and Blackfoot have the same symptoms. I've checked file integrity and key bindings.

They act, as if they didn't recognize that they're off the ground. After banking more than 70-90 degrees to the side, thy start responding normally, as if they reached their pivot point. They basically act like a Roly-poly_toy.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Raven_JJ

[gatordev 219]

Ok, I've tested Kajman and Mohawk, and while Kajman feels great, Mohawk presents the same behavior as Orca. Nobody else says anything about it so maybe it's something with my game.

Joystick side movement doesn't represent the speed of rolling, as in all other choppers. When you lean your joystick, say, 30 degrees left, heli rolls 30 degrees left and stays in that position. If you let go of the stick, heli goes back to horizontal. In Mohawk it was ok before yesterday's patch.

What you describe is how a modern AFCS works in helos. When trimmed and all the functions are turned on, you make an input with the cyclic that directly relates to the angle of bank. When you release the cyclic, it comes back to the trimmed position and the angle of bank returns to the original position.

I haven't been around all week, so I haven't messed with A3, but maybe some of the flight models have changed to mirror AFCS functionality. To be honest, I'm not even sure which helicopters are the "Kajman" and "Mohawk." I just try and call everything by the name closes to what they represent in modern times.

[worldsprayer 0]

Tried to do some auto-rotation landings, but upon starving the heli of fuel the RPM plummets to 0 almost instantly. It takes quite a height (>300m, Mohawk) to regain some decent RPM and lift... Shouldn't it take some time for the rotors to stop spinning?

EDIT: Other vanilla choppers don't display this behavior, only the Mohawk does; turning the engine off while flying makes the heli react like some invisible hand pulls it back.

Ive been gone for a while, but I need to point out that for low-intertial rotor systems like modern attack helos (they allow greater response time) that's actually how it works. if you don't drop your collective immediately, say good bye to your RPM. Helos designed for stability like bells (xh9 series in game) or hueys use high intertia systems, meaning that their blades maintain their momentum and don't lose their energy immediately on loss of power. My understanding is most helos are going to low inertia for anything military related these days.

Second, I just tested several helos like the ghosthawk and mh9 for the first time in a couple of weeks and damn the system has seen some improvement. Ghosthawk flies like a real helo, and I performed an utterly flawless auto in an mh9 just like in real life. Kudos to the dev team. i havent tested everything, but right now things look much better.

[machineabuse 11]

More tweaks in todays dev. build update incl reworked ground contacts on all helicopters.

I've had a massive hoot doing belly landings in the Ghost Hawk :) Feels great!

[deepfried 1]

I really like the Kajman now but the mh9 feels weird on the cyclic at very low speeds, in fact i'm not even sure I can get it to hover, it seems to slide all over the place like its sitting on top of a dome of ice (could be i'm just a bad pilot).

[quickvenge 10]

EXE rev. 126964 (game)

The Orca, Mohawk, Hellcat and Blackfoot do have that odd behavior of self leveling when returning the cyclic to center. Because of this they require a fair amount of cyclic to bank right and left. The interesting thing is if you enable auto-trim the effect goes away.

The rest of the feedback is with auto-trim off.

Thanks for giving Ghosthawk more power. I'm liking it now. It still has a roll tendency to the right. It's not bad, but in my opinion it should be less as it requires quite a bit of left cyclic to correct. It also has some interesting roll effects when yawing, and countering yaw. If the pedals induce a right roll, it can snap roll right because the right roll tendency.

MH-9 pedals still seems a little light in hover. The AH-9 still feels better when countering torque with left pedal.

Blackfoot could use more yaw authority as someone else has already stated.

The rotor torque loading issue is very pronounced on the Mohawk, and AH-9. Most of the other choppers can simply power through the incorrect torque behavior. But these two helicopters are very susceptible to over torque, and subsequent low RPM conditions.

The Hellcat wants to pitch down/forward heavily. It also requires left pedal to counter rotor torque, but it is a clockwise rotating so should require right pedal.

The Orca is very twitchy, and unstable. It's hard to fly given the self leveling issue.

[LeeManatee 4]

littlebird and all other helicopters feel weightless and a bit too jerky, compared to ToH flight model

when i pull cyclic to slow down it doesn't react adequately but continue to "slide"

in general, the FM feels very floaty atm, like helicopters have no weight at all.

i would be happy as hell if we will have exact same ToH FM as default

playing with g940 flight system (joy, throttle, pedals) 100% identical curves settings.

Edited August 31, 2014 by n7snk

[JuiceMouse 10]

After flying the humming bird and ghosthawk for a little bit, I gotta say im pretty disappointed. I will test further, but as it stands the way the FM handles basic helicopter aerodynamics, RPM and torque is wildly unrealistic. I don't want to be a negative nancy, here... but has anyone working on the FM actually flown a helicopter? Cause it doesnt seem like that is the case. Is there any way we can have a list of actual effects that will and will not be modeled? I hear ground effect IS modeled, but havent read that definitively anywhere. How about ETL, translational thrust, settling with power? How is the energy relationship between airspeed, altitude and rotor RPM modeled? How is engine power handled? If we're going to have a more complicated flight model, talking about it in terms of these more complicated things is going to be necessary... If you want my opinion, as a rated commercial helicopter pilot, on the 'flight experience' ... its nothing like flying a real helicopter.

[armored_sheep 56]

EXE rev. 126964 (game) The Hellcat wants to pitch down/forward heavily. It also requires left pedal to counter rotor torque, but it is a clockwise rotating so should require right pedal.

It is a mistake in 3D model - animation and rotor is reverted. The flight model is made for counterclockwise turning main rotor (same as real Lynx helicopter).

[blackpixxel 53]

Is the Lynx also able to perform a looping like in real life in Arma? I only tried to do rolls, which work nice. I would love to do some 3D flying in Arma...

Time to test it

[armored_sheep 56]

I recommend reading https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Helicopter_Flight_Model_Config_%28XML%29 to all interested in Advanced Flight Model configuration capabilities (authenticity of simulation).

I like to compare in game models with real life references, if you have some, although the scope of Arma is not full fidelity simulation of particular real helicopter models.

[JuiceMouse 10]

I like to compare in game models with real life references, if you have some, although the scope of Arma is not full fidelity simulation of particular real helicopter models.

If the intent is not to make the flight model closer to full fidelity, why change it at all? I do see how the translation from real-world pilot to simulation development is a bit more complicated than I think I can appreciate, though. I'm just seeing that the FM at the moment is, for all its relative complexity, falling back on the notion that making helicopters ultra-sensitive is the way to make them more realistic... which is just not so.

It seems like RotorLib is pretty comprehensive. Is there any way we can get more detailed gauges such as torque, n1, n2?

[b00ce 160]

I recommend reading https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Helicopter_Flight_Model_Config_%28XML%29 to all interested in Advanced Flight Model configuration capabilities (authenticity of simulation).

I like to compare in game models with real life references, if you have some, although the scope of Arma is not full fidelity simulation of particular real helicopter models.

Is it possible to change the horizontal stabilizer's angle of attack dynamically and have it effect the FM accordingly? Save for instance the Blackhawk and Apache helicopters have a "wing" on the tail that changes pitch with airspeed. The huey also has stabilizers but they're tied to cyclic input.

[roshnak 41]

If the intent is not to make the flight model closer to full fidelity, why change it at all?

That's not what he said. He said that Arma is not a full fidelity simulation of particular helicopter models.

Which I take to mean that you shouldn't expect the Ghosthawk to fly exactly like a Blackhawk, or a Hummingbird to fly exactly like a Littlebird, the Blackfoot to fly exactly like the Commanche, etc. It's not pointless to want to get the flight model closer to full fidelity without actually going all the way to full fidelity. There is no reason this has to be an all-or-nothing situation. It's also important to remember that these are fictional vehicles, and BIS can take some liberties with their flight characteristics.

Edited September 2, 2014 by roshnak

[bigpickle 0]

Has the throttle movement been looked at yet? all of the increase and decrease is mapped to the top 40% of the traverse.