Legal discussion regarding Steam Workshop

[froggyluv 2136]

the fact you dont actually own anything you just "buy" the right to play the games through their service. Break their rules and all the games you have are gone.

.

If we can no longer own the games then why are we expected to pay the same premium cost to merely 'lease' them?

[rksl-rock 1301]

If we can no longer own the games then why are we expected to pay the same premium cost to merely 'lease' them?

Well since Steam and just close your account without notice if you say or do something they dont like and you are left with nothing. Then you are just "leasing" arent you.

[vegeta897 13]

You don't "own" the games you buy in a retail store either. You never legally owned games you bought. You are purchasing a license to install and play them.

Steam does not just close accounts willy nilly. Stop creating paranoia. You have to do things that are very clearly illegal for Steam to take away your whole account. Even when hacking in games, you are only banned from the game's multiplayer. You don't lose the game or your account. The list of things that can cause you to lose your account are very obviously serious offenses, not something you could do by accident. Certainly not by "saying" something they "don't like" :rolleyes: (where did you get this idea?) Steam support is also good about recovering your account if you lost it.

[roshnak 41]

Well the concern is that since i refuse to use the "service" others will do it on my behalf without me being aware. Valve can then claim rights to my IP without my agreement/knowledge. Now IF i find out i can fight Valve and the idiot that uploaded it for my rights but its me that has to fight to be recognized as the author and owner of the IP. And if Valve dont acknowledge anything what do i have to do to get my IP and rights "returned" to me? Its about me investing time and effort to prove something is mine in the first place.

I understand the frustration with it being difficult to be recognized as the actual author of content on Steam Workshop, but, like I said, you wouldn't want it to necessarily be easy, either. You wouldn't want me to be able to just file complaints with all of your mods and have the assets all automatically taken down, right? I guess that's just a problem with large scale distribution platforms, in general. Things just get more bureaucratic and take more time, since the people in charge don't know anyone involved.

Also, I don't really think "returned" is the right word to use when discussing your rights in this context. Since the agreement grants Valve non-exclusive rights, doesn't that mean you still have your rights, they just also have the rights to use your stuff? In that case, shouldn't we be talking about "revoking" the rights from Valve, instead? The only reason I'm bringing this up is that the way you phrased it kind of makes it sound like, if your stuff was uploaded to Steam Workshop, you would no longer have the right to, say, sell your stuff.

But, honestly, I see this as the bigger problem with Steam Workshop. To me, it seems very unlikely that Valve will abuse the EULA, inentionally harm or steal from users of Steam Workshop, or even care about what people are uploading for Arma 3, especially given that their money makers are DOTA 2, TF2, and CS:GO. At the same time, I think it's fairly obvious that the license agreement is designed to give Valve the absolute maximum level of protection possible, at the potential expense of the content creators, and I can understand why content creators would rather utilize a distribution platform that is designed to protect them first. I think it's perfectly valid for content creators to be extra cautious about this stuff, especially since most good 3D artists inevitably have to deal with someone uploading or even selling their work without permission. And, ultimately, it can be difficult to opt-out of Steam Workshop if others choose to upload your stuff.

The list of things that can cause you to lose your account are very obviously serious offenses, not something you could do by accident

I don't know, man, I'm guilty of two of those things.

[rksl-rock 1301]

You don't "own" the games you buy in a retail store either. You never legally owned games you bought. You are purchasing a license to install and play them.

That is correct but once you have that copy no one can take it off you legally. Not quite the same when Steam decides you broke one of their rules.

Steam does not just close accounts willy nilly. Stop creating paranoia. You have to do things that are very clearly illegal for Steam to take away your whole account. Even when hacking in games, you are only banned from the game's multiplayer. You don't lose the game or your account. The list of things that can cause you to lose your account are very obviously serious offenses, not something you could do by accident. Certainly not by "saying" something they "don't like" :rolleyes: (where did you get this idea?) Steam support is also good about recovering your account if you lost it.

Why am i creating paranoia? Just spend 5 minutes googleing "Steam closed my account" or similar. A friend of mine lost over a 100 games because he called a moderator a "moron" in the forums. He didnt hack, cheat, share his account etc. The moderator was rude and heavy handed. Tim called him on it and lost his account and games.

Its not paranoia.

---------- Post added at 20:20 ---------- Previous post was at 20:08 ----------

Also, I don't really think "returned" is the right word to use when discussing your rights in this context.

I use the term "returned" to illustrate the act of acknowledging the 'exchange' of rights. Basically if someone agree to share my rights with Valve without my consent. I want notice from Valve that they have acknowledged my claim and are relinquishing their claim to rights over my IP. So "returning" my rights to me. See what i mean?

But, honestly, I see this as the bigger problem with Steam Workshop. To me, it seems very unlikely that Valve will abuse the EULA, inentionally harm or steal from users of Steam Workshop, or even care about what people are uploading for Arma 3, especially given that their money makers are DOTA 2, TF2, and CS:GO. At the same time, I think it's fairly obvious that the license agreement is designed to give Valve the absolute maximum level of protection possible, at the potential expense of the content creators, and I can understand why content creators would rather utilize a distribution platform that is designed to protect them first. I think it's perfectly valid for content creators to be extra cautious about this stuff, especially since most good 3D artists inevitably have to deal with someone uploading or even selling their work without permission. And, ultimately, it can be difficult to opt-out of Steam Workshop if others choose to upload your stuff.

Honestly i don't disagree. But if i tabulate all the pros an cons in using steam workshop I end up with more cons than pros.

No other distribution service demands irrevocable rights to our IP. Hundreds of addon makers/contributors have had or are having IP issues and most report horror stories about the lack of support or communication from Valve. It really doesn't give me or anyone else ive spoken to about this a warm feeling. So until that changes some people around here are going to have to accept that wont use it. That really is the end of the debate for me.

Steam Workshop does not offer me peace of mind, security or confidence enough to sign an agreement allowing anyone control over my IP.

[vegeta897 13]

Why am i creating paranoia? Just spend 5 minutes googleing "Steam closed my account" or similar. A friend of mine lost over a 100 games because he called a moderator a "moron" in the forums. He didnt hack, cheat, share his account etc. The moderator was rude and heavy handed. Tim called him on it and lost his account and games.

When was this? I highly doubt that he would be unable to get his account back if he contacted steam support. Interactions on SPUF should result in bans from SPUF, not revoked steam accounts. I would like to know how Steam responded when he told them he lost his account for calling a forum moderator a moron.

[rksl-rock 1301]

When was this? I highly doubt that he would be unable to get his account back if he contacted steam support. Interactions on SPUF should result in bans from SPUF, not revoked steam accounts. I would like to know how Steam responded when he told them he lost his account for calling a forum moderator a moron.

About a year ago. He lost everything permanently. The situation escalated pretty quickly, but much past the initial exchange i can't comment, I know hes not used steam since. I know there were emails back and forth but I didn't see the content. He just said he was robbed by steam for calling out a bullying moderator. They removed the threads very quickly but I know he tried to get his account back several times but was permanently banned for his conduct toward Steam representatives. It wouldn't surprise me if the content of the email was filled with choice language though. Tim is a bit...salty... in the choice of his language.

[vegeta897 13]

About a year ago. He lost everything permanently. The situation escalated pretty quickly, but much past the initial exchange i can't comment, I know hes not used steam since. I know there were emails back and forth but I didn't see the content. He just said he was robbed by steam for calling out a bullying moderator. They removed the threads very quickly but I know he tried to get his account back several times but was permanently banned for his conduct toward Steam representatives. It wouldn't surprise me if the content of the email was filled with choice language though. Tim is a bit...salty... in the choice of his language.

I would have to agree with you on that case then, losing your account for a forum scrape and then not getting it back just for being upset about the ordeal sounds a little unfair. Still, I've heard stories like this that end happily too, especially being generous with refunds.

[BL1P 35]

CTI is a good example.

Originally by Mike Melvin then Cleanrock(ofp) then Benny and BIS(a2/oa) now on steam workshop by quite a few others(a3).

Should these others be able to charge for their version ?

Doesn't the IP in this case belong to Mike Melvin ?

I know its a mission but quite a few mods I have seen released of late could easily be mission scripts rather than separate mods.

[L3TUC3 32]

CTI is a good example.

Originally by Mike Melvin then Cleanrock(ofp) then Benny and BIS(a2/oa) now on steam workshop by quite a few others(a3).

Should these others be able to charge for their version ?

Doesn't the IP in this case belong to Mike Melvin ?

I know its a mission but quite a few mods I have seen released of late could easily be mission scripts rather than separate mods.

Depends on the included license and it's privisions to allow for derivative works of it with the original mission/script as a base. But a concept is hard to nail down, anyone can recrceate without copying as long as none of the original scripts were touched.

Most people just ignore the license or author's wishes anyway. Kinda dickish.

[BL1P 35]

Depends on the included license and it's privisions to allow for derivative works of it with the original mission/script as a base. But a concept is hard to nail down, anyone can recrceate without copying as long as none of the original scripts were touched.

Most people just ignore the license or author's wishes anyway. Kinda dickish.

O right I see thanks.

How would anyone be able to tell if the scripts where copied or not? surely the scripting language is the same add in a few //Created by me and remove the //Created by him stuff and who could tell who wrote what ?

I just find it hard to see how something like this can be monitored by steam.

"Honest I didn't copy the scripts" kinda hard to prove otherwise.

[.kju 3245]

Mike Melvin made Warfare for BI for A1/A2. So BI had licensed it or it became their property.

So for people building on-top of the Warfare code, it should be a matter of the license BI released it under.

Since end of last year its under APL at least.

Benny did rewrite most/all of the code at some point as far as I know.

The crCTI version was also rewritten either to large parts or completely.

[BL1P 35]

;2726041']Mike Melvin made Warfare for BI for A1/A2. So BI had licensed it or it became their property.

So for people building on-top of the Warfare code' date=' it should be a matter of the license BI released it under.

Since end of last year its under APL at least.

Benny did rewrite most/all of the code at some point as far as I know.

The crCTI version was also rewritten either to large parts or completely.[/quote']

Ahh... The bit I didn't know was that Melvin wrote the Warfare for BI for a1/a2.

I knew about cleanrock only because I was part of the crCTI community at the time of its creation.

I speak with Benny a bit and have edited his scripts for my personal rubbish so yes I knew his scripts are all his own work. (with his permission and not to sell :) )

"So for people building on-top of the Warfare code"

Wouldn't that only cover work on the BI created code and not anyone else`s code used in their pre BI Warfare/CTI missions ?

I am just curious as to how anyone could actually create a New bit of code considering its almost certainly been done already at some point?

I suppose because at the time the missions and mods where all free that people didn't licence the code so now anyone can use that code ?

Can you even copyright code ?

P.S only using CTI as an example.

[.kju 3245]

If you take European and German patent law and the extensive discussion around the topic as a reference,

there are very high requirements to be able to claim that.

What you should do is ask someone for the permission to use his code (depending on the license provided if any).

Also modifying it slightly doesn't change the equation.

However taking small parts (few lines) at times, or write code yourself with happens to be similar or even the same as by someone else, it is fine.

Note: this is only true for custom code. General functions / code patterns and such no one can claim ownership over.

[Tonci87 163]

Guys imagine this scenario:

What if the DayZ Mod was originally released on the workshop, would Valve have the right to claim a cut from the Profits BIS makes with the full game?

[Kerc Kasha 102]

Guys imagine this scenario:

What if the DayZ Mod was originally released on the workshop, would Valve have the right to claim a cut from the Profits BIS makes with the full game?

They already do because it's distributed via steam

[Tonci87 163]

Imagine it was not

[pettka 694]

Could you, please, keep your imagination about DayZ and stay on the topic? :icon_twisted:

[.kju 3245]

How should they have the right to?

Edited July 10, 2014 by .kju [PvPscene]

[chrisb 196]

How do we keep these types of games going.. longevity, quality, hobby

I would love to see bought content.

For this series it would be ideal, it happens already, we need it here and now really.

Quality, & game evolution, may come down to, bought content, be it dev or player made.

Its hard, people want to protect their work, understandable, but we need to sort it out really, this game needs it, could be a massive step forward, for me it would be.

Collect virtually, as you would physically.. I've already started with another game, could be a good way forward for players and game developers.

Any type of content, from a unit, vehicle, game-play format, ai, the list goes on. Custom build your game up, using whatever you need to get your perfect game built.

For this series, it starts with BI saying 'yes' to allow it, then Steam perhaps to host or whatever. Then, once that is done, people will make 'to sell', paying percentages out where needed, build it in to the overall selling price. Those that buy, will want it, those that don't want to buy, won't have it.

Upset public servers, who cares, groups will invest in quality content, servers will surface to host that content to the wider public.

Game evolution, the future perhaps, for quality games that want longevity and to be funded that way.

Games that are really hobbies, not simply throw away gaming, this series is one such game, there are many others, some even have paid content now.

Come on BI, allow 'paid for' content...

Simple. :rolleyes:;)

Note: I don't play many games, the ones I do play, I tend to stick with. Some players I know buy 10-15 games a year, average £20-£40 give or take a few £'s. Think, that is wasted money in many cases, because it's played and forgotten, great for those that want that, I would spend as much as those people, but on paid content for the games I want to play for many years.

[defk0n_NL 2]

No, armaholic is not stealing my work. And i say that without a doubt, because i trust the owner (foxhound), and because i know from previous interaction that he and his staff can be trusted when it comes to taking down IP infringing content, as well as with dealing with conflicts and alike. That is something i don't have for Steam Workshop: trust. Moreso, their history shows it is slow and unwillingly to take down IP infringing content, and the report/reply process is a real headache. Why should i jump in such a boat, especially when there are better (for me) alternatives?

Armaholic and PlayWithSix may not be literally stealing your work but they do infringe on peoples copyrights. They redistribute peoples mod without asking the creator then make money of other peoples content via ads and are able to spam the forums vis a vis "service". I think the whole steam workshop discussion pales to that kind of sleezy.

Steam is not making money directly from your addons.

[smokedog3para 365]

Armaholic and PlayWithSix may not be literally stealing your work but they do infringe on peoples copyrights. They redistribute peoples mod without asking the creator.

armaholic does not redistribute without the owners permissions play with six does and also foxhound asks you if its ok to make money from vids ,again play with six does not even ask if you want your addon on there he just puts it on there and makes money from ads and traffic

[Guest]

Anybody is free to ask us to remove their content and in such case we will make sure the content will never again be available on Armaholic.

Please, leave us out of this Steam discussion, we try to make a community effort here and if you dont like it feel free to contact me asap and all your work is removed from Armaholic within a minute!

It really amazes me to read such crap posts.....people use file hosters who make millions and believe me.....they have not a single community effort thought in mind....yet we have ads to pay the bills and people have problems with those ads, block them and complain/refer to them as kind of a complaint.

Maybe its time I add another ad so I can pay a lawyer to write use a proper license agreement.....you know.........like Steam.

[add on]

Oh, and we have permission to post our mirrors here. Since I am no longer a moderator you can just add me to the ignore list so you wont be bothered with my spam.

And, if you think nobody should be allowed to post mirrors here make a suggestion to the BI forum moderators. It was done like that in the past and that worked out kind of well.

Free the BI forums of effort spam!!!!!

Edited July 10, 2014 by Guest

[rksl-rock 1301]

Anybody is free to ask us to remove their content and in such case we will make sure the content will never again be available on Armaholic.

Please, leave us out of this Steam discussion, we try to make a community effort here and if you dont like it feel free to contact me asap and all your work is removed from Armaholic within a minute!

It really amazes me to read such crap posts.....people use file hosters who make millions and believe me.....they have not a single community effort thought in mind....yet we have ads to pay the bills and people have problems with those ads, block them and complain/refer to them as kind of a complaint.

Maybe its time I add another ad so I can pay a lawyer to write use a proper license agreement.....you know.........like Steam.

[add on]

Oh, and we have permission to post our mirrors here. Since I am no longer a moderator you can just add me to the ignore list so you wont be bothered with my spam.

And, if you think nobody should be allowed to post mirrors here make a suggestion to the BI forum moderators. It was done like that in the past and that worked out kind of well.

Free the BI forums of effort spam!!!!!

Foxhound, I dont think some people understand the distinction between ArmAholic/Fan sites and SWS.

And most of the 'serious' (not sure if thats the best description) addon makers in the community appreciate Armaholic's service far more than they say. Besides most of us have the clause below or similar in our EULAs:

"DISTRIBUTION: You may distribute the original .PBO files within this download freely, so long as the PBO files are unmodified and the Readme and EULA files are included. Under the following conditions:..."

Which allows people to mirror and rehost our packages freely. Most of the current licenses don't factor in services like Steam Workshop etc. I'm in the middle of redrafting ours to exclude SWS use at the moment.

[Bouben 3]

Anybody is free to ask us to remove their content and in such case we will make sure the content will never again be available on Armaholic.

Please, leave us out of this Steam discussion, we try to make a community effort here and if you dont like it feel free to contact me asap and all your work is removed from Armaholic within a minute!

It really amazes me to read such crap posts.....people use file hosters who make millions and believe me.....they have not a single community effort thought in mind....yet we have ads to pay the bills and people have problems with those ads, block them and complain/refer to them as kind of a complaint.

Good points.