Ending theories (Win related, spoilers of course)

[lugiahua 26]

BTW, wouldn't Captain Miller outranks Maj. Dutton? Since he was in the Navy, he would be equivalent to an Army Colonel.

 

I also assume that CSAT attempt to retake the device to prevent it's leak to public. Who knows what org Solomon could sell it to.

[major_barnes1987 33]

Highest ranking in CTRG's Group 14 perhaps but he was still taking direct orders from Maj. Dutton to retrieve the device, not destroy it.

 

Then maybe the whole group 15 agreed to hid or destroy it who knows.If i was the high ranking officer in the field and command has given me the order to retrieve such a weapon of mass destruction i would totally destroy it.I don't care if i live the rest of of my life as a rogue,my conscience would be at peace.

[drebin052 324]

BTW, wouldn't Captain Miller outranks Maj. Dutton? Since he was in the Navy, he would be equivalent to an Army Colonel.

 

Miller's original profile stated that he was a captain in the SBS but ever since the devs changed the settings after 2012, his background is more muddy. For all we know, his rank could just be a cover while working under CTRG, especially given that we now know he was lying throughout all of The East Wind about being a specops team from the Royal Navy.

 

Then maybe the whole group 15 agreed to hid or destroy it who knows.If i was the high ranking officer in the field and command has given me the order to retrieve such a weapon of mass destruction i would totally destroy it.I don't care if i live the rest of of my life as a rogue,my conscience would be at peace.

 

I doubt it.

 

BI has always tended to choose the "grey" or darker endings (like Deception for the PMC campaign) as canon for every single one of their campaigns, so I'm sure that Miller wouldn't have dumped it into the ocean. But naturally we won't know for sure unless BI continues the story in some DLC or something.

[lugiahua 26]

I am pretty certain that the device was recovered, not destroyed.

 

- There is no point of the mission if Miller was planning to destroy it. NATO could simply bomb the facility without risking two CTRG teams

- Miller was very eager in recovering the device, in East Wind he was willing to sacrifice his whole team, and risking whole NATO brigade just to acquire one of such weapons. (if you picked the "bad" ending)

It doesn't make sense why would he dump it in the ocean when he finally gets one.

[heavygunner 179]

He defintely recovered it and the "safe hands" are his hands.

[Wiki 1558]

He defintely recovered it and the "safe hands" are his hands.

Well, that is in Apex.

The previous poster was talking about the one in East Wind.

In EW, the canon ending is the one in which you don't know what happens to the CTRG team (you follow NATO orders in the last mission).

So, in that situation, you don't know at all what happens to Miller, CTRG nor the device.

[GirlieAllie 19]

I read through this thread and I feel like I oughta make a few comments I don't see anyone else talking about. I also vomit words and can't write succinctly so I'll hide my garbage under a spoiler tag for you.

 

 

It's near impossible for CSAT to have retrieved the weapon right under the nose of NATO forces in the area.

 

NATO was displayed as having severely poor intel, and security for that matter, earlier in WIN and at the end of ADAPT. Firing on the FIA at the airfield (Miller's sabotage or not), losing literally every frontline defensive position at the end of their failed initial assault in one fell covert op (apparently, the single sentry that saw any enemies and lived was Kerry, assigned to a joke patrol while under suspicion), shelling civilians in Pygros, etc.

 

And, presumably, at the higher levels Miller's activities were sanctioned and maybe even supported by NATO - even though Armstrong considers Miller 'not a friendly' early on, once he confirms his identity he quickly disallows Kerry from aiding him and cuts the sentence short, apparently angry.

 

So, it's entirely possible that they legitimately were that disorganized and could not find the CSAT research group, especially since the 'final push' to separate and conquer the remaining enemy forces had a serious case of rushing and not covering their tracks. (RIP, Golf, may we never shell an enemy position and not secure it again...) Or, they legitimately overlooked the position to give Miller and his team the conditions they needed to retrieve the functional Device safely. Safely for the device that is. Not for James.

 

 

Miller isn't abiding by NATO, he's out for the Device on his own terms, he probably stole it at the end of Apex.

 

While this is possible (and would make for an okay twist - I don't think many people had a high opinion of Miller by the end of The East Wind, he'd make an alright antagonist) he's in for a serious long con, and since he's in the briefing room cutscene at the end of Apex Protocol, he's overstaying his welcome by a lot if he's in for himself only.

 

Also, why don't we look back to the 'secret room' in the FFV showcase, Marksmen DLC? It takes place before (I want to say a year, uncertain) before the main campaign, but it's a building with FIA men inside of it, along with a seismic map whiteboard and a laptop with Device Readings. CTRG has been helping the FIA for quite a while before the campaign, and they're probably the ones supplying and helping the FIA with that intel. Miller has been given a lot of help from the CTRG (and NATO by extent) and he's apparently left a bit of a paper trail, evidenced by that room and the picture that Gen. Armstrong managed to find for his whiteboard at the start of Win. I doubt he would get terribly far at the end of Apex if he didn't do his job, retrieving the Device safely.

 

And by "In Safe Hands" I equated that to him handing it off to whoever is reverse-engineering or deploying the Device. Having nukes is one thing, but having a weapon that can cause massive damage with no trace distinguishable from natural disasters? Hoo mama, that's the good stuff right there – and why CSAT did NOT want to give a fully functional example to their enemies.

 

Lastly, though this doesn't have to do with the ending I saw it discussed a bit earlier, it's my opinion the AAF took out Task Force Aegis due to Miller's arrival at Maxwell - the two events happen minutes apart. I think CSAT wanted the AAF to take out Miller's group, but the only way to do this without alerting the rest of Aegis was to literally kill everyone, somehow. So they planned a surprisingly smart ambush, for the downput 'greenbacks' (limiting island traffic, then ambushing the island's NATO commander and killing him before setting off the rest of the assault) and killed everyone, blaming it on an FIA terrorist attack backed by NATO.

 

Anyway, now that I've ruined my reputation by being a BIG NERD I can have a nice nap.

[AJE2 3]

I read through this thread and I feel like I oughta make a few comments I don't see anyone else talking about. I also vomit words and can't write succinctly so I'll hide my garbage under a spoiler tag for you.

 

 

NATO was displayed as having severely poor intel, and security for that matter, earlier in WIN and at the end of ADAPT. Firing on the FIA at the airfield (Miller's sabotage or not), losing literally every frontline defensive position at the end of their failed initial assault in one fell covert op (apparently, the single sentry that saw any enemies and lived was Kerry, assigned to a joke patrol while under suspicion), shelling civilians in Pygros, etc.

 

And, presumably, at the higher levels Miller's activities were sanctioned and maybe even supported by NATO - even though Armstrong considers Miller 'not a friendly' early on, once he confirms his identity he quickly disallows Kerry from aiding him and cuts the sentence short, apparently angry.

 

So, it's entirely possible that they legitimately were that disorganized and could not find the CSAT research group, especially since the 'final push' to separate and conquer the remaining enemy forces had a serious case of rushing and not covering their tracks. (RIP, Golf, may we never shell an enemy position and not secure it again...) Or, they legitimately overlooked the position to give Miller and his team the conditions they needed to retrieve the functional Device safely. Safely for the device that is. Not for James.

 

 

While this is possible (and would make for an okay twist - I don't think many people had a high opinion of Miller by the end of The East Wind, he'd make an alright antagonist) he's in for a serious long con, and since he's in the briefing room cutscene at the end of Apex Protocol, he's overstaying his welcome by a lot if he's in for himself only.

 

Also, why don't we look back to the 'secret room' in the FFV showcase, Marksmen DLC? It takes place before (I want to say a year, uncertain) before the main campaign, but it's a building with FIA men inside of it, along with a seismic map whiteboard and a laptop with Device Readings. CTRG has been helping the FIA for quite a while before the campaign, and they're probably the ones supplying and helping the FIA with that intel. Miller has been given a lot of help from the CTRG (and NATO by extent) and he's apparently left a bit of a paper trail, evidenced by that room and the picture that Gen. Armstrong managed to find for his whiteboard at the start of Win. I doubt he would get terribly far at the end of Apex if he didn't do his job, retrieving the Device safely.

 

And by "In Safe Hands" I equated that to him handing it off to whoever is reverse-engineering or deploying the Device. Having nukes is one thing, but having a weapon that can cause massive damage with no trace distinguishable from natural disasters? Hoo mama, that's the good stuff right there – and why CSAT did NOT want to give a fully functional example to their enemies.

 

Lastly, though this doesn't have to do with the ending I saw it discussed a bit earlier, it's my opinion the AAF took out Task Force Aegis due to Miller's arrival at Maxwell - the two events happen minutes apart. I think CSAT wanted the AAF to take out Miller's group, but the only way to do this without alerting the rest of Aegis was to literally kill everyone, somehow. So they planned a surprisingly smart ambush, for the downput 'greenbacks' (limiting island traffic, then ambushing the island's NATO commander and killing him before setting off the rest of the assault) and killed everyone, blaming it on an FIA terrorist attack backed by NATO.

 

Anyway, now that I've ruined my reputation by being a BIG NERD I can have a nice nap.

That was actually very well written, no need to hide it or be embarrassed about it.

 

That being said, I haven't actually played the game (I keep getting killed by enemies I can't see), just watched other playthroughs, so this is mostly based on those.

 

Miller had to have kept the device for other purposes; destroying a superweapon would have next to no effect.  There had to be a huge Manhattan-like project behind that device, and even if the Eastwind device that was taken was the only one they made (I highly doubt it, we built thousands of nukes as soon as we could, in fact it's very likely that the Eastwind device on Altis was a different one than the one used on Tanoa), the knowledge and resources to build another one are still available to the CSAT.  Destroying it would be like Japanese special forces capturing and destroying Little Boy on Tinian before it got loaded onto the Enola Gay to be dropped on Hiroshima.  There would be plenty of other bombs under construction in the US, ready to be dropped a few weeks later.  As I said earlier, there's probably more than 1 machine in existence at the time of the campaign.  To permanently destroy the Eastwind Device and the program which developed it (let's call it the Eastwind Project), the countless scientists and research labs in the various CSAT nations involved in its development would have to be destroyed, as well as all the information related to it stored in secret databases and countless servers almost anywhere in the world.  While that would make for an impressive Special Forces campaign, destroying that much is completely unrealistic (all information would probably be backed up in at least 3 locations at any given time- that's what I'd do with that information).  So it's safe to say that the genie (the knowledge to create Eastwind Devices) is pretty much out of the bottle, and it can't realistically be put back in.

 

This means that the captured Eastwind Device had to be used for 1 of 2 purposes: Reverse engineering it, so that a sort of Mutually Assured Destruction with CSAT can be achieved (which would presumably prevent the widespread use of those devices), or developing a countermeasure or defense against it (I'll call such a program the "Westwind Project").  Since Mutually Assured Destruction would pretty much guarantee both sides to know of each other's possession of Eastwind Devices, and Miller apparently didn't want the world to know about them, I think he wanted to counter it with a Westwind Project.  It would make sense that he would want to keep knowledge of that secret, as if CSAT knew there was a Westwind Project, they would probably try to find a way to counter it in turn.  If the existence of the Eastwind Device was public knowledge, CSAT would assume NATO/CTRG would be working on a Westwind Project to counter it (even if they didn't know a working example had been captured), and plan a counter-countermeasure accordingly.  I think that's why Miller probably didn't leak its existence to the press the way the Apex protocol was exposed.

[lexx 1392]

There are at least 4 or 5 devices on Altis alone. We can see them in the final mission. Chances are, there are more in other places. And yes, Miller tries to steal only one of them.

[M. Glade 524]

With this Multiplayer Apex campaign, my whole knowledge of the story turned into a shitstorm.

 

Either way you go, in the Altis campaign (to support NATO or to defect and help Memer) the devices' situation is still unknown. Imo, I'd like to see another campaign (solo) which'll clear out more of this and we'll possibly see more use of the actual map.

 

Not extremely happy with what BI did with this Apex thing (story-wise), especially with what happens to Altis after. 

[Blazeg24 1]

Ok, so here is my understanding: The weapon was built on Altis as the research base was on the island, but CSAT had control over the island for a very long time with the AAF, and they probably didn't know about the device so CSAT could have easily moved it so why didnt they? A sentence from the final mission in the "Apex Protocol" says that "Tremors are its starting sequence" which means the earthquakes are just the device preparing to make the tsunami, so why was the device armed on altis. Altough miller continued with the one device on tanoa instead of taking another i have a theory for that, those other devices were being built and they only had enough resources to build one completely, and from what i think is that the scientists there when they knew the CSAT soldiers where coming they deleted the data to only allow CSAT one weapon. Another thing that interests  me is Group 14 actually even apart of Britain or NATO forces? In the East Wind Campaign crossroads says "We have finally identified Captin Scott Miller" something Kerry says makes crossroads say "Listen corporal, you stay the hell away from those brits and their black ops bullshit!" Who is captain miller? Is he apart of a private army or a secret cell within the British special forces that barely anyone knows about that wants the device or something? because NATO doesnt trust him, the rest of the CTRG groups dont know whats going on, the only person who kinda did was the British officer in the Apex Protocol, but this still leaves some question unanswered, one is where the hell did Kerry and any survivors he picked up go if you choose the ending in which NATO loses? And the Apex Protocol showing crossroads doesnt mean that NATO won on altis, he could've escaped along with the AAF general and peace talks begun. i know it probably doesnt make a whole lot of sense but this is what my thoughts are

[drebin052 324]

The weapon was built on Altis as the research base was on the island, but CSAT had control over the island for a very long time with the AAF, and they probably didn't know about the device so CSAT could have easily moved it so why didnt they?

 

 

CSAT only just recently started building the airbase on Altis sometime before the events of Drawdown 2035. The news ticker bar in the Survive intro mentions the airbase being "green lighted" by Akhanteros; no doubt with one of the conditions of allowing CSAT to test the device on Altis being financial and military aid. Prior to this, CSAT forces on Altis operated jointly (albeit reluctantly) with the NATO-led Task Force Aegis until TF Aegis' mandate expired and would become restricted to just Stratis afterwards.

 

The rest of the AAF were oblivious to the Eastwind device and only Akhanteros (Phalanx) knew about its existence.

 

so why was the device armed on altis

 

 

Testing, not arming it for real. CSAT needed a suitable location that had little tectonic movement to test the device's capabilities without causing a natural disaster (unlike on Tanoa).

 

Another thing that interests  me is Group 14 actually even apart of Britain or NATO forces?

 

 

Group 14 is apart of CTRG, which in turn is a multinational special forces group directly under the command of NATO. This is why the CTRG logo has NATO/OTAN lettering and the crest of the NATO flag. And none of the CTRG groups consist exclusively of British spec ops either; that's just the cover they assumed when working alongside TF Aegis and the FIA since we know that Group 15, which you play as in Apex Protocol, has American members in it.

 

Presumably, the other Groups consist of other nationalities like German or Canadian as well (you can see a lot of different Groups operating in various regions throughout the world in the intro for Apex Protocol).

 

In the East Wind Campaign crossroads says "We have finally identified Captin Scott Miller" something Kerry says makes crossroads say "Listen corporal, you stay the hell away from those brits and their black ops bullshit!" Who is captain miller? Is he apart of a private army or a secret cell within the British special forces that barely anyone knows about that wants the device or something? because NATO doesnt trust him, the rest of the CTRG groups dont know whats going on, the only person who kinda did was the British officer in the Apex Protocol

 

 

Armstrong wasn't aware of CTRG's presence until Moral Fibre when he is informed about its existence by NATO MEDCOM. This is why he tells Kerry to stay away from Miller and his team, not because he thinks they're PMCs or from some non-NATO organisation.

 

The rest of the CTRG Groups didn't know about Group 14's fate after the Altis Incident because they're presumably a top secret group even within CTRG itself since they're charged with the highest priority of locating and securing the Eastwind device (which is why Riker thought they "went dark after Altis").

 

but this still leaves some question unanswered, one is where the hell did Kerry and any survivors he picked up go if you choose the ending in which NATO loses?

 

 

Given that it's pretty much WW3 between NATO and CSAT in that ending, you don't need to guess what happens afterwards. Either way, Game Over isn't canonical so there is no need to find out anything more about it.

 

And the Apex Protocol showing crossroads doesnt mean that NATO won on altis, he could've escaped along with the AAF general and peace talks begun.

 

 

What?

 

Why would Armstrong (Crossroads) escape with Akhanteros? Akhanteros is the one who surrendered to NATO and is the one who offered the unconditional surrender of all the remaining AAF forces. He didn't escape from NATO's grasp.

 

The peace talks only began because NATO had no intention of staying on Altis (the epilogue for the "good" ending shows this) since their main focus is now on countering CSAT in the Pacific. The new government on Altis needed to formulate a way to rebuild their country while at the same time rebuilding ties with both the West and CSAT for support.

[Uri Kanter 0]

On 20/11/2016 at 8:37 AM, Blazeg24 said:

 In the East Wind Campaign crossroads says "We have finally identified Captin Scott Miller" something Kerry says makes crossroads say "Listen corporal, you stay the hell away from those brits and their black ops bullshit!" Who is captain miller? Is he apart of a private army or a secret cell within the British special forces that barely anyone knows about that wants the device or something? because NATO doesnt trust him, the rest of the CTRG groups dont know whats going on, the only person who kinda did was the British officer in the Apex Protocol, but this still leaves some question unanswered, one is where the hell did Kerry and any survivors he picked up go if you choose the ending in which NATO loses? And the Apex Protocol showing crossroads doesnt mean that NATO won on altis, he could've escaped along with the AAF general and peace talks begun. i know it probably doesnt make a whole lot of sense but this is what my thoughts are

Look kid, I don't know what they teach in COD school but Black Operations (and also Black Projects) are deniable Operations run by deniable assets that the government won't publicly acknowledge to anyone; And as far as any foreign relations are concerned they they never happened: That means that the British Military probably won't admit they even know a Captain Miller and the only way for NATO to get the information on him would be through counter-intelligence like CIA or so, That is why Kerry calls them 'Spooks' and why Crossroads refer to them as 'Black Ops' as opposed to just any Special Forces.

Furthermore, I Imagine that in Black Operations the only people with a full picture of what is going on are the 1 or 2 people at the top and the rest are on a 'Need to know', so that part is very authentic to how the military works. Command sometimes choose to share information to motivate soldiers but more often then not they just give order,  why?  As a Soldier that is for them to know and for you to follow to the letter.

So to answer your question, Miller is a Ghost.  and the rest you can find out in End Game.

To me what is puzzling is how Crossroads would court-martial Kerry if he could, Are USMC officers really that dumb? Or was it just his way to let Kerry know that he won't get any special hero parade?

 

[ravenholme 50]

2 hours ago, Uri Kanter said:

Look kid, I don't know what they teach in COD school but Black Operations (and also Black Projects) are deniable Operations run by deniable assets that the government won't publicly acknowledge to anyone; And as far as any foreign relations are concerned they they never happened: That means that the British Military probably won't admit they even know a Captain Miller and the only way for NATO to get the information on him would be through counter-intelligence like CIA or so, That is why Kerry calls them 'Spooks' and why Crossroads refer to them as 'Black Ops' as opposed to just any Special Forces.

Furthermore, I Imagine that in Black Operations the only people with a full picture of what is going on are the 1 or 2 people at the top and the rest are on a 'Need to know', so that part is very authentic to how the military works. Command sometimes choose to share information to motivate soldiers but more often then not they just give order,  why?  As a Soldier that is for them to know and for you to follow to the letter.

So to answer your question, Miller is a Ghost.  and the rest you can find out in End Game.

To me what is puzzling is how Crossroads would court-martial Kerry if he could, Are USMC officers really that dumb? Or was it just his way to let Kerry know that he won't get any special hero parade?

 

 

I broadly agree, but the Apex campaign makes it obvious that CTRG is NOT a British-only initiative, as the teams on Tanoa and their CO are all American, so it is a joint British-American group at the very least.

[maxl30 81]

It can be asumed that the "East Wind" device is made on Malden, CTRG is a (for the publicity hidden) part of the NATO and is trained for special and political difficult missions.

The research of the "East Wind" device from NATO is a sign that the first way (as normal JTAC on the frontline) of the "East Wind" campaign is true.

The CTRG Operation on Altis to capture one of the "East Wind" devices was failed and CSAT evacuate it over the habour under the military complex near the bay of Pofkas (maybe they relocate the "East Wind" device to the "Feres Airfield" and evacuate them with (maybe) Y-32 Xián´s like in the last part of the "Tanks DLC" campaign).

After that CSAT had no interests to Altis, they beginn after the "East Wind" campaign peace talks in Kavala.

 

The CTRG relocate his CTRG group in asia (15) to Tanoa (thats a part of the Horizon Islands wich are after the independent of France a legitimately country) and start the global "East Wind" device researche mission, after some incidents CTRG figured out that CSATs "East Wind" device was relocated to Tanoa and everything else is part of the "Apex Protocol".