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batto

Ukraine General

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Dont get me wrong, i agree but do the goverment and the EU,Nato will do the same? time will tell.

Of course they will, what would you expect a military invasion? NATO is not like the USSR that forced countries to join them.

For example Sweden in the past voted not to join it.

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and on iraq try almost 2 million but who's counting! and they still die today so yeah they still better off without Saddam, same with Libia,Afghanistan,Egypte and Syria and i know there leaders are no saints but they better off a decade ago then now, when they die in droves because off US and nato. and same with Russia,keep believing they are the root off all your problems and sorrows but better look at home first!

Total BS. No respected organisation has put the Iraq war death toll to 2 millions, or even one. And don't pull any ridiculous one liner about them being biased; When an organisation attributes over 100,000 civilian deaths to the Iraqi war, they're not pro-US.

Oh, they were better of with Saddam? If we disregard facts like how the Iran-Iraq war caused far more deaths than the Iraq war, or the WMD genocide of the Kurds that caused over 180,000 civilian deaths directly by the Iraqi regime, it's still idiotic. What you're saying is that if the overthrow of a dictator would cause more deaths than not doing it, nothing should be done. By that logic Great Britain shouldn't have declared war against Germany, because if we'd let Hitler have his way, there'd probably have been less than 73 million deaths.

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Written by Vit Hassan, interesting reading, but still with him you have to take his stories with large bags of salt.

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Such an irony, "new" Ukranian government sending Special Forces and police to beat up pro-Russian protestors. Yet when such thing happened at Maidan the response was deemed extreme, police should just stand still and wait for protestors to burn them with Molotov cocktails. Maybe they should set example how to deal with angry protestors without use of violence, to show how its done "democratically".

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The difference is that then it was a protest against the governament within the country. Now the country was invaded and part of it annexed and "protestor" are pro-futher annexation. Also with the chance of new "polite people TM" emerging, there is propably not much time from the perspective of the Ukrainian governament to do it less violently.

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Such an irony, "new" Ukranian government sending Special Forces and police to beat up pro-Russian protestors. Yet when such thing happened at Maidan the response was deemed extreme, police should just stand still and wait for protestors to burn them with Molotov cocktails. Maybe they should set example how to deal with angry protestors without use of violence, to show how its done "democratically".

Up to this moment the police in Ukraine has only defended themselves and in a really few cases ( when their police station was raided ). But Police has keep from using any force, because Russia has threatened to invade the East of Ukraine if any "Russian" is injured.

So the point is that proRussians can do whatever they want, and if the Ukrainian gov tries to confront them, Russia has threaten to invade... Basically Russia is just waiting for an excuse to attack while filling their media with lies.

Besides what Derk said, that one think is to protest against your government and the other is work against your own country so the neighbor can annex it.

What would you do, if Russian people from Vladivostok started to attack government buildings to prepare the terrain for an American invasion? Would it be the same to you, as some demonstrators in Moscow throw a corrupted government?

-------------

( The Guardian ) Pro-Russian protesters wind up tension in eastern Ukraine

Witnesses said the men who entered the police building in Donetsk were wearing the uniforms of the Berkut, the feared riot police squad that was disbanded in February after Yanukovych's ouster.
The interior ministry said in a statement that the attackers in Slovyansk used teargas and stun grenades when they stormed the building, injuring three policemen. The attackers' goal was to seize arms from the police station, authorities said, adding that there were about 40 automatic rifles and 400 pistols as well as ammunition inside

Typical "civilian" tactics...

Edited by MistyRonin

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Such an irony, "new" Ukranian government sending Special Forces and police to beat up pro-Russian protestors. Yet when such thing happened at Maidan the response was deemed extreme, police should just stand still and wait for protestors to burn them with Molotov cocktails. Maybe they should set example how to deal with angry protestors without use of violence, to show how its done "democratically".

The difference is that at Maidan, the riot police was literally speaking throwing Molotov cocktails themselves at the demonstrators, as well as other very violent things.

And here it is quite obviously people doing Russia's bidding. Like taking over the Crimean parliament, and announcing to the elected MPs that were pro-Ukrainian that they were fired. Because that's how democracy works, right?

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( Forbes ) No, Putin Is Not Acting Rationally

Ever since Angela Merkel said that Vladimir Putin is living in another world the Russian President’s state of mind has been a subject of fierce debate.

Some disagree with Merkel and say that Putin has been pushed to act by two decades of NATO and EU expansion. Others argue that, in fact, he is a master strategist playing chess while President Obama and his European brethren dawdle with checkers. Call him what you like, they say, but he’s winning.

A reality check: A year ago, Putin thought he’d have 3%-4% of GDP growth and an economic union to rival the EU. Now, he’s looking at a recession in the near term, decline in his crucial energy business in the medium term, a hostile Ukraine on his borders, his Customs Union in tatters and the world lined up against him.

If that’s winning, what does losing look like? [...]

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And for the record, the last time someone changed European borders with force, it lead to 55 million people dead. So yeah, pretty sure I'm on the right side on this.

That is an embarrassingly non-factual statement.

Anyways, back to Ukraine. Armed gunmen have ceased another government building.

Let's remember that the Maidan protests went on peacefully for months. All violence was instigated by Berkut, which responded with immediate brutality before there were any riots or demands for regime change made. The protestors occupied the square for most of the winter before arming themselves in self defense (before which time Right Sector was practically nowhere to be seen).

The pro-Russian protestors, have of course used force from day one, immediately appearing on the streets with machine guns.

And so please tell me it's so awful that the US might have bought some of the Maidan protestors donuts (never proven, just assumed), in comparison with Russian covert ops that constitute armed rebellion?

The UN is also about to release a report on the fraudulent Crimea referendum.

Edited by maturin

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Google Maps Displays Crimean Border Differently In Russia, U.S.

Not surprised though, money is more important than politics. Just as Google CEO talked trash about Russia and then when in Russia questioned by Russian journalists denied everything he said before, even denied saying "Thank you for taking us all out of Russia.â€

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That's not money; that's self defense. Putin has turned Russian into an autocratic police state. If Google depicted Crimea as part of Ukraine, its employees could face prosecution for violating Russia's law against "separatism." That is precisely the political mood in the Duma right now. Most likely the police would raid Google's Russia-based offices, smash up computers, throw the secretaries and middle managers into armored vans, confiscate all the hard disks, etc. Just enough to send a message, mafia-style.

Basically the same fate most Russian businesses and social organizations dread (spending inordinate amounts of money on security guards, tax experts and bribes for just such an eventuality).

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Most likely the police would raid Google's Russia-based offices, smash up computers, throw the secretaries and middle managers into armored vans, confiscate all the hard disks, etc. Just enough to send a message, mafia-style.

Lol. This exactly what happen with Guardian journalists in London airport last year. Its funny but i afraid i have to ask again.. Do you ever been in Russia ? :bounce3:

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Well, you're right to 1/3. They were forced to destroy some hard drives, but no one was arrested or sent to jail. It also caused a massive international outrage within the entire Western world, and it was top secret intelligence material, as opposed to being vaguely critical of the current British administration.

Its funny but i afraid i have to ask, do you have any concept of proportionality? Because those two scenarios are nowhere close to being even vaguely similar.

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That's not money; that's self defense. Putin has turned Russian into an autocratic police state. If Google depicted Crimea as part of Ukraine, its employees could face prosecution for violating Russia's law against "separatism." That is precisely the political mood in the Duma right now. Most likely the police would raid Google's Russia-based offices, smash up computers, throw the secretaries and middle managers into armored vans, confiscate all the hard disks, etc. Just enough to send a message, mafia-style.

Basically the same fate most Russian businesses and social organizations dread (spending inordinate amounts of money on security guards, tax experts and bribes for just such an eventuality).

To be safe Google for example could just close Google offices in Russia. This is why economic sanctions which Obama was mentioning is a joke. US has a lot of companies that rely on Russian market and guess what? They would not close offices and factories in Russia so easily, even if Russians took over entire Ukraine.

Edited by USSRsniper

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BREAKING NEWS

One member of the Ukrainian security forces has been killed and five others have been wounded in clashes in Sloviansk, Ukraine's interior minister has said. Arsen Avakov said there had been an "unidentifiable number" of pro-Russian casualties during the "anti-terror" operation.

"This happened at one of the roadblocks set up by the separatists. They opened direct fire at security forces as they were approaching the roadbclock," an unnamed security source told a Ukrainian news agency.

- - - - - - - - -

BTW I've been watching videos of the taking of the police stations, and the first to assault were militarily organized and using all the same camo. Later when most of the other videos were recorded, the first ones had disappear, and civilians with all kinds of fatigues were guarding the places.

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Does anybody ask where all of those weapons suddenly came from? Kiew Protests have been peacefull for months and here we see such an escalation after only a few days. This makes me quite certain that russia is involved.

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Does anybody ask where all of those weapons suddenly came from? Kiew Protests have been peacefull for months and here we see such an escalation after only a few days. This makes me quite certain that russia is involved.

According to Putin, that kind of equipment can be bought in any shop... ( well according to him even GAZ Tigr and BTR 70-80 could be bought in shops with all the weapons included ).

What I'm still curious, is why the first ones to started the assaults wear the same camo, and are organized militarily while the ones shown later look more like farmers or hunters with random camos.

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David Stern BBC News writes from Donetsk: More and more police stations and government buildings are falling to unidentified gunmen - who carry Russian weapons and look very much like the Kremlin forces who took Crimea. Ukraine's government appears to not have a choice whether to use force. The choice, it seems, is being made for them.
Edited by MistyRonin

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RWW0No0Kdw

Two civilians wounded after Kyiv forces APCs opened fire at the cars near Slavyansk town.

---------- Post added at 15:41 ---------- Previous post was at 15:36 ----------

According to Putin, that kind of equipment can be bought in any shop... ( well according to him even GAZ Tigr and BTR 70-80 could be bought in shops with all the weapons included ).

Not in any but still there is a number of companies which sell APCs (BTR-60/-70/-80, BRDM, MT-LB and MT-LBu). According to Russian laws such vehicles are registered as agriculture or communal machines and get licence plates of this group. I've provided a number of links to such companies. Yes, expencive but still...

What I'm still curious, is why the first ones to started the assaults wear the same camo, and are organized militarily while the ones shown later look more like farmers or hunters with random camos.

--------

They learn from Pravy sektor and Svoboda:)

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of companies which sell APCs (BTR-60/-70/-80, BRDM, MT-LB and MT-LBu). According to Russian laws such vehicles are registered as agriculture or communal machines and get licence plates of this group. I've provided a number of links to such companies. Yes, expencive but still...

The vehicles you refer, are unarmed and cleaned of all military technology, unlike the ones used in Crimea.

Russian state TV channel Rossiya 1 is reporting that Kiev launched its "anti-terror operation" after secret consultations with CIA chief John Brennan in Ukraine. "The order to start the special operation was given by head of the Interior Ministry Avakov. By doing that, he essentially announced the beginning of a civil war," Rossiya 1 said.

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