Ukraine General

[vilas 477]

do i said he cares ? of course not,

and about Ukrainian elections , Timoshenko was corrupted and many many Ukrainians really voted on Yanuk, to get rid from corrupted and criminals clique of Timoshenko

in case of Ukraine there are no mainstream and honest politicians/party it seems, you choose one corrupted or other corrupted or other similar,

it is like chosing between cancer, aids, diabetes or broken spine

[aleksadragutin 9]

So a full peninsula touristic resort + military bases? Have the indirect control of a country and the power to rise hell is not a benefit for Putin? Also the fact that the both the EU & US have poured insane amount of money to help Ukraine to not crumble?

Check Putin's index of popularity in Russia a year before he invaded Crimea, and now.

Besides do you really think Putin care about the dead soldiers? Russia has a different culture about their soldiers than "the West". :rolleyes:

Why would the power to rise hell be a benefit? He already had it, and he didn't really gain much power from invading Crimea.

And the treatment of war veterans in the US is an amazing topic to talk about.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/26/us-veterans-inadequate-care-war

[mistyronin 1181]

Why would the power to rise hell be a benefit? He already had it, and he didn't really gain much power from invading Crimea.

Heck, then what a strange powerless place Crimea is, that a lot of Empires have fight for it a lot of times... (Crimea War, WW2, etc.).

Maybe it's a really important geo-strategical place?

BTW the strategy of invading part of a country and creating havoc in the rest in order to force it to do certain actions has already worked so well that Russia repeated in Transnistria (Moldova), Georgia and now Ukraine.

And the treatment of war veterans in the US is an amazing topic to talk about.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/26/us-veterans-inadequate-care-war

You really want to compare Dedovshchina and Russian soldiers used as cannon fodder with some US veterans having inadequate care? :j:

Check the statistics and number of deaths in each case. Feel free to Google дедовщиÌна, you will even find official data on the subject ;)

Edited June 16, 2015 by MistyRonin

[sudayev 27]

"You are misstaken, that is not me"

Top notch investigative material that keeps in suspense!

Link to Atlantic Council report on Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine. Solid work. It appears in Vice material.

http://storage2.censor.net.ua/files/Hiding-in-Plain_Sight_0527.pdf

[srbknight 925]

Heck, then what a strange powerless place Crimea is, that a lot of Empires have fight for it a lot of times... (Crimea War, WW2, etc.).

Maybe it's a really important geo-strategical place?

BTW the strategy of invading part of a country and creating havoc in the rest in order to force it to do certain actions has already worked so well that Russia repeated in Transnistria (Moldova), Georgia and now Ukraine.

You really want to compare Dedovshchina and Russian soldiers used as cannon fodder with some US veterans having inadequate care? :j:

Check the statistics and number of deaths in each case. Feel free to Google дедовщиÌна, you will even find official data on the subject ;)

lol tell us do you guys learn about heroes of your countries???? wooh wait wait..... do you even have heroes or just oligarchies that rule 50 years !

[mistyronin 1181]

lol tell us do you guys learn about heroes of your countries???? wooh wait wait..... do you even have heroes or just oligarchies that rule 50 years !

What are you talking about? What heroes or oligarchies that rule 50 years? :Oo:

[aleksadragutin 9]

Heck, then what a strange powerless place Crimea is, that a lot of Empires have fight for it a lot of times... (Crimea War, WW2, etc.).

Maybe it's a really important geo-strategical place?

BTW the strategy of invading part of a country and creating havoc in the rest in order to force it to do certain actions has already worked so well that Russia repeated in Transnistria (Moldova), Georgia and now Ukraine.

You really want to compare Dedovshchina and Russian soldiers used as cannon fodder with some US veterans having inadequate care? :j:

Check the statistics and number of deaths in each case. Feel free to Google дедовщиÌна, you will even find official data on the subject ;)

Yes Crimea is an important strategic location, but it doesn't give Russia more power to attack Ukraine than it already had. If Russia wanted Ukraine Kiev would be gone in a matter of days.

And yes I do want to compare Russian treatment of soldiers to the one of the US. Remember, we're talking about state - veteran relations, not soldier - soldier relations. If you wan't soldier abuse, US miltary history is full of it. Just remember Vietnam.

Are you saying that western soldiers never abused anyone?

[mistyronin 1181]

Yes Crimea is an important strategic location, but it doesn't give Russia more power to attack Ukraine than it already had. If Russia wanted Ukraine Kiev would be gone in a matter of days.

You haven't got my point. I will repeat, nowadays Russian policy is to covertly invade part of a country and keep that conflict for ever, fueling it when they need to force the country's gov to do something.

They do it in Moldova with Transnistria.

In Georgia with South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

In Ukraine with the Donbass.

And yes I do want to compare Russian treatment of soldiers to the one of the US. Remember, we're talking about state - veteran relations, not soldier - soldier relations. If you wan't soldier abuse, US miltary history is full of it. Just remember Vietnam.

Are you saying that western soldiers never abused anyone?

There's a huge difference. First between conscripts and professional armies. And second between democratic countries and authoritarian that allow all kinds of systematic ill-treatment.

In Russia is systemic, and considered by the top-brass as a tradition, hence they allow it, or don't do much against it.

A good book on the subject is the autobiography of the Russian soldier (and later journalist) Arkady Babchenko, "One Soldiers War in Chechnya".

[aleksadragutin 9]

There's a huge difference. First between conscripts and professional armies. And second between democratic countries and authoritarian that allow all kinds of systematic ill-treatment.

In Russia is systemic, and considered by the top-brass as a tradition, hence they allow it, or don't do much against it.

A good book on the subject is the autobiography of the Russian soldier (and later journalist) Arkady Babchenko, "One Soldiers War in Chechnya".

Weather the country is democratic or authoritarian is irrelevant. The US is a pseudo democratic country anyway. The system is built to make you believe you have the power to influence politics. This is achieved through various forms of elections during education, while in fact those with mony that lobby senators are the ones pulling the strings.

You're making a generalisation error. You read about the tradition, so you assume that it's like that everywhere all the time. Also in the case of the US, weather the army is professional is also irrelevant. A payed soldier is as capable of commiting abuse as the conscript. Again history is full of it.

But maybe the worse is fighting for your country in a war you did not start, for a cause you might not believe in, and then getting denyed healthcare and support by the country you risked life and limb for. They used you, you are not needed anymore.

Edited June 18, 2015 by aleksadragutin

[vilas 477]

Also in the case of the US, weather the army is professional is also irrelevant. A payed soldier is as capable of commiting abuse as the conscript. Again history is full of it.

even more

because conscript is person "from usual people" and can be delicate, feeling person who is against war with other nation, who has relatives there and etc. and such people were trying to stop wars, such people were making bounty inside seeing to much evil, conscripts in facts were better cause they felt normal human feelings and in case when they get order to shoot their own family they would shoot guy who made such order,

payed soldier doesn't care, he do it soulless for money like machine, PMC companies are showing it's best, number of psychopaths there is high,

some stats about WW2 show that 95% of people were aiming not to kill, they aimed in the air, 95% of kills was done by 5% ,

who was reporting breaking law and massacres ? soldiers conscripts with conscience,

professional army is made of those 5%, normal people if they get order to kill person who did nothing to us - refuse, normal people when get order to beat your own country men refuse,

normal person kills in revenge if was hurt (or his family or nation or community was hurt) by other person/nation/community/social group, but not for money,

payed psychopath does it without any hesitation , thats why NWO disarms society, so only paid psychopaths have access to gun and rest is to be like a slave that has to obey rulers and their watch-dogs,

payed soldier is person who decide to hurt unknown people for money, so for sure such person is more capable to do wrong things, and easier to corrupt cause he does it for money, not because of patriotism,

in case of USA a lot of them join army cause they are forced - but by economy, by need to pay for things which Europeans get from taxes, such as medical care, education,

who sane would risk health and life for rich person if he was not forced by poverty ? only desperation, poverty can make such choice to risk life for banksters and rich ,

situation in Europe is of course irrelevant cause for thousand of years we fought with each other and wars here were because of ethnic or religious reasons or because of emperors that occupied other nations,

so our motivation was not money, but fact that person from abroad starts to tell us what to do,

so we hardly fought for money, we fought cause person speaking other language, having other tradition was telling us that we must change our tradition and speak his language to him and he wanted to turn us into slaves,

so of course i agree that payed is not better than conscript from human point of view, of course ruler point of view is opposite,

Edited June 18, 2015 by vilas

[negah 26]

Im reading "Generation Kill" atm and at some point a Lieutenant expresses some concern to the author that not one of his soldiers has hesitated to shoot to kill when their convoy was ambushed.

He also has mentioned that during WW2 the majority of US soldiers werent shooting back or at least hesitating even when directly confronting the enemy.

The author speculates it has something to do with the current generation being grown up on video games and different social backgrounds.

In fact the marines are admiring the guys who have a lot of confirmed kills (e.g. snipers) the most, while those snipers were shunned a while ago.

Still the unit the author was attached to was the elite first recon and the soldiers there are psychically different from the "normal" marines I guess.

[ruPal 143]

Russia is getting stronger. NATO and USA want to prevent this, crisis in Ukraine is a good reason for them to expand their forces closer to Russia territory. They are not interested in peaceful solution cause this will not give them such opportunity. Second Caribbean crisis is on horizon.

[mistyronin 1181]

Russia is getting stronger.

In what sense? Russia is in one of its weakest points of the last centuries.

[sudayev 27]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2eN6UBG8FA

In town of Ivanofrankivsk (Western UA) (former Polish city - Stanisławów) local people have honoured the memory and veterans from Ukrainian 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS also known as SS-Galizien.



Hereby I'm nominating Adolf Hitler as next in line to be posthumously awarded with "Hero of Ukraine" medal.

[Tonci87 163]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2eN6UBG8FA

In town of Ivanofrankivsk (Western UA) (former Polish city - Stanisławów) local people have honoured the memory and veterans from Ukrainian 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS also known as SS-Galizien.

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-heil-hitler-34.png

Hereby I'm nominating Adolf Hitler as next in line to be posthumously awarded with "Hero of Ukraine" medal.

Well, that is fucked up....but how big was the whole thing? Only a few local people? Did any official attend? Because if ot then it isn´t any more serious than a NPD meeting here in Germany. A bunch of idiots together in one room.

[sudayev 27]

Enough to receive a permission from the city council to use chambers belonging to the city. This was only the artistic part of of celebrations, later on special lectures took place.

Lviv helds annual celebrations of SS Galizien, marches gather around 500-600 sympathizers of Waffen SS and UPA. Also Last year Ukrainian Waffen SS enthusiasts reburied with honours exhumed bodies of fallen SS-Galizien soldiers.

Celebration were accompanied by people dressed in Waffen SS uniforms of SS Galizien and Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler. If you look at this film and related films you will find "normal looking people" children, teenagers, young men, up to very old ones remembering who saw the history. While in Germany when it comes to neonazi activities there are mostly "hooligan types" consosisting of young to mid aged men with shaved heads and provoking attitudes.

I'm not sure if neonazists in Germany do such things, but in Ukraine no one protests against such actions...

Edited June 18, 2015 by Sudayev

[oxmox 73]

I'm not sure if neonazists in Germany do such things, but in Ukraine no one protests against such actions...

You would get arrested...thats not possible in Germany.

Most Neonazis nowadays look not the same anymore, they do not shave their heads or look like those in the 80s or 90s around the Globe i.e. Skinheads. They look more subtle, sometimes totally in black, and its sometimes hard to distinguish between radicals from the left i.e. Antifa (anti-facist organisation), Black Bloc, Autonomists and them. Fortunately the overall numbers of neonazis or radical left did drop over the years and street riots, demonstrations, gatherings like in the decades before are more rare.

While in Germany when it comes to neonazi activities there are mostly "hooligan types" consosisting of young to mid aged men with shaved heads and provoking attitudes.

Because it has probably a different meaning for them and is celebrated by the Government, thats why you see all kind of ages.

The former leader of the right wing is a National Heroe in the Ukraine- also because of the "freedom" movement for independence.

Edited June 18, 2015 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

Enough to receive a permission from the city council to use chambers belonging to the city.

It's not rare. Apology of fascism is accepted, or even funded by some EU parties.

For instance, one of the most exaggerated cases is Spain where you can find in a lot of villages monuments in remembrance of the fascist dictator Francisco Franco, like his tomb, el Valle de los caídos (all paid by the government):

But hey, even a foundation (Fundación Francisco Franco), to honor the dictator is not only paid by the Spanish Gov. but also promoted by the ruling party, Partido Popular :

(The Irish Times) Spain’s Partido Popular blocks motion to denounce Franco

(WSWS) Popular Party government honours Spanish fascists in Hitler’s army

Last Saturday, the government delegate in Catalonia of Spain’s Popular Party (PP) government, María de los Llanos de Luna, handed a diploma of honour to a representative of the Brotherhood of Combatants of the Blue Division (Hermandad de Combatientes de la División Azul).

The Blue Division was a unit of Spanish volunteers that served in the German Army on the Eastern Front during the Second World War. The Brotherhood is composed of veterans of the unit, family members and revisionist historians involved in a project to rehabilitate the fascist regime of General Francisco Franco.

Edited June 18, 2015 by MistyRonin

[sudayev 27]

Anyone looking for a place to stay in Ivano-Frankivsk? Here's a nice cozy hotel in black-red colors.

Hotel "BANDERSTADT"

http://www.booking.com/hotel/ua/benderovskyy.en-gb.html?sid=9fc5a5e0ef6677ed8c5cb1ca1f11db36;dcid=4;dist=0;type=total&

Featuring a memorial hall dedicated to Stefan Bandera and UPA

Lovely.

Wonder if they feature some of this.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=pl&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdziennik.artystyczny-margines.pl%2Fzestawienie-362-metod-tortur-stosowanych-przez-upa-na-polakach%2F&edit-text=

Bastards...

Edited June 18, 2015 by Sudayev

[d_lukin 16]

Yes, there are doubts about the adequacy of the new Ukrainian authorities, which give the status of hero Bandera and UPA parties.

===========

Sorry, could not resist :D

[aleksadragutin 9]

Well, that is fucked up....but how big was the whole thing? Only a few local people? Did any official attend? Because if ot then it isn´t any more serious than a NPD meeting here in Germany. A bunch of idiots together in one room.

Since it wasn't prevented by the authorities, it's as good as official. Even if the initial Russian propaganda was over the top, Ukraine is actually trying to make it true.

[sudayev 27]

How Ukrainians imagine making true bonds of friendship with their neighbours when they openly glorify and celebrate war criminals, mass murderers mixed with elements of totalitarian regime? What's Poroshenko's opinion on supporting these ideas, celebrations and allowing them to continue in European Union since every European country banned and forbid by the law public display of any hitlerist symbols not to mention - performing celebrations connoted with World War 2 criminals?

I don't know any country in Europe that openly allows for celebrations linked with waffen SS, swastika national-socialist ideology. Do Belgians still glorify Rexist Movement? Do Norwegians still praise Vidkun Quisling? Do Slovakians praise Josef Tiso? What about Black Shirts and Benito Mussolini in Italy?

Poroshenko doesn't have such problems. On the day he meets with Polish president, he ratified a bill lifting butchers from UPA to heroes of Ukraine. Where is common sense in this country? Don't they understand that nazism, bloody nationalism is up against what EU and it's ideals (they want so bad) stand for. I really can't believe there is no fair ukrainian city mayor who can't say - fuck no, there will be no neonazi celebrations in this town.

[Tonci87 163]

Since it wasn't prevented by the authorities, it's as good as official.

That is not true. Freedom of expression exists and the authorities simply can´t prevent something like this. Same reason why you have neonazi marches in Germany from time to time (I witnessed one myself, never seen so many idiots in one place)

[ruPal 143]

It's not rare. Apology of fascism is accepted, or even funded by some EU parties.

For instance, one of the most exaggerated cases is Spain where you can find in a lot of villages monuments in remembrance of the fascist dictator Francisco Franco, like his tomb, el Valle de los caídos (all paid by the government):

https://jonkepa.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/vallecaidos.jpg

But hey, even a foundation (Fundación Francisco Franco), to honor the dictator is not only paid by the Spanish Gov. but also promoted by the ruling party, Partido Popular :

(The Irish Times) Spain’s Partido Popular blocks motion to denounce Franco

(WSWS) Popular Party government honours Spanish fascists in Hitler’s army

You are talking like: "Oh, that's ok. You shouldn't pay attention to that cause others do the same." Really? I think that every sane person should condemn every country government that approves such events. That is not normal.

[gammadust 12]

I can perceive three possible degrees of involvement between these neo-nazi groupings and the remaining parties on the Euromaidan side (namely: Ukrainian population, oligarchs, EU, USA)

- Politically joined by accidental circumstances

The Population unknowingly sided with neo-nazis given the shared objective of changing the legal institutions to give way to the European dream

The Oligarchs unknowingly sided with neo-nazis on the basis that the wider the support among the population the easier would be for their businesses to reach the European Free Market

The EU unknowingly sided with neo-nazis since it was too focused on reaching the Ukraine–European Union Association Agreement in its political/economic expansion drive

The USA unknowingly sided with neo-nazis since it was too worried with the Ukrainian population grievances and general lack of democracy

- Politically separated but willingly employed while sharing short-term objectives

The Population knowingly sided with neo-nazis but generally perceived them in minority and focused on removing the obstacles to join the EU

The Oligarchs knowingly sided with neo-nazis but figured only the strong arm provided by radicals would give enough strength to the population facing the government law enforcement

The EU knowingly sided with neo-nazis but was convinced they could be kept on a short leash while removing Ukraine from Russia's rival economic bonds

The USA knowingly sided with neo-nazis though they would lose significance as soon as their use was fulfilled and their involvement was manageable from a public relations pov

- Politically united and sharing longer-term objectives

The Population in part shares neo-nazi views to the extent of having forgotten their history and believe only the violent overthrow of the government will allow them access to European Union

The Oligarchs employed their own security forces knowing full well the neo-nazi character they identify with, removing the government was just the best for business

The EU knowingly sided with neo-nazis allowing them to take decision making structures in trade for having fulfilled their shared objectives

The USA adopted neo-nazis to be instrumental in the regime change, use them as cover and take the blame as developments got uglier

- None of the above

What other explanations can we find for the involvement with neo-nazis beyond the ignorance, ingenuity or collusion?

Are there any other explanations that alleviate each party from the responsibility in helping the hell set loose by these neo-nazis?

In addition, since these neo-nazis have been exposed and ignorance/ingenuity won't be an excuse anymore, why there remains a de facto tolerance with these neo-nazis? Fear for their power and methods?

Are eventual current shared objectives enough to justify keeping them in charge?

Is it that unlikely that sections of the Ukrainian population will turn against neo-nazis, forcefully if the situation so requires? Is it possible to dispense with them non-forcefully? Will passivity before them, naturally have them away from the positions of power they reached?