Ukraine General

[Cossack monk 11]

.....

---------- Post added at 20:07 ---------- Previous post was at 20:04 ----------

it is not "because it is not profitable" but Germans DO NOT DENY their history, Germans are aware and know their history, they do not deny it, so there is nothing to discuss if 2 sides agree, it is closed topic with Germany cause they know history, they criticize their history and they are sad with their history and they do not call to repeat it , opposite to others who praise it , deny it, try to capsize it

so now you see difference ?

noone in Germany except 0.01% neo-nazis will say that SS was freedom fighter army,

noone in Germany will deny holocaust,

but both Russia and Ukraine deny crimes of Stalin/UPA/NKVD/SS Galitzien/Cossack SS etc.

difference is in denying , whitewashing , Putin tries to rewrite history (told many times in Russian topic), now i see that Ukrainian government probably also tries to do it (and tollerate such funerals in SS uniforms)

and you deny wikipedia informations ?

У Ð½Ð°Ñ Ð·Ð°ÐºÐ¾Ð½ принÑÑ‚ на гоÑударÑтвенном уровне о запрете фашиÑткой,ÑоветÑкой,коммуниÑтичеÑкой пропаганды,Ñимволики-коммунизм запрещён законом.Сталина тем более Ñчитаем кровавым тираном.ЕÑли бы не война думаю вÑÑ‘ бы двигалоÑÑŒ быÑтрее в правильном направлении,а так от жёÑткого ÐºÐ¾Ð½Ñ‚Ñ€Ð¾Ð»Ñ Ð½Ð°ÑˆÐµÐ¹ новой влаÑти народом у Ð½Ð°Ñ Ð»ÑŽÐ´Ð¸ отвлекаютÑÑ Ð²Ð¾Ð¹Ð½Ð¾Ð¹.Ð’ÑÑ‘ задерживаетÑÑ Ð¸ продвигаетÑÑ Ð¼ÐµÐ´Ð»ÐµÐ½Ð½Ð¾,не вÑÑ‘ но еÑÑ‚ÑŒ проблемы.Ðа Ñчёт УПÐ,не вÑе довольны и в Ñамой Украине её героизацией,Ð²Ñ€ÐµÐ¼Ñ Ð¿Ð¾ÐºÐ°Ð¶ÐµÑ‚ правильно ли признают УПРкак Ñилой ÐºÐ¾Ñ‚Ð¾Ñ€Ð°Ñ Ð²Ð¾ÐµÐ²Ð°Ð»Ð° за незавиÑимоÑÑ‚ÑŒ Украины-как против немцев так и против Ñоветов.До нынешней войны Ñ Ð¸ миллионы моих ÑоотечеÑтвенников о Бандеровцах знали и видели только на Ñкранах тв. на 9 Ð¼Ð°Ñ Ðº Дню Победы.И Ñколько Ñ Ð¶Ð¸Ð²Ñƒ,Ñ Ð¸Ñ… никогда не видел.Ð’ÑÑ‘ накручено Р.Ф.пропагандой а Украинцы проÑто на зло агреÑÑору (юмориÑÑ‚Ñ‹) говорÑÑ‚ мы Бандеровцы,да и много чего,проÑто превращают оÑÐºÐ¾Ñ€Ð±Ð»ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ð² шутку (как оружие).Ðа Ñчёт виккипедии-Ñ ÑталкивалÑÑ Ñ Ñ‚Ð°ÐºÐ¸Ð¼ фактом,а именно перекрученные факты по Украине и её иÑтории.Я удивилÑÑ Ð´ÑƒÐ¼Ð°Ð» попал на Р.Ф. реÑурÑ.Так что не утверждаю но думаю еÑÑ‚ÑŒ не Ð¿Ñ€Ð°Ð²Ð¸Ð»ÑŒÐ½Ð°Ñ Ð¸Ð½Ñ„Ð¾Ñ€Ð¼Ð°Ñ†Ð¸Ñ,или не правильно преподнеÑённаÑ.Могу конечно ошибатьÑÑ.

Я как Украинец у Ð’Ð°Ñ Ð¸ вÑех ПолÑков прошу проÑтить Ð½Ð°Ñ Ð¸ забыть былые обиды!Ради мира,ради того что бы нынешний конфликт Украины и РоÑÑии не Ð¿ÐµÑ€ÐµÑ€Ð¾Ñ Ð² континентальный,а может и мировой конфликт-грани очень тонкие.Ðикто не знает кому что взбредёт завтра в голову и не нажмёт ли на кнопку Ñ Ñдерными зарÑдами.Тем более было озвучено на выÑоком уровне что Ñлучай чего были готовы применить Ñдерное оружие.(Я понимаю что не так Ñто проÑто но!Факт).Пока у людей мир дома то вÑÑ‘ воÑпринимаетÑÑ Ð½Ðµ по Ñерьёзному,не веришь что может быть завтра война и в твоём дворе быть,что вÑÑ‘ так далеко,Ð·ÐµÐ¼Ð»Ñ Ð±Ð¾Ð»ÑŒÑˆÐ°Ñ.-Рнет Ð·ÐµÐ¼Ð»Ñ Ð¾Ñ‡ÐµÐ½ÑŒ маленькаÑ,и вÑÑ‘ на Ñамом деле не так уж далеко,1 день,Ñутки,а может и 1 чаÑ.Самое главное у Ð½Ð°Ñ Ð½ÐµÑ‚ фашиÑтов,а еÑли тайно где и еÑÑ‚ÑŒ то их не больше чем в РоÑÑии и Польше.Ðу и Ñ Ð½Ðµ буду вÑе Ñто знают напоминать и указывать где проходÑÑ‚ Ñъезды и их парады...Рв Украине как бы не ÑтаралиÑÑŒ пропагандиÑÑ‚Ñ‹ Ñто преподнеÑти такого нет.

Ðемцы да - молодцы!Умные люди!За их отношение к Ñвоей иÑтории им уважение.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We passed a law at the state level to ban Nazi, Soviet, communist propaganda, symbols of communism, banned zakonom.Stalina believe the more bloody war tiranom.Esli not think everything would go faster in the right direction, and by tight control of our new government people have diverted people voynoy.Vsё delayed and is progressing slowly, but not everything has problemy.Na expense UPA, not everyone is happy and in Ukraine itself of its glorification, only time will tell whether recognized as a force that the UPA fought for Ukraine's independence, both against the Germans and the current war against sovetov.Do I and millions of my countrymen know about Bandera and have only seen on TV. May 9, the Day of Pobedy.I as I live, I had never videl.Vsё nakrucheno R.F.propagandoy and Ukrainians simply evil aggressor (comedians) say we Bandera, and a lot of things, just turn insults into a joke (as Weapon) .On account vikkipedii, I came across this fact, namely, twisted the facts in Ukraine and its istorii.Ya thought was surprised to RF resurs.Tak not saying that but I do not have the correct information, or not properly prepodnesёnnaya.Mogu certainly wrong.

I like you Ukrainian and all Poles forgive us and forget past grievances! For the sake of peace, in order that the current conflict between Ukraine and Russia did not become a continental, and perhaps the world faces a very conflict-tonkie.Nikto who knows that tomorrow vzbredet in the head and presses a button whether nuclear zaryadami.Tem was announced at a high level that the case which were prepared to use nuclear weapons. (I understand that it is not so simple yet! Fact) .Poka people peace at home then all is not seen for serious, do not believe that the war could be tomorrow and be in your yard, that everything as far as the land-bolshaya. And no land is very small, and it's actually not that far away, one day, a day, and maybe 1 chas.Samoe importantly we have the fascists, and if secretly where they have no more than in Russia and Polshe.Nu and I will remind everyone knows it, and specify which hosts conventions and parades ... But in Ukraine, as it were not propagandists tried to present it does not.

Germans yes - well done! Smart people! For their attitude towards them respect its history.

Edited May 22, 2015 by MONAX

[St. Jimmy 272]

Seems like Mechanized Brigade "Prizrak" ("Ghost") commander Alexei Mozgovoi was assasinated today. There was at least one attemp some months ago but he made it only with some scratches.

[beastcat 14]

Seems like Mechanized Brigade "Prizrak" ("Ghost") commander Alexei Mozgovoi was assasinated today. There was at least one attemp some months ago but he made it only with some scratches.

Wasn't that the guy who wanted to arrest all women who go outside so they don't get raped?

[mistyronin 1181]

Yup. He was a jewel. He also dared to criticize Putin and tell him to not send Russian troops to Eastern Ukraine...

(RFERL) 'Sit At Home And Embroider' -- Ukrainian Rebel Sparks Debate On Women's Rights

In a video of the October event in the Luhansk region city of Alchevsk, Aleksandr Mozgovoi, dressed in a black beret and military fatigues, announces a ban on women going to bars and clubs on pain of arrest and instead commands them to "sit at home and embroider."

[ProfTournesol 956]

The wolves are eating each others...

[St. Jimmy 272]

The wolves are eating each others...

Yep that's a likely situation. A good example that he didn't like many leaders:

[gammadust 12]

Alexei Mozgovoi: 'If something goes wrong in Donbass, I’ll be back -- after Oklahoma'

By Elena Gorbachev - 13 April 2015 - [Translated by Greg Butterfield]

Russian Planet’s correspondent spent a day with the commander of the Ghost Brigade, who wrangled with the authorities of Novorossiya, criticized the Minsk Agreement and survived more than one assassination attempt.

Alexei Mozgovoi

Photo: Elena Gorbachev

On the day when Alexei Mozgovoi (“the Brainâ€), commander of the militia Ghost Brigade, agreed to an interview, he buried one of his soldiers in Lugansk -- another victim of the protracted ceasefire. Grisha -- this was the volunteer’s callsign -- died the night of April 6 during local battles near the village of Zholobok. Such skirmishes near the front occur more often lately, despite the current ceasefire.

After the fight in Zholobok, the Ghosts were very angry. Grisha's body was taken by fighters of the Ukrainian Aydar division -- the same one that human rights activists from Amnesty International accused of war crimes: kidnapping, killings and torture of detainees.

Grisha’s body was only recovered two days later, and in what condition remains a mystery. It is commonly believed that in war everything is easier than in civilian life: there is only black and white. But when, during a truce, shelling and loss of lives continues on the front line, and the only answer to any question is the incantation "Minsk Agreement,†this logic fails.

The only remedy for anger becomes the voice of the commander. For the militias, the voice of the Brain can be a menacing roar. For me, a female reporter who came to the war zone, he was quite different -- quiet, unhurried. And the more severe the night before, the quieter the Brigade Commander's voice is the next day.

‘OSCE are only interested in their salaries’

We ride in the car. Over the hiss of tires, I almost did not hear the Brain. He responds slowly, weighing every word. I do not see his face, as I sit in the back seat, and Mozgovoi responds from the front, without turning his head.

Are the representatives of the OSCE monitoring the situation in Kirovsk?

They're only interested in their salaries. How many days in a row are there skirmishes, during which time they never once get there?

When the incident occurred, and the militiaman died, did you contact them?

What's the point?

To note the violation of the ceasefire.

All violations and so on are noted at certain checkpoints operated by our observers together with representatives of the Armed Forces of Ukraine (APU). And we are constantly in touch with the OSCE. The Ukrainian side has one group, ours another. They just would not have agreed to go to Kirovsk.

OSCE staff in the village of Spartak.

What structures could act as an arbitrator, then?

None.

So you are able to interact with the other side without intermediaries?

Interaction with the opposite side will not work until it includes the financers, those who profit from the war. The fighting is mainly with the private armies of Kolomoisky, the APU participates at a minimum.

With regard to Ghost, complaints were heard that they are not subject to anyone and act on their own initiative. In late March, your team became an official territorial division of the Lugansk People’s Republic. What changed?

Our policy has not changed, we used to interact with all structures, including military. Another issue is that we defend the interests of the people, not the government. Because governments change, but the people -- never. With those who honestly perform their duties to the people, we always found a common language.

But conflicts do arise? For example, in Kirovsk the relationship of Ghost with the local mayor, as they say, is not optimum.

Yes, he does not like us: we exposed his illegal financial transactions. And besides, most of the work in the city was led by our battalion -- determining assistance to refugees, helping people. The mayor only wrote reports. And every day he also demanded money from us.

In an interview, you spoke rather harshly. You said that the most unpredictable enemies of Novorossiya are the governments of the newly formed republics.

In this regard, nothing has changed; as yet the people do not fully control the officials.

Why, in your opinion, can’t Novorossiya be established?

It all rests on money. Tell me, why are there customs between the DNR and LC? Worse than fiefdoms. Passports are going to be created for some reason. How much weight will the documents have without recognition? And for recognition, they’ll have to work. And work together.

‘And who is right?’

Mozgovoi says that at the very beginning of the conflict, after one of the air raids on their company, all the Ukrainian websites claimed that "a large group of Russian troops was destroyed, and all died." During the war, this message was repeated five or six times. Thus the team got its name – Ghost.

What is the secret of discipline in the Ghost Brigade?

There is no secret. And there is no discipline. Look, sit, do nothing – Mozgovoi smiles. For the first time, it seems.

And what is the main motivation for Ghost?

The same as it is for everyone: we want to live in freedom -- in a fair, equitable society.

What is the biggest injustice you have encountered in the war?

War is the greatest injustice. We're not at war with their soldiers. Those who pay, who heat up, who set people against each other through the media – that’s who we must fight. Yes, everyone has their own ideas, but by and large, we and those on the other side are fighting for the same thing -- and yet we kill each other.

And what about the Ukrainians, do they want the war to end? Will they listen to such arguments?

And here perhaps they will listen? From outside it appears that there are two simple guys chasing a coin and hammering away at each other in vain. And who is right?

Isn’t it the side that doesn’t attack anyone?

At Debaltsevo, who attacked whom?

The opinion of the people is also important: the locals did not like to be under the Ukrainian military.

In the village of Donetsk residents do not like it when there is a division of the 4th Brigade militia stationed there. That's the whole point -- as with one, so with the other. There are idiots, and there are soldiers. For example, only one militiaman dared to write the truth and publish it on the web after taking Debaltsevo. And there's a lot to be said about looting. When we went into the city, the locals wanted us to protect their homes and catch looters. But we had to deal with the war.

Humanitarian-inclined mission

The vehicle stops. The Brain has a meeting scheduled with the employees of one of the poultry farms of Alchevsk, a large city whose population before the war was over 100,000 people (now, according to some estimates, there are about 80,000). The owners of the enterprise went to Kiev, the factory closed, and the staff was left without work and does not know what to do.

On the premises there are no chickens, between factory buildings wind blows interspersed with sudden gusts of snow. All that recalls that this was a poultry farm are pieces of eggshell in the mud underfoot. Evidence of the war-- a few ruined buildings and a shell sticking out of the ground in the middle of the road. The employees are asked return to work now; Mozgovoi says it will recover. The workers are wondering whether they will be paid salaries. The brigade commander replied that this issue will also be addressed.

Photo: Elena Gorbachev

Back in the car, Mozgovoi takes his seat in the front. But now during the conversation, he sometimes turns his head to me, and his voice sounds louder.

Have the local authorities done anything to help the factory? I'm curious.

The people are the authorities. Do you mean officials or what? No minister has appeared to take charge of this enterprise.

And what can you provide the factory?

We have contacted representatives of the Russian agricultural sector who have expressed willingness to support the factory. In this there will not be nationalization – the contact is supported by the owners of the factory. Caravans of humanitarian aid are not able to fix the food situation in the Donbass. We need to work not only on markets and shops, but also the actual production.

In addition to military service, Ghost has also been a humanitarian mission?

Humanitarian-inclined, so to speak. We are always dealing with the problems of supplying hospitals, schools and social cafeterias. Now everything has become too serious, too “public,†with smuggling creating a lot of problems. When customs says: your cargo exceeds tonnage restrictions, I was surprised. How can humanitarian goods exceed tonnage? Besides, now you need to register all goods in Rostov-on-Don at the MOE [Russia’s Ministry of Emergency Situations]. Isn’t it easier to put the controls directly at customs? Such measures do not work to stop smuggling; on the contrary, in these conditions it expands. After all, humanitarian aid is also a business.

‘If you say you’re not afraid, it’s a lie’

In Mozgovoi’s office, on one wall hangs a Novorossiyan flag. On the other, a red flag with the hammer and sickle. Calling himself a monarchist, the Brain sees no contradiction in this. He says that it is wrong when people are separated by ideology -- the red, white, "fifth column" and so on. And there is nothing left of the people.

Do you remember your first performance? -- I ask the brigade commander, who was once a soloist of the Svatovskaya male ensemble, and who now often has to speak in front of people.

Of course I remember. I was still in high school. Some communist holiday at the agriculture club, a velvet curtain, with Ilyich, with wheat. All together, we were wearing ties and reciting rhymes. And then we were done.

Are you afraid of performing?

Everyone is afraid. It's like a battle to perform. If you say you’re not afraid, it’s a lie.

Do you remember when you first appealed to the people?

Also in school. I was engaged in clandestine activities. Then came an election – we even had those in Soviet times. And I realized: why did we have to choose the same? I got a few people, and at night we went into the office of the head teacher, drawing leaflets with pens. I was the soloist, we were there rehearsing. I do not remember the text, but the general meaning was limited to: What good is it to choose the same? Well, when I finished school, the director crossed himself.

What prompted you to leave Lisichansk? (In June-July 2014 Ghost defended the area around that city, then retreated to Alchevsk. - RP).

Necessity: it was necessary to save the city and the civilian population, and the brigade. That's why I led people away. Heroic death only looks beautiful in the movies.

The brigade commander smokes a lot. On the table are his four pipes. Once, says Mozgovoi, he tried to quit, but failed. On one pipe is carved a portrait of Taras Shevchenko. A trophy.

Photo: Elena Gorbachev

We know that you write poetry. Who is that woman with a bouquet in your poem, "Write me a letter, mademoiselle?"

No one you’ll ever meet. A collective image.

Did you write it for someone in particular?

Piiiiishut. I'm trusting and kind. And you women, insidious.

‘Even better’

What kind of criticism do you often hear?

That I am a satrap. And yell at everyone.

Is this untrue?

I don't know.

When will you know that your job is done?

That’s an interesting question. Suddenly it’s over, and I didn’t realize it? Seriously, we now plan to focus a bit on raising agricultural production to reduce dependence on humanitarian aid. That will help us and Russia. Then it will be possible to divert aid in other, more appropriate directions. And what will happen next, only time will tell. When the war will be over is unknown.

Has the war changed you?

I was good, and got even better -- the brigade commander laughs. Yes, actually, I became angrier. And tougher.

What are you angry about?

The fact that we were too slow, and we have nothing.

And when the war is over?

It will continue. We cannot survive on these pieces of land that we have now.

Photo: Elena Gorbachev

Then why should you observe the Minsk Agreement?

It's still too early to attack. The truce is a plus for us if we use the time properly.

The dreams of some who said ‘To Kiev’ were premature?

Well, we should go to Kiev. Another issue is that this should be done consciously, not with sword unsheathed. Well, after we come to the banks of the Dnieper, and what's next?

What’s next?

Continue to Lvov.

And then?

Warsaw.

And then?

Luxembourg – the Brigade Commander smiles. Oh, and small hamlets -- London, Paris.

And Washington?

I'm considering offers.

And what happens when you have established control of the territory, and they tell you: thanks, you are no longer needed?

Well, I’m not doing this for myself. Even if they say, okay, leave, someone should stay, after all. But if something goes wrong, I’ll be back. After Oklahoma!

The Ghost Brigade, which now includes more than 1,000 soldiers, was formed in Lugansk in April 2014. It was initially a platoon (less than 100 men), and later expanded to battalion (500 men).

In the spring and summer of 2014, Ghost participated in the battles around Lisichansk, Lomovatka and Pervomaisk. In January, it became an active participant in the battle for Debaltsevo.

The composition of the team is international – volunteer fighters include natives of the Lugansk region, Russians, Slovaks, Bulgarians. There are professional military and civilians, including some who never before used arms.

Ghost Brigade Commander Alexei Mozgovoi was born in 1975 in the village of Lower Duvanka, Voroshilovgrad region (now Lugansk). Hereditary Cossack. He served under contract in the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

During the civil war in southeastern Ukraine, Mozgovoi distinguished himself as one of the most prominent militia commanders. He openly criticized the government of Novorossiya, called the DNR and LC "separate principalities,†came into confrontation with the head of the LC Igor Plotnitsky (though formally reconciled later).

In March 2015, a car carrying Mozgovoi was hit by an explosive device in Alchevsk. The brigade commander was wounded in the head and later called the incident an assassination attempt, without identifying its organizer. Some media suggested that the “hit†on the willful brigade commander could have come from someone close to the authorities of the LC.

Rest in Peace Mozgovoi.

[BlenderRUS 6]

Leader of the ukrainian saboteurs group reported on his Facebook page about asassinating Mozgovoy by his group.

..."The explosion killed 3 people including Mozgovoy, another 3 we have finished off with 2 AKs"...

Facebook

[mistyronin 1181]

Leader of the ukrainian saboteurs group reported on his Facebook page about asassinating Mozgovoy by his group.

I think it's highly unlikely that Alexander Gladky did it. IMO he is just trying to gain adepts.

If Gladky had that resources he'd aim higher in the chain of command, and would probably have even footage of the action.

In fact, why would Ukraine troops kill Mozgovoy who is one of the most critics with the Pro-Russian leadership and with Putin?

(Moscow Times) Top Rebel Commander Killed in Eastern Ukraine

Wide-ranging theories about who could have been behind the attack have emerged in Ukrainian political circles since the incident. The leader of the pro-Ukrainian insurgency group "Darkness," Alexander Gladky, wrote on his Facebook page Sunday that his guerillas had carried out the attack.

Oleksandr Motuznyak, spokesman of the Ukrainian presidential administration specialized on the military operation in the Donbass region, said that Mozgovoi's murder was the product of internal power struggles between rebel groups, the Interfax news agency reported Sunday.

Russian State Duma Deputy Frants Klintsevich, representing the ruling United Russia party, told the TASS news agency he thought the attack had been perpetrated by Western secret services.

"It is clear to specialists that the hand of Western intelligence, mostly American, is behind this [Mozgovoi's murder]. [The attack] was done in the same style and with the same methods," TASS quoted Klintsevich as saying.

[Tonci87 163]

Russian State Duma Deputy Frants Klintsevich, representing the ruling United Russia party, told the TASS news agency he thought the attack had been perpetrated by Western secret services.

What is it with those Russian that they credit "the evil west" for everything negative that happens to them?

[BlenderRUS 6]

What is it with those Russian that they credit "the evil west" for everything negative that happens to them?

Ah.. there are still many people remember 80-90th and "the evil west", so dont wonder if some deputies accuses "west" in everything bad and even own faults.

Dont want to point fingers at another countries's senators/deputies - but same things happens everywhere.

[Tonci87 163]

Ah.. there are still many people remember 80-90th and "the evil west", so dont wonder if some deputies accuses "west" in everything bad and even own faults.

Dont want to point fingers at another countries's senators/deputies - but same things happens everywhere.

Yeah I know, but it´s especially obvious in Russia and I can´t fail to notice that. I can imagine that 40 years of "the evil west wants to destroy us" propaganda just don´t go away like that. Some people are still thinking in the old ways....

[St. Jimmy 272]

"Evil west/east" stuff should be ignored really. The more you feed the trolls the worse things goes. You can't fight propaganda with propaganda unless you want a fight.

[Tonci87 163]

Really interesting

[vilas 477]

"Evil west/east" stuff should be ignored really. The more you feed the trolls the worse things goes. You can't fight propaganda with propaganda unless you want a fight.

but we cannot ignore role of corporations making mess in some conflicts to get (later) markets,

to be objective it should be said that it's oligarchs are worst Ukraine enemies, worse than Putin itself,

and also many neo-nazi stuff is whitewashed in mainstream media because corporations want to show only whitening side of conflict,

also fact is that among those rebels are people who simply do not want all what EU currently forces (politicall correctness for example) and those people also have trouble cause from one side Putin wants to establish empire, from other hands, corporations and oligarchs want to turn them in "lgtb flag waving" cheap labor slaves,

those people out there are in situation when all their traditional values are also demeaned,

in ideal world states would be fully independent and self deciding with own values and traditions, only some states can afford such luxury,

in real world there is fight of two criminals who will rob given area and noone of those two robbers gives a damn about locals

[aleksadragutin 9]

but we cannot ignore role of corporations making mess in some conflicts to get (later) markets,

to be objective it should be said that it's oligarchs are worst Ukraine enemies, worse than Putin itself,

and also many neo-nazi stuff is whitewashed in mainstream media because corporations want to show only whitening side of conflict,

also fact is that among those rebels are people who simply do not want all what EU currently forces (politicall correctness for example) and those people also have trouble cause from one side Putin wants to establish empire, from other hands, corporations and oligarchs want to turn them in "lgtb flag waving" cheap labor slaves,

those people out there are in situation when all their traditional values are also demeaned,

in ideal world states would be fully independent and self deciding with own values and traditions, only some states can afford such luxury,

in real world there is fight of two criminals who will rob given area and noone of those two robbers gives a damn about locals

I agree with the coorporation part. It's what I was talking about when I mentioned liberal capitalism.

[vilas 477]

liberal capitalism is about free market and free competition of producers for customer,

corporations are creating olygopoly , which is against liberalism and free market,

so you use wrong words, it is not liberal capitalism, it is corporations violence ,

in liberal capitalism products are being sold for price someone will to pay unless seller decide to sell it for such price,

in case when corporations do not pay taxes it is not longer free market, it is no longer liberalism,

corporations are creating wars in third world countries , but those countries are far from free market, they are in fact very regulated and strictly held by local governments,

in case of Ukraine you have oligarchs - which is very close to feudalism ,

feudalism is far from liberal capitalism, cause in feudalism there are 2 types of possibilities limited by family roots ,

if corporations buy something, they buy something which "belongs to government" , so also you cannot say about liberal capitalism if for bride someone buys things which are ... state-owned,

state owned stuff is consequence of "communism" and post 1945 era,

because you cannot buy industry cheap which has private owner ,

you can buy very cheap industry which is state-owned,

so divide post-feudalism or neo-feudalism from liberal system

[aleksadragutin 9]

Wait, can't you see that it is the liberal capitalism that's giving coorporations the possibility to expand. Would Coca Cola be where it is now without it?

It is in the interest of coorporations to expand into Ukraine, and cootporations lobby the US senat which then sells the "fighting for freedom" bullshit, when in fact the olygarchs are thriving. That is how they turn war into profit, and that's why the US and NATO share some guilt in starting this war. They have become almost a private army. Thats pseudo freedom. The liberal capitalism that your describing is just an illusion much like true communism.

In my opinion the market should be social, and state controlled, in order to give local smaller buisnisses a fighting chance.

[vilas 477]

it is the state control that made possible to sell industry cheap,

private owned industry like Mercedes , BMW, Intel, Coca Cola cannot be sold for 1% of it's worth because someone gave bribe of 1 milion dollar to one director,

Coca Cola is world wide not because they gave bribe but because people like taste of it ,

in case of public owned industry it is possible, and "fight for freedom" were "green men" first of all cause on Maidan usual people protested against oligarchy and corruption of Yanukovich

[aleksadragutin 9]

it is the state control that made possible to sell industry cheap,

private owned industry like Mercedes , BMW, Intel, Coca Cola cannot be sold for 1% of it's worth because someone gave bribe of 1 milion dollar to one director,

Coca Cola is world wide not because they gave bribe but because people like taste of it ,

in case of public owned industry it is possible, and "fight for freedom" were "green men" first of all cause on Maidan usual people protested against oligarchy and corruption of Yanukovich

Do you think that Coca Cola is all about fair play? Think hpw many little companies it destroyed before it became what it is now.

There is corruption in state held firms off course, but you'd be a fool to believe that there's none in the private companies of capitalism.

[beastcat 14]

There is definitely no greater evil than Coca Cola. That new Coca Cola Life that everybody thought was healthy for some reason? Yeah, guess what, it's still not healthy.

[Tonci87 163]

There is definitely no greater evil than Coca Cola. That new Coca Cola Life that everybody thought was healthy for some reason? Yeah, guess what, it's still not healthy.

Hey I worked for Coca Cola :p (Seriously though, don´t drink that stuff, and if you do, then really only from time to time on special occasions. Obviously the same applies to Fanta, Sprite and basically every other Softdrink)

[aleksadragutin 9]

Hey I worked for Coca Cola :p (Seriously though, don´t drink that stuff, and if you do, then really only from time to time on special occasions. Obviously the same applies to Fanta, Sprite and basically every other Softdrink)

Agree.

[beastcat 14]

Anyway, back on topic...

Meanwhile in the cease-fire zone:

[oxmox 73]

Poroshenko: Ukraine will retake Donbas, Crimea when it becomes successful

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko says he is sure that Donbas and Crimea will become Ukraine again

when the country becomes successful.

"We will retake Crimea and Donbas. Donbas [will return] sooner, Crimea [will follow it] later. But it will happen when we become successful, when Ukrainians travel abroad without visas, when wages in Ukraine are twice the income in Crimea, when Ukraine offers jobs and Crimea doesn't," Poroshenko said in an interview with Ukrainian TV Channels.

http://www.unian.info/politics/1083271-poroshenko-ukraine-will-retake-donbas-crimea-when-it-becomes-successful.html

Ukraine, U.S. plan to jointly fight piracy online in Ukraine in 2016

Ukraine and the United States plan to jointly fight violation of copyrights online in Ukraine in 2016, the Ukrainian-U.S. Trade and Investment Council (TIC) said in a statement after holding the fifth meeting of TIC in Kyiv on Thursday.

"We hope to continue cooperation next year with the purpose of stopping violation of copyrights and related rights on the Internet in Ukraine. The proper protection of intellectual property would benefit both Ukrainian and U.S. inventors, creators and people of art," reads the statement posted on the website of the Economic Development and Trade Ministry.

http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/economic/268651.html

The other battleground

The West cannot pour limitless amounts of money into Ukraine without setting conditions. Nor can it cut off a country that has been deprived of its industrial base by force, that has seen 2m inhabitants displaced and whose economic fate rests in large part on the machinations of the Kremlin. A meaningful package of humanitarian aid to Ukraine should be offered independently of reform-linked funding. Since the crisis began, the EU and its member states have contributed just €139m-worth of aid.

In 2011 the European Commission offered more money to help salad farmers affected by an outbreak of E. coli.

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21651819-west-should-do-much-more-help-ukraines-economy-other-battleground?frsc=dg|d%20via%20@theeconomist

Edited May 29, 2015 by oxmox