Ukraine General

[mistyronin 1181]

Honestly, we should open a History (ww2 or better general) thread since our discussion has not much in common with the Ukraine.

In fact our Polish colleeges were precisely arguing the opposite. According to them WW2 is part of the origins of the actual conflicts in Ukraine, and also the reason why the Azov battalion exists.

[vilas 473]

yes, i believe that WW2 shapes current problems,

because WW2 on our region has such big influence that on the west is not imaginable,

we still face problems caused by WW2

and what happens in Ukraine is in facet matter of history too - because mixing nations, borders that not meet ethnic regions, Crimea, Tatars , pro-Russians - this is all mess caused by WW2, Bolsheviks, USSR

i can agree that ethnic Russians are living in areas that are now artificially created as Ukraine because of birth of Ukraine as former Soviet Republic

truth is what Russians said that ethnic Russians live in those areas , yes,

and truth is that USSR politician drove border lines like mad child would be toying map, so it created Ukrainian Republic of USSR

and truth is that conflicts between nations there are due to Bolsheviks, Third Reich, USSR

there are no conflicts in areas where people live for centuries and all is set - no changes

conflicts appear where things changes and someone has more and other side has less of something , conflicts appear when 1 ethnic group is divided by borderline and on one area they have totally different conditions than on other part of border have their relatives,

from the other side some ethnic groups love leaders and being powerful - which influence other ethnic groups which were opressed in the past and old wounds start bleeding

also wounds are not healed yet

and lots of problems we are facing are because of guys whose granfathers were in NKVD (and nowadays those people are busines leaders, lawyers, officials, judges, prosecutors)

which in case of Ukraine probably created oligarchs

because probably most of oligarchs causing problems and rot of Ukrainian state for 2 decades are guys who were former USSR intel agents and later became mafia

people who hurted our grandfathers never paid for it, now their grandsons hurt us

and mafia (oligarchs) destoryed Ukraine and desperated people see hope in neo-nazis

and problem of Ukraine became problem of Poland (serious market troubles due to not selling to Russia, costs of Ukrainian refugees, social problems of people whose family members were killed by UPA and now they are hear to help Ukraine and they go mad because their grandfather died from UPA hands)

half of Polish society is very angry that Poland helps Ukraine because of historical crimes of UPA and SS Galizien

it is very hard to explain to people why they should help to ethnic group which in past was killing our ethnic group for ethnic reasons

because if you would lost 85% property in cities, 39% property totally, 16% population (if you would add Jews it would be more)- you would look other way

than if you lost 1%

reading forums and hearing people most of people say that we should not bother what happens there at all

most of my friends from job say that we should take any side because Ukrainians and Russians are for us the same, it is all caused by WW2 cause one lost granfather's brother from UPA hands, other lost from German hands, other lost from Russian hands,

statistically in WW2 almost every Polish family lost someone, so statistically every family have someone killed in WW2, so it was either German or Ukrainian or Russian who caused this loss

and Ukraine is our neigbor and their relations with Russia totally changed economy of our farmers, people do not look at geopolitics, Putin deeds, people look at how much pigs they sold

WW2 shapes our property issues even in future (compensations because of commie politics) as shaped 50 years ago (confiscate of our property and suddenly lots of families lost all while commie families get what was ours, later they legalized stolen property)

example ?

commies confiscated people's property, than they get for example house, than they bought this house "legally" for 1%, than it became their in capitalism (after 1989) and now... someone who lost may get compensation but compensation is from taxes, commie family still has this house, other taxpayers pay for it as compensation,

Ukraine has problem started in Crimea, but Crimea was in Ukrainian territory cause Khruschev decided so, Russians feel it is their ethnic - cause Stalin put them there killing Tatars,

etc. etc. etc.

lots of crap made by WW2 stinks today

lots of crap WILL stink soon - Germans which lost property on all west part of Poland which was not Polish territory before WW2, but Stalin moved borders and some Polish families gonna have serious troubles when German heirs will come demanding compensations or return because commies not allow property in past and legally Poles couldn't buy that land but now our gov says about selling land to foreigners and ... opens wounds of WW2 with SS and Wehrmacht ,

you in west live in house which belongs to your family since centuries, many of us live in houses which not belong to us and we may lost it, Ukrainians live in area which were Polish owned (at least by nobles)

and ... mess, mess, mess

friend of mine lives in block which one Jew get back, rent for it raised few times,

he was paying 250 PLN per month, now almost 1000 per month

it is consequence of WW2, commies, maybe falsified documents in Ukraine about people which claim they are heir of Auschwitz victims,

because Ukrainian mafia falsify documents, which later are used in Polish courts as "proof" that someone is heir after person who died in Auschwitz,

our Police found that ca. 250 documents were falsified by Ukrainian notary officers, but international law enforce Poland to obey notary document from other country such as Ukraine

now using this document guy from Israel or USA claims property of block of flats or piece of land on which block of flats stands,

the bigger corruption in Ukraine, the more falsified documents in our courts produced in Ukrainian notary offices

and it is serious financial case and for thousands of families it is to live or not to live issue

WW2 changed totally property relations in my country,

in Ukraine USSR first caused holocaust (Hlodomor) and than WW2 caused changing borders, now imagine following situation:

Pole owned house in todays Ukraine, Pole was moved by USSR to land which was German, than Pole took German house, than German lost his house and now German comes for compensation but Pole has no compesnation and no place to live

or you live in city, there was plazza which belonged to Jew before WW2, Jew was murdered in Auschwitz , than commies confiscated it, than commies build block of flats on this plaza, than corrupted Ukrainian notary falsified document, than Jew from Isreal comes here claiming property of this area ,

or other situation

Germans killed some Jews who owned this land, after WW2 other Jew working in commie intel killed your grandfather and confiscated property of this Jew who died in Auschwitz, than another Jew comes claiming his property rights demanding compensation (we do not know if he is really heir of previous owner or just falsified documents) ... and you are told to pay for all this mess and your granfather was fighting to save this country while now all collapses and deeply touches people in their wallet ,

so many people died, so much documents were fabricated that we do not even know who is who (lots of commie intel officers that came from USSR in 1956 changed names to Polish and all documents were fabricated to make those people Polish sounding, now their kids claim property and dare to say about morality)

after WW2 commies made here mess bigger than Hitler - cause Hitler just bombed all , commies changed many many many documents and places of living of many people, till communism was lasting mess was stable and stability existed, i do not say it was okay, but you knew what you can expect,

and in case of my family - our house is now school or post office in Belarus , what can we do

really such problems exist and will be more and more of them - all due to WW2

such problems not exist in western countries cause most of people from west live in property of their grand fathers, who lived in property of their grandfathers, we faced huge changes of property and now in capitalism some groups try to change property relations that were lasting since WW2,

Edited June 25, 2015 by vilas

[oxmox 73]

Russia rejects calls for UN tribunal to prosecute MH17 suspects

A senior Russian official has rejected calls for the establishment of a UN tribunal to try those responsible for the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine last year.

Deputy foreign minister Gennady Gatilov was quoted by Russian news agencies as saying: “We are against it. We think it is not timely and counterproductive.†The Netherlands, Malaysia and three other countries want a UN tribunal to investigate the incident last July in which all 298 passengers and crew died.

The five countries of the joint investigation team – Australia, Belgium, Malaysia, the Netherlands and Ukraine – met last week in New York to discuss the proposed international tribunal.

Gatilov insisted the continuing investigation should be completed before any further steps are taken.

He said: “Now we must wait until the end of the investigation rather than adopt hasty resolutions on creating a tribunal.†Gatilov added that “the issue is very sensitive and serious and must be thoroughly studiedâ€.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/26/russia-rejects-calls-for-un-tribunal-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17

little bit older, but maybe some missed it: (The Independent, June 18th)

47$ million for informations regarding Mh17

MH17 crash: Whistleblower has come forward with information, claims private detective

A whistleblower has come forward with information about flight MH17, a German private detective has claimed.

Detective Josef Resch says that he was hired by an unnamed client to find out what had really happened to the flight. He says that his client offered a reward worth $47 million, or £30 million, for information about the tragedy and that an unnamed person has now come forward with information to claim the cash.

However, Mr Resch has refused to reveal who his informant is or what information he has uncovered.

He also says that he does not know the identity of his client as all their dealings were conducted through a Swiss middleman.

He told Germany’s Capital magazine: “Our clients have got all the information they wanted to get, so my job is finished.â€

“I expect something will happen very soon. Anyone who pays that kind of money for information does not keep it to himself.â€

However, he later expressed misgivings, telling Spiegel magazine: “I have a request- that my client makes the information public. But I have a fear it will be handled internally.â€

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mh17-crash-whistleblower-has-come-forward-with-information-claims-private-detective-10327953.html

Edited June 26, 2015 by oxmox

[Tonci87 163]

No surprise they don´t want a tribunal.

[srbknight 925]

AZOV Battalion these days

First photo near Krasnoarmiisk

And this is Kostya Maniylachuk one of extreme soldiers of Azov and very brutal by his speech !

https://i2.wp.com/s017.radikal.ru/i401/1501/3a/97e37362b612.jpg (123 kB)

And what is Azov is part of Ukraine army formed 2014! The soldiers of this unit are active members of Right Sector or Ukraine patriots which is actually formed by these two !

The Azov Battalion has been labelled neo-Nazi and (on the other hand) has been described as "patriots" or "a far-right Ukrainian militia

For some reason this unit is NOT under government control actually they leader is Dmitry yarosh

Edited June 28, 2015 by Dwarden
no swastika posting here, also several of those pictures got swastika photshopped in ...

[mistyronin 1181]

AZOV Battalion these days

http://i57.tinypic.com/mu8ylk.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/2rw0wn8.png

First photo near Krasnoarmiisk second one Klyuchove

These days, and in the past the same haha

Since it was created that has had a neo-nazi inspiration.

[srbknight 925]

These days, and in the past the same haha

Since it was created that has had a neo-nazi inspiration.

what's wrong ? you disagree that they use Nazism as inspiration ?

---------- Post added at 06:46 ---------- Previous post was at 06:43 ----------

These days, and in the past the same haha

Since it was created that has had a neo-nazi inspiration.

Also brothers and sisters from Ukraine http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-J_boi-9H_dU/VTcs7hqOoWI/AAAAAAAALRk/mD5USVxkxEk/s1600/neo-nazi-ukraine.jpg

[mistyronin 1181]

what's wrong ? you disagree that they use Nazism as inspiration ?

What do you mean?

I just said that it's not fresh news that the Azov Battalion have neo-nazi inspiration. They have had since day 1.

[vilas 473]

what's wrong ? you disagree that they use Nazism as inspiration ?

---------- Post added at 06:46 ---------- Previous post was at 06:43 ----------

Also brothers and sisters from Ukraine http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-J_boi-9H_dU/VTcs7hqOoWI/AAAAAAAALRk/mD5USVxkxEk/s1600/neo-nazi-ukraine.jpg

if Bolsheviks didn't commit hlodomor they would not have nazis at all

read about Hlodomor before posting such ignorance of history

Ukrainian nation had their holocaust 10-15 years before opening Aushwitz and it was made by Bolsheviks at begining of Stalin era

almost 20% of Ukrainians were starving to death , not shot dead in second without suffering, but starving and dying from starvation because of Stalin poltics carried by NKVD

Edited June 28, 2015 by vilas

[srbknight 925]

if Bolsheviks didn't commit hlodomor they would not have nazis at all

read about Hlodomor before posting such ignorance of history

Ukrainian nation had their holocaust 10-15 years before opening Aushwitz and it was made by Bolsheviks at begining of Stalin era

almost 20% of Ukrainians were starving to death , not shot dead in second without suffering, but starving and dying from starvation because of Stalin poltics carried by NKVD

I don't like Stalin he also ranges from between 35-60 million. of them 23 millions of Russians

[vilas 473]

those azov guys you shown on photo use symbols of which they see as symbol of fight against Stalin,

they simply do not understand those symbols, cause in different countries in globe people suffered differently during WW2

in some countries and some nations people suffered from Stalin and USSR,

in some from both Hitler and USSR

in some from Hitler

in some like Serbia from Muslim Bosianks

in some from Japanese (China, Korea, Philipines)

in some more from Allies fights (some part of Italy)

so in different parts of world people suffered more from one side than from other,

for some people (sadly) swastika is not symbol of crimes of Himmler's SS, but symbol of fight against Stalin , NKVD

just like in other countries sickle and hammer is symbol of crimes because NKVD commited there more crimes than SS

for people from east Asia , swasitka means nothing cause they only had Japanese army crimes

those people and those nations use different symbols with different meanings

thats why they use such symbols without understanding what those symbols means to others

[srbknight 925]

those azov guys you shown on photo use symbols of which they see as symbol of fight against Stalin,

they simply do not understand those symbols, cause in different countries in globe people suffered differently during WW2

in some countries and some nations people suffered from Stalin and USSR,

in some from both Hitler and USSR

in some from Hitler

in some like Serbia from Muslim Bosianks

in some from Japanese (China, Korea, Philipines)

in some more from Allies fights (some part of Italy)

so in different parts of world people suffered more from one side than from other,

for some people (sadly) swastika is not symbol of crimes of Himmler's SS, but symbol of fight against Stalin , NKVD

just like in other countries sickle and hammer is symbol of crimes because NKVD commited there more crimes than SS

for people from east Asia , swasitka means nothing cause they only had Japanese army crimes

those people and those nations use different symbols with different meanings

thats why they use such symbols without understanding what those symbols means to others

I am Serb and i don't hate Bosniaks neither Serbs hate Bosniaks there was couple of corrupted politicians that put people in war Tudjman Milosevic and Izetbegovic

Serbs are totally demonized during Yugoslav wars and thats the point of problems (AZOV) if they don't understand then they must be retarded Stalin is Dead i don't see what is the point showing NAZI and Fascism to Russian people right now flag they fight against dead man ?

[vilas 473]

Stalin is Dead i don't see what is the point

than you do not understand one of most basic motivations of human - remembering ancestors

human fights for :

- money (paid soldiers, contractors),

- national reasons (tradition and culture to defend from other culture - religion is also culture factor so religious wars are in this, historical reasons against those who hurted the same ehtnic group in past),

those are 2 main groups why people fight in wars, when one nation is under agression of other nation, than historical crimes of second nations are pulled off from history books to current motiviation of fighters,

when one country/religion/ethnic group invades other country/religion/ethnic group - than there are always historical factors in it, always

money wars are second group of wars, and only in money wars culture, nation, religion is not issue,

ethnic conflict like in Ukraine IS caused by history and USSR

otherwise why Russians fight there ?

if Khruschev who gave Crimea to Ukraine is dead too , Krushcheve is dead too, so why Russian bother about Crimea

Stalin is dead but Russian pray NKVD still

naming units after Dzerzynsky is like naming units after Reinchard Heidrich

you are saying Stalin is dead - what about memorizing Dzerzynsky ?

what about NKVD uniforms on Russian parade ? NKVD was organization comparable to SS

Edited June 28, 2015 by vilas

[srbknight 925]

if Khruschev who gave Crimea to Ukraine is dead too , Krushcheve is dead too, so why Russian bother about Crimea

As i said tons of times Historical part of Russia from Russian Taurida Governorate in 1802. to 1964

Like Kosovo was been Serbian from 1218-2008 but the point Serbs will never return Kosovo and it will be pain in Serbs until this nation stop to exist !

NKVD was under stalin control and after it was been part of WW2 and there is the point of that why they wear the uniforms !

otherwise why Russians fight there

And why should they don't fight Russians live there i guess the problem is they want more rights for them Ukraine rejects it and then war of course people are angry on Ukraine (Donbass people) Cause of their anti-Russian diplomacy the peace was broken few times the Minsk agreement was cancelled city was constantly bombed people Russian and Ukrainians are dies for someones wallet !

Edited June 28, 2015 by SRBKnight

[mistyronin 1181]

As i said tons of times Historical part of Russia from Russian Taurida Governorate in 1802. to 1964

Like Kosovo was been Serbian from 1218-2008

But according to you that is the past and doesn't matter, same with Stalin. No?

[srbknight 925]

But according to you that is the past and doesn't matter, same with Stalin. No?

It's really hard to speak with you :O you are like kid everything is need to draw to you

Kosovo is now independent and under US protection and There is biggest base in Europe called Bondsteel what Serbia can only to say Kosovo is part of us but nothing else dude LOL

[mistyronin 1181]

It's really hard to speak with you :O you are like kid everything is need to draw to you

Kosovo is now independent and under US protection and There is biggest base in Europe called Bondsteel what Serbia can only to say Serbia is part of us but nothing else dude LOL

Ok. So to be clear.

What you say is that anything that goes against Russia and Serbia is really bad evil.

Everything that favors them, even if its illegal it's Good.

In addition Russia and Serbia are the same nation, because you say so.

[srbknight 925]

Ok. So to be clear.

What you say is that anything that goes against Russia and Serbia is really bad evil.

Everything that favors them, even if its illegal it's Good.

it's not bad for Scandinavia or Somalia it's bad for us Serbs and Russians the anti-Slavic propaganda are so huge right now and on everyone that is not sold his soul to USA

What favors them please can you read any good thing about Serbia and Russia in western news ??

Edited June 28, 2015 by SRBKnight

[mistyronin 1181]

it's not bad for Scandinavia or Somalia it's bad for us Serbs and Russians the anti-Slavic propaganda are so huge right now and on everyone that is not sold his soul to USA

What anti-Slavic propaganda? If there's a lot of Slavic countries that are part of the EU. :j:

What favors them please can you read any good thing about Serbia and Russia in western news ??

Well a good amount of them. Heck even TIME praises Putin's environment campaigns.

(Mirror) Stunning Serbia remains one of Europe's best-kept tourism secrets

(NY Times) Renewing Belgrade’s Rich History of Performance Art

(NY Times) What Makes the Russian Literature of the 19th Century So Distinctive?

(TIME) Wildlife: Russia’s Putin Organizes to Save the Tiger

[srbknight 925]

What anti-Slavic propaganda? If there's a lot of Slavic countries that are part of the EU. :j:

Well a good amount of them. Heck even TIME praises Putin's environment campaigns.

(Mirror) Stunning Serbia remains one of Europe's best-kept tourism secrets

(NY Times) Renewing Belgrade’s Rich History of Performance Art

(NY Times) What Makes the Russian Literature of the 19th Century So Distinctive?

(TIME) Wildlife: Russia’s Putin Organizes to Save the Tiger

In addition Russia and Serbia are the same nation, because you say so.

Nope..! :D

During 2008 Kosovo protests

During CSKA Red star match

Kosovo Kosovska Mitrovica Sever

Djokovic the tennis player this is his parents building in november 2014 during President Putin visit Serbia

Russophillia in Serbia is over 86% of people feels pleased towards Russia and most of people are love to said Orthodox brothers

+ 4 news that are showed in Wildfire news from 2010/11/22, the other news about 19th century is nothing has with politics

And those NY are one of the strongest and anti-Serbian news week that i ever seen during 1999 they draw Serbs like the monsters that eat people disgusting !

And please stop using Putin as argument i am not bot or Robot that is controlled by Putin that if i love my country that not makes me different from you that is love your country but you can't understand it !

This is in Belgrade Red Star Belgrade vs Kiev 2014

move video to 1:01 !

[Tonci87 163]

Dude, how old are you? because only a minor would argument the way you do.....

[srbknight 925]

Dude, how old are you? because only a minor would argument the way you do.....

You are in Germany you never lived in Serbia and :D i guess never been in Serbia so please :butbut:

[Tonci87 163]

I don´t have to be in Serbia to recognise the stuff you write as a load of immature and uninformed rubbish. A simple google search coupled with a bit of common sense is enough to dismiss every single one of your arguments.

[mistyronin 1181]

And those NY are one of the strongest and anti-Serbian news week that i ever seen during 1999 they draw Serbs like the monsters that eat people disgusting !

So you consider that news of the NY Times praising Serbia as a wonderful touristic destination as anti-Serbian propaganda that show Serbs like monsters that eat people? :j:

You don't make much sense with your last answers.

In fact the TIME magazine was praising Putin's policies on Saving Tigers.

[srbknight 925]

I don´t have to be in Serbia to recognise the stuff you write as a load of immature and uninformed rubbish. A simple google search coupled with a bit of common sense is enough to dismiss every single one of your arguments.

No you know the result already "Jel tako druze" right friend :D

---------- Post added at 12:45 ---------- Previous post was at 12:40 ----------

So you consider that news of the NY Times praising Serbia as a wonderful touristic destination as anti-Serbian propaganda that show Serbs like monsters that eat people? :j:

You don't make much sense with your last answers.

In fact the TIME magazine was praising Putin's policies on Saving Tigers.

I praising Obama for saving corn field in North California from tornados :D