Ukraine General

[.kju 3245]

Pretty annoying to have this thread flooded by so much propaganda and misinformation from all sides,

as well as naiveté on the bigger picture in terms of geo politics.

[beastcat 14]

Trucks without license plates moving to Ukraine border

BTR moving to russian Donetsk

Izvaryne. 7:25 - 7:43.

50 BTRs, 20 Urals with covers, 10 KAMAZ trucks with covers, 2 GAZ66, 1 UAZ "таблетка" (UAZ-452)

The roads are a little bit more crowded now

LifeNews twitter (More like LieNews) - DPR PM: We have a lot of military vehicles left by the ukrainian army, hundreds of BMPs and BTRs in good condition standing around in the field

Edited August 16, 2014 by beastcat

[mistyronin 1181]

That sounds interesting:

( BBC ) Rebel leader says Russian arms on way

Alexander Zakharchenko, self-proclaimed PM of the Donetsk rebel area, said 150 vehicles and 1,200 personnel were approaching their border.

Russia has denied claims by Ukraine and Western reporters that military aid to the rebels is crossing over.

Mr Zakharchenko, who became self-declared prime minister of the "Donetsk People's Republic" (DPR) last week, is seen on a video posted on YouTube addressing the region's self-styled parliament.

"I'd like to give you some good news," he says. "At present, moving towards the corridor [a link across the border into Russia established by the rebels] are... 150 items of military hardware, 30 of which are tanks and the rest are infantry fighting vehicles and armoured personnel carriers."

He added that the vehicles were accompanied by 1,200 personnel who had received four months' training in Russia.

( RIA Novosti ) Former Donetsk Defense Minister to Form Novorossiya Army - Donetsk Prime Minister

The former defense minister of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic, Igor Strelkov, is expected to form the army of Novorossiya, the union of Donetsk and Luhansk republics in eastern Ukraine, DPR's Prime Minister Alexander Zakharchenko said Saturday.

"Igor Ivanovich [strelkov] has done a lot to build the army of the Donetsk People’s Republic. He has created the basis for forming the army according to the Russian model...

Edited August 16, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Tonci87 163]

That sounds interesting:

( BBC ) Rebel leader says Russian arms on way

( RIA Novosti ) Former Donetsk Defense Minister to Form Novorossiya Army - Donetsk Prime Minister

If that is true it could turn around the whole situation there.

[beastcat 14]

The Moscow Times - Rebel Leader Blames Ukrainian War on Masons

"Nobody's to blame that our banks, shops, the airport [in rebel-held Donetsk] are closed — except for the Ukrainian fascists and the masons of the U.S. and Europe," Vladimir Antyufeyev told the Novaya Gazeta newspaper.

When asked whether he was serious, he queried back: "Aren't we aware of the influence that masonic lodges wield in the West?"

He also advised the reporter not to argue with him "because I am a scientist" and said the world should be rid of the U.S., which he said was a "demonic construct."

lol

[vilas 477]

i would also want confirmation (of giving by Russia armament to rebels which rebel leader said), cause it would show how Russia breaks again international law and etc. (cold war 2 for sure if not worse)

[surpher 1]

(ForeignPolicy.com) Putin’s New Clothes

Vladimir Putin now seems to be relying on the Eddie Murphy "wasn't me" excuse, no doubt with the understanding that having a bald-faced lie exposed by independent witnesses matters not when the rest of the world seems unwilling to do anything about it.

[beastcat 14]

Liga - 500 tons of ukrainian humanitarian aid have been unloaded already in Severadonetzk, Lugansk.

[mistyronin 1181]

If that is true it could turn around the whole situation there.

i would also want confirmation (of giving by Russia armament to rebels which rebel leader said), cause it would show how Russia breaks again international law and etc. (cold war 2 for sure if not worse)

In the Telegraph they have published the video in which the PM of Donetsk is supposed to have made that claim. ( would any of the Russian speakers of the forum confirm the subtitles? )

( The Telegraph ) Rebel leader in Ukraine says forces bolstered by '1,200 troops trained in Russia'

They also reported it in The Guardian:

( The Guardian ) Ukraine rebel says he has 1,200 fighters 'trained in Russia' under his command

Here the video from the official "Novorossiya TV Source:

Edited August 16, 2014 by MistyRonin

[beastcat 14]

In the Telegraph they have published the video in which the PM of Donetsk is supposed to have made that claim. ( would any of the Russian speakers of the forum confirm the subtitles? )

( The Telegraph ) Rebel leader in Ukraine says forces bolstered by '1,200 troops trained in Russia'

They also reported it in The Guardian:

( The Guardian ) Ukraine rebel says he has 1,200 fighters 'trained in Russia' under his command

Here the video from the official "Novorossiya TV Source:

The Telegraph translation is pretty accurate.

If you don't trust me, heres an article in russian you can google translate about the same thing:

Obkom - «Премьер ДÐР» заÑвил открытым текÑтом: 1 200 боевиков проходили обучение на территории РоÑÑии в течение 4-Ñ… меÑÑцев

Tanks with running engines near the border

Edited August 16, 2014 by beastcat

[negah 26]

Can someone confirm if the subtitles are correct?
Its hard to believe that the casualties are that high, I understand most of them will be wounded, but still.
And what time are they talking about, from the start of the war or just recent casualties?

As for the russian military convoy destroyed in Ukraine, where are the fotos and "satellite images" proving it?

[Tonci87 163]

If Russia is really shelling them then the casualties can easily be that high although they are not specifying the timeframe.

I´m also still waiting for the pictures of that convoy, I start to think that it is only a propaganda story although there have been military vehicels crossing the border.

[beastcat 14]

Can someone confirm if the subtitles are correct?

Its hard to believe that the casualties are that high, I understand most of them will be wounded, but still.

And what time are they talking about, from the start of the war or just recent casualties?

As for the russian military convoy destroyed in Ukraine, where are the fotos and "satellite images" proving it?

The subtitles are correct, exept that they left out most of the swearing. It does indeed seem really high, but the 10.000 number came from the guy filming and they did not really confirm that. 10.000 would be almost a third of all the soldiers, so I very highly doubt that.

As for the russian convoy destroyed in Ukraine, there are still no pictures. I wonder what kind of proof would be enough, because even if photos of the partially destroyed convoy appear russia can say its not theirs or that those vehicles are stolen again anyway, just like with every other destroyed vehicle (I actually havent seen that many pictures of destroyed vehicles, so yeah).

Anyway, heres a video of separatist tanks going into Donetsk (The one in Ukraine)

http://youtu.be/v5Jt_lVLb-4

And the Red Cross inspecting the almost empty trucks

And some new trucks heading to the separatist controlled border

NSDC of Ukraine twitter - Humanitarian aid is still in Donetsk, Rostov region. Ukrainian customs still did not get any documents

[mistyronin 1181]

( The Guardian ) Ukrainian fighter plane shot down by pro-Russia rebels

Pro-Russia rebels shot down a Ukrainian fighter jet on Sunday, before Kiev and Moscow's top diplomats were due to hold urgent talks to defuse tensions over fighting in the east of the ex-Soviet nation.

Ukraine's military said its MiG-29 warplane had been shot down as it carried out "an assignment to eliminate a large group of terrorists" in the Luhansk region. The pilot managed to parachute to safety, it said.

[beastcat 14]

Zahid (UA) - Someone blew up Stepan Bandera's grave in Munich

Bandera was the master fashist according to Russia.

http://youtu.be/pkgZmQ82NyE

NY Times - NATO Would Respond Militarily to Crimea-Style Infiltration: General

U.S. Air Force Gen. Philip Breedlove, NATO's Supreme Allied Commander Europe, said although NATO had no plans to intervene in non-NATO member Ukraine, NATO countries in eastern Europe needed to start preparing for a possible threat from "little green men" - referring to soldiers in unmarked uniforms.

"If we see these actions taking place in a NATO nation and we are able to attribute them to an aggressor nation, that is Article 5. Now, it is a military response," he said.

Edited August 17, 2014 by beastcat

[vilas 477]

Bandera was the master fashist according to Russia.

for Poles too

our history is complicated

for sure he comited lots of crimes on civilians, for us he is criminal, a lot of Poles would rather piss on his grave (like on SS-men graves or NKVD graves)

what was most poisoning Polish-Ukrainian relations, was cult of Bandera in Ukraine, he was like Japanes war criminals, when it comes to brutality and atrocities level , killing pregnant women, killing kids, sawing people alive etc.

it is shame that he had a grave at all , like Hitler or Stalin or Himmler or Bin Laden - such creatures should not have graves - this time - bravo for Russia

Edited August 17, 2014 by vilas

[beastcat 14]

What did he do for everyone to hate him so much? I honestly don't know. Most Ukrainians I know actually couldn't really tell me who he is. Russians always call Ukrainians "Banderas" as in followers of Bandera, but I have never seen a "Bandera", nor do I really know what bad things Bandera did. When you call a Ukrainian a "Bandera" its actually taken as an insult, so it seems that nobody really likes him. All I know about him as that he was in a nazi concentration camp and was killed by the KGB later.

[vilas 477]

what did ? than why hate Hitler, or Himler or Stalin, or UNIT 571 ?

i cannot post there photos because of forum rights, but imagine yourself hundreds of women cut by half by saw with stomach out

imagine little kids with heads torn off or cut by half by sword etc. mutilated, defragmented corpses etc.

nearly 70,000 Poles, mostly women and children along with unarmed men, were killed during the spring and summer campaign of 1943 in Volhynia[39] by the OUN-Bandera

they were mostly killing civilians (women, kids, older people) from Polish nation and Jews

i do not know Jewish number of victims

but his crimes were equal to atrocities of Japan in China, even German SS were not cuting women by half or children by half,

only Japanes and OUN

Edited August 17, 2014 by vilas

[beastcat 14]

what did ? than why hate Hitler, or Himler or Stalin, or UNIT 571 ?

i cannot post there photos because of forum rights, but imagine yourself hundreds of women cut by half by saw with stomach out

imagine little kids with heads torn off or cut by half by sword etc. mutilated, defragmented corpses etc.

they were mostly killing civilians (women, kids, older people) from Polish nation and Jews

i do not know Jewish number of victims

but his crimes were equal to atrocities of Japan in China, even German SS were not cuting women by half or children by half,

only Japanes and OUN

Well, that sounds horrible. I have always seen Poland and Ukraine as very friendly to each other, so I guess it wasn't always like this. Now I actually feel kind of uncomfortable not knowing that, but I hope these crimes stay in the past.

I guess that explains why it is taken as an insult.

[vilas 477]

because in different countries - teachers do not teach about dark sides of our own country history , noone in any country teach "hello kids, those are our crimes" , we teach in our schools about "other nations crimes" and "our succes" , so i understand that in Ukraine noone knows what OUN was making in WW2 , just like in our schools in Poland noone said that we attacked Czechoslovakia in 1938 "zaolzie" , just like in USSR noone was teaching about Katyn , etc.

people always try to white their history and dark others - it is normal, Poland has dark sides in history too , even in XVII century some Polish hetmans/nobles were killing Ukrainian farmers to make them obey to noble/hetman/count rule etc.

it there were schools in Vatican - noone would teach about Inquisition

for sure Russia made Polish-Ukrainian relations 10 times better :D lol :D some people that hated each other due to WW2 , now are friends because of Putin

Edited August 17, 2014 by vilas

[beastcat 14]

because in different countries - teachers do not teach about dark sides of our own country history , noone in any country teach "hello kids, those are our crimes" , we teach in our schools about "other nations crimes" and "our succes" , so i understand that in Ukraine noone knows what OUN was making in WW2 , just like in our schools in Poland noone said that we attacked Czechoslovakia in 1938 "zaolzie" , just like in USSR noone was teaching about Katyn , etc.

people always try to white their history and dark others - it is normal, Poland has dark sides in history too , even in XVII century some Polish hetmans/nobles were killing Ukrainian farmers to make them obey to noble/hetman/count rule etc.

it there were schools in Vatican - noone would teach about Inquisition

for sure Russia made Polish-Ukrainian relations 10 times better :D lol :D some people that hated each other due to WW2 , now are friends because of Putin

Well, in Germany they always teach how horrible nazi germany was, but yeah, I couldn't agree more.

Interesting how the only place where people support Novorossiya is Russia and not Ukraine

Whats interesting to note is that the guy who speaks in the beginning about his experience in Ukraine has probably the most heavy Chechen accent I have ever heard.

Some translations of the signs

White sign 1 - "I trust Putin"

White sign 2 - "I recognize Novorossiya"

Novorossiya Flag - "Russia, recognize we are unified"

Picture with a little green man and child - "Standing for Donbass"

Putin face - "Motherland! Freedom!"

Hipster dude sign - "Putin and Strelkov, leaders of liberation"

Nvm, just discovered a translation in the description, but I find mine a bit less google translator-esque.

Edited August 17, 2014 by beastcat

[vilas 477]

Well, in Germany they always teach how horrible nazi germany was

in Germany dangerous trend happens (maybe due to too much business with Russians), i heard about 2 German movies/TV-series in which they push Nazis to be Polish army, i heard about scandalic movie in which Aushwitz was led by Polish army and in Polish army uniforms instead of SS (one profesor told about this movie) also there was another movie in which "Werhmacht came to rescue Jews from Polish nazis" , i had no time to seek deeper, but i heard about 2 such scandalic examples ,

in USA (because of business with German companies) there are some people who were taught about "Polish death camps" and they colocate Aushwitz as leaded by Poland not by Germany

so you know... some things may surprise you more than ciriculum vitae of Bandera

[sudayev 27]

Defacing graves is a bad thing, but here emotions are so strong... For many Poles, Stefan Bandera, black&red flag, UPA are symbols far far more hatred than Hitler and Stalin together. The level of barbarism and atrocity that Poles met in now western Ukraine is beyond any comprehension. Also Ukrainians who sympathized or lived peacefully with Poles - paid the highest price.

I was deeply shocked after reading thing they were doing to people, especially little babies and pregnant women - I wish I hadn't read this, but I had to, had to understand.

I also carry stories passed by my grandfather whose family setted in today's western Ukraine near Ivano-Frankivsk, after Polish-Bolshevik war. This region had also vile episodes but on smaller scale than genocide in Volhynya. For people living there, Soviet front was a relief, because Soviets were the only ones who were able to provide safety against violent barnderists. The worst time was when The Nazis started to retreat and Soviet front was still away. There was no authority and general lawlessness, a perfect condition for armed groups who started the horror by using axes, hammers and pitchgforks... Luckily none of my family members lost their lives, but they were close to. Their village was attacked but local self defence managed to repel UPA group until the Soviets arrived. You can read it about here http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atak_UPA_na_Bitk%C3%B3w (need translating)

Like vilas said, nowadays Bandera and UPA genocide are the only issues giving bad blood between Poland and Ukraine. Personally I think it has to be solved and talked, starting from official and diplomatic levels. Like an official excuse with words of forgiveness, like Christians do.

If you would like to learn more please read this (needs translating from Polish)

http://wolyn1943.eu.interiowo.pl/artykuly.html

http://www.ivrozbiorpolski.pl/index.php?page=zbrodnie-oun

http://www.upadeknarodu.cba.pl/kresy.html

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa%C5%82szowanie_historii_ludob%C3%B3jstwa_OUN_i_UPA (how truth genocide is being falsified)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

Imagine, this is happening in Iraq and Syria, like now...

[beastcat 14]

Defacing graves is a bad thing, but here emotions are so strong... For many Poles, Stefan Bandera, black&red flag, UPA are symbols far far more hatred than Hitler and Stalin together. The level of barbarism and atrocity that Poles met in now western Ukraine is beyond any comprehension. Also Ukrainians who sympathized or lived peacefully with Poles - paid the highest price.

I was deeply shocked after reading thing they were doing to people, especially little babies and pregnant women - I wish I hadn't read this, but I had to, had to understand.

I also carry stories passed by my grandfather whose family setted in today's western Ukraine near Ivano-Frankivsk, after Polish-Bolshevik war. This region had also vile episodes but on smaller scale than genocide in Volhynya. For people living there, Soviet front was a relief, because Soviets were the only ones who were able to provide safety against violent barnderists. The worst time was when The Nazis started to retreat and Soviet front was still away. There was no authority and general lawlessness, a perfect condition for armed groups who started the horror by using axes, hammers and pitchgforks... Luckily none of my family members lost their lives, but they were close to. Their village was attacked but local self defence managed to repel UPA group until the Soviets arrived. You can read it about here http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atak_UPA_na_Bitk%C3%B3w (need translating)

Like vilas said, nowadays Bandera and UPA genocide are the only issues giving bad blood between Poland and Ukraine. Personally I think it has to be solved and talked, starting from official and diplomatic levels. Like an official excuse with words of forgiveness, like Christians do.

If you would like to learn more please read this (needs translating from Polish)

http://wolyn1943.eu.interiowo.pl/artykuly.html

http://www.ivrozbiorpolski.pl/index.php?page=zbrodnie-oun

http://www.upadeknarodu.cba.pl/kresy.html

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa%C5%82szowanie_historii_ludob%C3%B3jstwa_OUN_i_UPA (how truth genocide is being falsified)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

Imagine, this is happening in Iraq and Syria, like now...

I actually remember my grandfather telling me about how villages in the west have been constantly changing hands. All of this is truly horrible and makes me detest right sector even more for supporting Bandera (Thankfully they only got 0,7%, thats less than half of what the NPD in Germany got, so thats something, right?).

As for the articles, sadly I can't speak polish yet (I plan on learning it someday, because Poland is awesome) and google translator isn't doing a great job, but the pictures already gave too much of an insight, so I wont be sleeping tonight.

in Germany dangerous trend happens (maybe due to too much business with Russians), i heard about 2 German movies/TV-series in which they push Nazis to be Polish army, i heard about scandalic movie in which Aushwitz was led by Polish army and in Polish army uniforms instead of SS (one profesor told about this movie) also there was another movie in which "Werhmacht came to rescue Jews from Polish nazis" , i had no time to seek deeper, but i heard about 2 such scandalic examples ,

in USA (because of business with German companies) there are some people who were taught about "Polish death camps" and they colocate Aushwitz as leaded by Poland not by Germany

so you know... some things may surprise you more than ciriculum vitae of Bandera

Yeah, this is very strange. Russia does indeed seem to aim at Germany a lot for some reason. The most apparent indicator would be its massive troll army working at full force. In the comments of welt.de for example I noticed that certain people only post on articles about russia, getting about 10x more upvotes as its usual for the most popular comments and spreading really radical pro-russian information, defending every single step of Putin (A bit like some Russians, but even more radical). And when you look at other articles the most popular opinions are totally opposite to the russian ones. And that goes for pretty much every other site. The german intelligence service actually issued a warning about FSB agents trying to buy off important people some time ago I believe. But when I talked to actual people they always seemed to be very pro-Ukraine (A little bit less pro-integrating Ukraine into the EU). Well and of course most Russians think Ukrainians are mass murderes, but thats probably the case everywhere.

Edited August 17, 2014 by beastcat

[oxmox 73]

in Germany dangerous trend happens (maybe due to too much business with Russians), i heard about 2 German movies/TV-series in which they push Nazis to be Polish army, i heard about scandalic movie in which Aushwitz was led by Polish army and in Polish army uniforms instead of SS (one profesor told about this movie) also there was another movie in which "Werhmacht came to rescue Jews from Polish nazis" , i had no time to seek deeper, but i heard about 2 such scandalic examples ,

in USA (because of business with German companies) there are some people who were taught about "Polish death camps" and they colocate Aushwitz as leaded by Poland not by Germany

so you know... some things may surprise you more than ciriculum vitae of Bandera

The only critics I read about any german ww2 TV movie in the last years was the movie called "Our Fathers Our Mothers", which is actually a pretty good TV-serie from they eye of the germans.