Ukraine General

[aleksadragutin 9]

Yes, that means that my or YOUR proof isn't worth shit.

And US openly delivered Ukraine armor vests and helmets. If Russia is transporting weapons they are at least doing it in secret.

[beastcat 14]

Yes, that means that my or YOUR proof isn't worth shit.

Whats the point of arguing then? I mean if all the proof in the world is false, whats the point of anything?

[aleksadragutin 9]

Exactly, so don't go forward with your theories here. Post news and news alone.

[surpher 1]

(OSCE) Weekly update from the OSCE Observer Mission at the Russian Checkpoints Gukovo and Donetsk, for the period 6–12 August 2014

On 12 August Observer Teams observed for the first time in Gukovo border crossing point multiple groups of young people wearing military-style dress and backpacks crossing in both directions.

The OM received confirmation that the last five Ukrainian servicemen who crossed into Gukovo border crossing point on 4 August have returned safely to Ukraine.

(BuzzFeed) Soldier Whose Instagram Selfies Appeared To Show Him In Ukraine Says Russian Army Is Discharging Him

“It hasn’t really finished yet, command says that I’m a faggot who disgraced the unit, they’re going to discharge me, plus all this score-settling after all the hype, baaasically there’s not much good about it,†Sotkin wrote in a private message via VKontakte

[beastcat 14]

Exactly, so don't go forward with your theories here. Post news and news alone.

You do realize this is a forum, not a news ticker? Also if thats your opinion, you should stick to it as well.

Twitter - White russian military trucks on the Rostov road heading south (Away from where they are supposed to go, Kharkiv should be west)

White Ural:

Edited August 14, 2014 by beastcat

[aleksadragutin 9]

You do realize this is a forum, not a news ticker? Also if thats your opinion, you should stick to it as well.

It angers me when I see someone commenting something they basically don't know anything about, and what your doing is trying to brand people with a whole different way of thinking as beasts. That is the problem. If it was civilized discussion I'd be fine with it.

[beastcat 14]

It angers me when I see someone commenting something they basically don't know anything about, and what your doing is trying to brand people with a whole different way of thinking as beasts. That is the problem. If it was civilized discussion I'd be fine with it.

How am I supposed to have a civilized discussion, if all the proof in the world doesnt mean anything to you? Whats the point of a discussion then?

Twitter - Russian aid convoy turning at Kamenets-Shakhtinsky for Ukrainian border, heading for Lugansk (Crap, forgot to insert the link and lost it now, but the pic is still there)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bu_ZQFlIMAAgspg.png (234 kB)

Ukrainian humanitarian trucks don't look as fancy:

Edited August 14, 2014 by beastcat

[aleksadragutin 9]

How am I supposed to have a civilized discussion, if all the proof in the world doesnt mean anything to you? Whats the point of a discussion then?

Just don't say anything that might be offensive to someone else. Just think about something first before you type it in.

[beastcat 14]

Just don't say anything that might be offensive to someone else. Just think about something first before you type it in.

How is saying Russia is involved offensive? How is stating facts offensive? I mean you have to excuse me, but when you show undeniable proof to people and they go "Uhh, yeah, but the fly on this image is sitting on apple juice, this is not proof because flies prefer orange juice", followed by a "This is obviously all instigated by the US" without any proof, you cant expect me to continue as before.

[aleksadragutin 9]

You obviously don't even recall what you posted so... yeah.

[beastcat 14]

You obviously don't even recall what you posted so... yeah.

Quote me what you specifically found offensive then.

[sudden 13]

What's next? You stop defending Russia in its war against Ukraine. Really simple.

But yeah, its impossible to convince you by anything, because everything that doesnt fit in your view is just fabricated propaganda and even proof doesnt proof anything. Doublethink is the way to go!

I have said it clear several times. I'm against the war!

If my country is really somehow involved in killing Ukranian people, which I doubt, because I know my country, I'm against that!

I just don't like the situation when Russia is guilty only because it's Russia. When it's obvious that for my country it would be suicidal to create such a conflict on our borders in the period of economic success and at the same time I see a massive wall of fakes, facts turned inside out, biased articles and video reports that try to convince the world that Russia is responsible for whatever is going on in Ukraine. When the official report of Russian Ministry of Defense about the plane crash with radar records and hi-res sattelite pictures was answered by US officials that their word without proof costs more than any official documents presented by Russia. When a Russian humanitarian convoy for Eastern Ukraine becomes a threat number one in the world while Ukranian Army keeps shelling it's own citizens and even Russian territory. When US keeps pushing sanctions against my country without publishing any proof officially.

What should I do? Should I kneel and ask for forgiveness? I'm sorry, I'm Russian! Is that what you want?

Then I will answer with the words of George Herbert Walker Bush (vice-president at the moment) that he said after US military ship have striked down an Iranian civilian Boeing in Perisan Gulf in 1988. 290 people were killed.

"I will never apologize for the United States of America, I don’t care what the facts are"

Just change United States of America to Russia and you'll get the point. ;-)))

[beastcat 14]

I have said it clear several times. I'm against the war!

If my country is really somehow involved in killing Ukranian people, which I doubt, because I know my country, I'm against that!

I just don't like the situation when Russia is guilty only because it's Russia. When it's obvious that for my country it would be suicidal to create such a conflict on our borders in the period of economic success and at the same time I see a massive wall of fakes, facts turned inside out, biased articles and video reports that try to convince the world that Russia is guilty in what has happened in Ukraine. When the official report of Russian Ministry of Defense about the plane crash with radar records and hi-res sattelite pictures was answered by US officials that their word without proof costs more than any official documents presented by Russia. When a Russian humanitarian convoy for Eastern Ukraine becomes a threat number one in the world while Ukranian Army keeps shelling it's own citizens and even Russian territory. When US keeps pushing sanctions against my country without publishing any proof officially.

What should I do? Should I kneel and ask for forgiveness? I'm sorry, I'm Russian! Is that what you want?

Then I will answer with the words of George Herbert Walker Bush (vice-president at the moment) that he said after US military ship have striked down an Iranian civilian Boeing in Perisan Gulf in 1988. 290 people were killed.

"I will never apologize for the United States of America, I don’t care what the facts are"

Just change United States of America to Russia and you'll get the point. ;-)))

No, Russia is not guilty, because its Russia. Russia is guilty, because we have proof. We have data, photos, reports, videos, satellite images, the people who are leading the separatists, the separatists who have been killed, the behaviour of the separatists, the behavior of Russia, the shelling, the weapons and so on. Its not just because "its Russia".

The official russian report was that an SU-25 shot it down right? This has been discussed here before, this has been discussed by officials and so on. A fully armed SU-25 service ceiling is 5km, empty its 7km. The Boing was flying at 10km+. And even if it somehow was an SU-25, why did the separatists not shoot it down? Why did the shrapnel show it was a Buk missile? Why did the separatists try to hide everything they could? Why did the separatists say they shot down a plane and later took everything back? Why did some separatists say they did in fact shoot down the plane? Why do the satellite images show it was a Buk? Why do the photos show it was a Buk?

I understand your position, but its not just "because its Russia".

And again, you say you doubt russian involvement.

Why are the separatist leaders russian citizens? Why are some of them former FSB and GRU members? Why are they getting their equipment and weapons from russia? Why is Russia trying to convince everybody that Ukrainians are somehow fashist? Why is the russian army shelling Ukraine? Why are most of the separatist fighters (Again, we can only speak from the ones that have been killed) russian citizens? Why is Russia not closing its borders? Why is russia letting tanks and btrs through the border?

These are just a few points, but you get the idea. Its not just because its Russia.

Also about the humanitarian convoy:

Why did Russia lie about their agreement with the Red Cross and Ukraine? Why do parts of trucks go to Rostov, even though most of the border there is controlled by the separatists? Why did Russia decide to do a humanitarian convoy, even though the UN, NATO, the US, Ukraine and pretty much the whole world told them not to and that it will be seen as another act of generating a pretext for invasion? Why did these trucks appear so suddenly? Why did Russia not give a chance to check the trucks?

These are just a few things again, but do you see that its not a "all russians are evil" thing? We have proof and Russia is not doing a great job at hiding the facts internationally (Their paid troll army, yes they really do have one, its not a joke, is not really doing a great job).

[mistyronin 1181]

( Reuters ) Mr Putin says he has approved plans to develop a "military task force" in Crimea, Reuters news agency reports. It is not yet clear what elements will form that force.

( BBC ) 'Shelling hits' rebel-held Donetsk

Heavy shelling has been heard in the rebel-held Ukrainian city of Donetsk as a Russian convoy approaches the Ukrainian border.

Initial reports say people poured out of offices in the centre of the city after an evacuation warning sounded.

Donetsk has been surrounded for several weeks by Ukrainian forces battling pro-Russian rebels.

Meanwhile, more than 100 lorries carrying Russian aid are approaching a rebel-controlled border crossing.

There is continuing confusion over their final destination.

( RT ) Putin: Russians need to engage, but have no confrontation with wider world

“We have to develop our country with calm, dignity and efficiency, without barricading ourselves from the outer world or breaking ties with partners, but also without allowing anyone to treat us with disrespect,†he told Russian MPs in Yalta, Crimea.

[vilas 473]

they doubt Russian involvement, before they doubt Green man, for 60 years they doubt Katyn

[sudden 13]

And that's another proof of the fact that the conflict has a wider scale that it seems.

Hungary sends old T-72 tanks to Ukraine. That tanks were sold by the price that was too low that attracted the attention of the journalists.

The text is in Hungarian, but online translators help.

A vigilant reader sent in the following photos, which were made in Nyíregyháza railway station on August 2.

According to the information provided on the trains headed Záhony, which crossed the state border to the Ukraine.

There're links to official contracts in the text.

http://www.hidfo.net/2014/08/12/hulladekvas-araert-eladott-honvedsegi-harckocsik-utban-az-ukrajnai-haboru-fele

[beastcat 14]

And that's another proof of the fact that the conflict has a wider scale that it seems.

Hungary sends old T-72 tanks to Ukraine. That tanks were sold by the price that was too low that attracted the attention of the journalists.

The text is in Hungarian, but online translators help.

There're links to official contracts in the text.

http://www.hidfo.net/2014/08/12/hulladekvas-araert-eladott-honvedsegi-harckocsik-utban-az-ukrajnai-haboru-fele

Maybe thats because the tanks are just old and crap? Ukraine usually doesn't build new tanks, but rather modernizes old ones, because its cheaper and it works.

Just compare this:

To this:

http://www.morozov.com.ua/images/t72mp-5l.jpg (233 kB)

Or this:

http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/data/501/BMT-72_2.jpg (389 kB)

Edit: Aww, of course the cool looking tanks dont show up. Does anyone know whats up with the images?

Edited August 14, 2014 by beastcat

[sudden 13]

Maybe thats because the tanks are just old and crap? Ukraine usually doesn't build new tanks, but rather modernizes old ones, because its cheaper and it works.

Just compare this:

http://www.hidfo.net/sites/default/files/uploads/images/2014-2/2014-08-12-nyiregyhaza.jpg

To this:

http://www.morozov.com.ua/images/t72mp-5l.jpg (233 kB)

Or this:

http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/data/501/BMT-72_2.jpg (389 kB)

Edit: Aww, of course the cool looking tanks dont show up. Does anyone know whats up with the images?

So why do a NATO country send them to you? ;-))) For modernization?

[beastcat 14]

So why do a NATO country send them to you? ;-))) For modernization?

Because its cheaper to buy an old tank and modernize it than build a new one for Ukraine? Ukraine doesnt have unlimited decomissioned tanks standing around everywhere. I thought that was obvious.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Again, supplying a faction in a civil war is wrong. I know that because when we did it we were sanctioned and bombed.

[mistyronin 1181]

Some Twitter accounts that follow the Russian "Humanitarian" truck convoy:

Andrew Roth from NY Times

Steve Rosenberg from BBC

Roland Oliphant for the Telegraph

Courtney Weaver for the Financial Times

[sudden 13]

Because its cheaper to buy an old tank and modernize it than build a new one for Ukraine? Ukraine doesnt have unlimited decomissioned tanks standing around everywhere. I thought that was obvious.

So you still insist that US have nothing to do with it? :-)))

A NATO country sells you tanks for 1/10 of their real price in the moment when you have a civil war. Isn't that what you call support?

In the same situation in Lybia US have ruined the army and the whole country back into the stone age. Aren't you afraid that they somehow will change their priorities? :-)

Also about the humanitarian convoy:

Why did Russia lie about their agreement with the Red Cross and Ukraine? Why do parts of trucks go to Rostov, even though most of the border there is controlled by the separatists? Why did Russia decide to do a humanitarian convoy, even though the UN, NATO, the US, Ukraine and pretty much the whole world told them not to and that it will be seen as another act of generating a pretext for invasion? Why did these trucks appear so suddenly? Why did Russia not give a chance to check the trucks?

I'm really tired.

If Russia can move tanks across the border freely, like you say, why the hell it can't move the humanitarian convoy that freely?

Oh, that's an Evil Putin's plan... :-))))

---------- Post added at 01:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:30 PM ----------

Some Twitter accounts that follow the Russian "Humanitarian" truck convoy:

Andrew Roth from NY Times

Steve Rosenberg from BBC

Roland Oliphant for the Telegraph

Courtney Weaver for the Financial Times

Thanks, man! :-)

[beastcat 14]

So you still insist that US have nothing to do with it? :-)))

A NATO country sells you tanks for 1/10 of their real price in the moment when you have a civil war. Isn't that what you call support?

In the same situation in Lybia US have ruined the army and the whole country back into the stone age. Aren't you afraid that they somehow will change their priorities? :-)

Oh no, they are selling crappy old decomissioned tanks for less than the market price for a new one, how could they.

Also the translated article says:

The tanks can be 22 pieces minimum gross price was 45 million 220 thousand.

Do they claim that the 22 tanks are supposed to cost 45 million? Really?

They are saying this thing:

costs more than this thing:

http://www.armeniapedia.org/images/2/21/T-72_Tank1Armenia.jpg (108 kB)

Are you kidding me?

Also do you really thing Ukraine is going to send some old crappy tank to war that probably doesnt even have a working engine? Why is everything always a NATO or US or whatever conspiracy?

I'm really tired.

If Russia can move tanks across the border freely, like you say, why the hell it can't move the humanitarian convoy that freely?

Oh, that's an Evil Putin's plan... :-))))

This has been talked to death before, but hey, you can keep on saying the same debunked points, if you want.

Edit: Also someone please enlighten me on how the images work, it always shows the crappy pictures.

Thanks Obama and NATO and the UN and the Jews

Edited August 14, 2014 by beastcat

[sudden 13]

Are you kidding me?

Also do you really thing Ukraine is going to send some old crappy tank to war that probably doesnt even have a working engine? Why is everything always a NATO or US or whatever conspiracy?

I don't know. I'm asking. :-))

About the conspiracy ask yourself why do you see Russia behind every door.

You country has obvious problems with money. But you are buying tanks from a NATO country.

And the most interesting thing is that NATO country sells you those tanks in the moment of civil war.

Why? My version in that they were asked by US.

And about the history of humanitarian convoy. Out International Ministry insists they have a note from yours with approval of sending this convoy given August 12.

But this note was canceled next day by Yatsenuk's statement. Very strange, don't you think?

Edit: Also someone please enlighten me on how the images work, it always shows the crappy pictures.

Thanks Obama and NATO and the UN and the Jews

An image has to be less than 100kb or it will be showed as a link.

Edited August 14, 2014 by sudden

[aleksadragutin 9]

And you know they're decomissioned how? And why would Ukraine buy them if thy're that crapy and can't be used?