Ukraine General

[sudden 13]

Worst shelling ever. If Russian army is firing that bad, I'm in trouble.

And this BTR is a BTR-82A that have 30mm cannon instead of KPVT.

This kind of BTRs are used only in Russian Army. Don't you think it's kind of stupid to send it to rebels?

Are there any pictures of it on Ukranian territory?

To which God should I pray to accept this truth? Critical thinking while reading news is blasphemy. Accept true truth!

Amen! :-)

Edited August 13, 2014 by sudden

[beastcat 14]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bu2ocCzCUAA6g-p.jpg

Again about convoys. I had a truck driving episode in my life and one thing came to my mind - why are they are riding being quarter-loaded?

Simple calculation. Russian authorities have said about 2000 tonnes of cargo and all the media caught this - convoy contains 2000 tonnes of let's say - aid.

2000 tonnes on 280 trucks is equal to ~7.2 tonne per truck! What we see on photos are semi-trailer that can be loaded up to 28 tonnes of cargo. I wonder what makes missing 20 tonnes per every truck?

280 trucks x 22(typical load) tonnes = 6160 tonnes.

Since russian govt declared 2000 tonnes of aid then what makes remaining 4000 tonnes of aid?:confused_o:

From a logistical point of view 2000 tonnes can be moved much more effectively and cost efficiently by 94 trucks loaded to 21 tonnes per trailer.

It doesn't make any sense why they are sending almost 300 trucks BARELY loaded. Some "extra" supplies, evacuation for terrorists, hell knows...

Maybe they are transporting humanitarian pillows and humanitarian air in case the air runs out?

Also about the truck picture, if those are crates that got moved, why did they fix them so badly and why are they so high, while sticking out on both sides of the truck.

[batto 17]

2000 tonnes on 280 trucks is equal to ~7.2 tonne per truck! What we see on photos are semi-trailer that can be loaded up to 28 tonnes of cargo. I wonder what makes missing 20 tonnes per every truck?

Not all lightweight things are compressible.

[surpher 1]

The convoy is stilll in Voronezh.

https://twitter.com/courtneymoscow/status/499569584400502786/photo/1

[beastcat 14]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtjpP_uCUAE8Jy6.jpg

Worst shelling ever. If Russian army is firing that bad, I'm in trouble.

And this BTR is a BTR-82A that have 30mm cannon instead of KPVT.

This kind of BTRs are used only in Russian Army. Don't you think it's kind of stupid to send it to rebels?

Are there any pictures of it on Ukranian territory?

You do understand how artillery works, right? Also what, the people who fired it from the russian territory suck to much to be russian? What kind of argument is that?

Also about the BTR, I posted a video some time ago with a BTR captured from the separatists that looked a lot like this one, but I'm not a BTR expert, so yeah.

[beastcat 14]

Not all lightweight things are compressible.

Look at the provided list of whats supposed to be in there. Those are not exactly light things.

[mistyronin 1181]

I don't get much all the fuss about that convoy.

There would be a really easy solution: At the border the Red Cross, UN and OSCE inspect all the cargo ( there could be NATO, China, Brazil and Ukrainian observers too ), and if it's what Russia says that it is, then the Red Cross / UN can take it to Donetsk and Lugansk.

As far as I know, Russia has nothing to hide in that trucks no?

[aleksadragutin 9]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bu2ocCzCUAA6g-p.jpg

Again about convoys. I had a truck driving episode in my life and one thing came to my mind - why are they are driving being quarter-loaded?

Simple calculation. Russian authorities have said about 2000 tonnes of cargo and all the media caught this - convoy contains 2000 tonnes of let's say - aid.

2000 tonnes on 280 trucks is equal to ~7.2 tonne per truck! What we see on photos are semi-trailer that can be loaded up to 28 tonnes of cargo. I wonder what makes missing 20 tonnes per every truck?

280 trucks x 22(typical load) tonnes = 6160 tonnes.

Since russian govt declared 2000 tonnes of aid then what makes remaining 4000 tonnes of aid?:confused_o:

From a logistical point of view 2000 tonnes can be moved much more effectively and cost efficiently by 94 trucks loaded to 21 tonnes per trailer.

It doesn't make any sense why they are sending almost 300 trucks BARELY loaded. Some "extra" supplies, evacuation for terrorists, hell knows...

OK, but you forgot about volume/weight ratio. There might be things that are light but take up a lot of space, like sleeping bags for example.

[surpher 1]

I don't get much all the fuss about that convoy.

There would be a really easy solution: At the border the Red Cross, UN and OSCE inspect all the cargo ( there could be NATO, China, Brazil and Ukrainian observers too ), and if it's what Russia says that it is, then the Red Cross / UN can take it to Donetsk and Lugansk.

As far as I know, Russia has nothing to hide in that trucks no?

Well that was near enough the plan, but Russia decided they suddenly didn't want the trucks to be unloaded at the border.

[sudayev 27]

http://r-scale-17.dcs.redcdn.pl/scale/o2/tvn/web-content/m/p1/i/411ae1bf081d1674ca6091f8c59a266f/7ee4d00e-14be-11e4-8d12-0025b511226e.jpg?type=1&srcmode=4&srcx=0/1&srcy=0/1&srcw=640&srch=2000&dstw=640&dsth=2000 (119 kB)

http://www.ukrinform.ua/eng/news/bosnians_want_to_judge_girkin_for_war_crimes_325202

Bosnians want to try one of the leaders of militants from the so-called "Donetsk People's Republic" Igor Girkin ("Strelok") for war crimes he committed in this country, if the "Ukrainian war" is not his last one.

[aleksadragutin 9]

http://r-scale-17.dcs.redcdn.pl/scale/o2/tvn/web-content/m/p1/i/411ae1bf081d1674ca6091f8c59a266f/7ee4d00e-14be-11e4-8d12-0025b511226e.jpg?type=1&srcmode=4&srcx=0/1&srcy=0/1&srcw=640&srch=2000&dstw=640&dsth=2000 (119 kB)

http://www.ukrinform.ua/eng/news/bosnians_want_to_judge_girkin_for_war_crimes_325202

Bosnians want to try one of the leaders of militants from the so-called "Donetsk People's Republic" Igor Girkin ("Strelok") for war crimes he committed in this country, if the "Ukrainian war" is not his last one.

Funny they decided to do that now, after all those years.

[beastcat 14]

Funny they decided to do that now, after all those years.

Maybe thats because noone knew where or who he is, he was a FSB and GRU agent after all.

Not yet confirmed:

Another 142 military vehicles just entered Ukraine over the russian boarder and are heading for Snishne.

(Snishne is currently surrounded by the Ukrainian army)

Edited August 13, 2014 by beastcat

[surpher 1]

(tvrain) The Minister of Defense "DNR" Igor Strelkov seriously wounded

(IP Journal) Learning From Stalin? Why Vladimir Putin – perhaps – has not invaded eastern Ukraine yet

(The New York Times) Geopolitical Football Engulfs Top Teams in Russia

(Reuters) On Russia's border with Ukraine, fighters and military gear move freely

(The Guardian) Ukraine refuses to permit Russian aid convoy to enter country

Edited August 13, 2014 by surpher

[ProfTournesol 956]

About media coverage, an interesting article about how Russian and Ukrainian medias are covering the conflict, and what words they do use : http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28706461

[Tonci87 163]

Funny they decided to do that now, after all those years.

I guess they didn't know where to look or didn't care. Bosnias Government is a huge mess.

Personally I hope that every person fighting there and guilty of war crimes, especially mass murders and executions, doesn't get out of there alive. I really don't like people who kill civilians without hesitation.

[maturin 12]

Funny they decided to do that now, after all those years.

Your remember how long it took to catch Radovan Karadzic, right?

Worst shelling ever. If Russian army is firing that bad, I'm in trouble.

I hope that's not supposed to be an excuse.

That's rather accurate shelling, if the artillery unit is using grads (which has already been proven by locals with video cameras and Russian journalists) without any observers.

Edited August 14, 2014 by maturin

[jakerod 254]

Artillery crater image

Worst shelling ever. If Russian army is firing that bad, I'm in trouble.

And this BTR is a BTR-82A that have 30mm cannon instead of KPVT.

This kind of BTRs are used only in Russian Army. Don't you think it's kind of stupid to send it to rebels?

Are there any pictures of it on Ukranian territory?

Amen! :-)

I feel like that is a terrible place for a camp. It seems to me like the woods would've been better than just out in the open. At least they might have been harder to spot. But I am no military commander so maybe they have their reasons.

[maturin 12]

I'll tell you why. You walk through those lines of trees at the edges of fields in that part of the world and the trunks are covered in thorns 3 centimeters long.

Pizdets! I'll take the shrapnel, please.

[sudden 13]

I don't know if propaganda, but that video is lacking data. I don't know I would like to know what opinion have Peruvians about Putin, or from any other country that is not. Because although it was meant to be a comparison Russian vs the rest of the world, and most of the sources of "the world" were from US.

There're several things that are obviously a propaganda. This is my own vision, of course, but it comes from a clear understanding that no organization can be trully independent especially when things are concerning international stuff.

The main thing that is now used to create public opinion is to make you think that the majority of people around you think this or that way. Social networks, blogs, forums is a good place to create some kind of information background where even if you have an opposite view on the subject you will be overwhelmed by others and would be forced to change your opinion (if you don't have the nerve). One or two guys with couple of accounts each can control any topic easily. For instance, if you go to Russian part of Livejournal and open any post with some positive internal news, you'll see plenty of such negative comments. Everybody there knows these guys, even recognize them if they change accounts, but if you are new to LJ you'll really think Russians hate their country so bad. ;-)

Polls are flowers from the same field. It's a place where you can get any results you want to make those who thinks different feel they are a minority. And these polls are useless until you know exact information about people that were asked.

You do understand how artillery works, right? Also what, the people who fired it from the russian territory suck to much to be russian? What kind of argument is that?

Yes, I understand how artillery works. And I also understand how the Army works. :-)) I don't know how is it accepted in other countries, but in Russian Army if you have a target, it must be destroyed. It is clearly seen that the target is obviously not destroyed. We see only a couple of hits in the area of Military Unit. You think Russian Artillery doesn't have enough shells. Do you? Or someone in the Ministry of Defence gave an order, but changed his mind?

That's rather accurate shelling, if the artillery unit is using grads (which has already been proven by locals with video cameras and Russian journalists) without any observers.

Rebels have Grads, yes. And the possibility of them shelling this Unit is much higher than someone from Russia have decided to fire from a single Grad to Ukraine territory. :-)))

About media coverage, an interesting article about how Russian and Ukrainian medias are covering the conflict, and what words they do use : http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28706461

And this is a good example how they try to show Russia and Ukraine as two sides of the conflict. Which is not true.

I see things in a different way. In narrow field of view what happens in Ukraine is the civil war. Yes there maybe some Russian volunteers, just like Serbian, Spanish, Ireland and even US. But the reason of the war is internal and obvious. Part of the country sees their future with the EU and other part doesn't. After the last revolution first part decided to dictate their will to the second part instead of negotiating and making a compromise which resulted in loss of Crimea and civil war in the East. In this FOV the fate of Ukraine is in hands of the Government of Ukraine. If they decide to stop the war, the war will stop.

But the most interesting part happens in wide field of view, where this conflict is a continuation of US vs Russia conflict which is as old as a mammoth's shit. If we all remember how the things have started it was the US supporting the unconstitutional grab of power by the opposition in Ukraine. Without the support of all US media and continuous pressure on Yanukovich from US officials this would never happen. I really don't believe that their goal was "freedom" of the Ukraine or "democracy" or "think of any other ideological stuff" as they finally have just changed one oligarch president to another. :-)) And if US really stands behind this conflict (which a lot of things are pointing at) I predict this conflict will last very long until it's finished by a political decision in the US.

Edited August 14, 2014 by sudden

[beastcat 14]

Yes, I understand how artillery works. And I also understand how the Army works. :-)) I don't know how is it accepted in other countries, but in Russian Army if you have a target, it must be destroyed. It is clearly seen that the target is obviously not destroyed. We see only a couple of hits in the area of Military Unit. You think Russian Artillery doesn't have enough shells. Do you? Or someone in the Ministry of Defence gave an order, but changed his mind?

Well, if this doesn't look destroyed to you, I can't help you:

-snip-

But sure, russia is not at fault. We have satellite images prooving the shelling, we have russian army soldiers admitting it, we have photos and videos prooving it, but hey, they shot kinda crappy, it can't be Russia.

Also the last part is just... wow. Im tired of saying the same things over and over again, but its always the americans fault, right? I mean we have proof! NULAND COOKIES!!!! THIS IS ALL AN AMERICAN CONSPIRACY!!! THEE JEWJWJWJEDJJWESSSSSTZzzz!!!

Yes there maybe some Russian volunteers, just like Serbian, Spanish, Ireland and even US.

Some volunteers? Are you kidding me? All the leaders are russian citizens, most of the separatists (Or at least from the ones that have been killed) are russian citizens, their weapons are from russia, the russian ARMY is fighting along with them, but sure, there are just some volunteers.

Edited August 14, 2014 by beastcat

[aleksadragutin 9]

Your remember how long it took to catch Radovan Karadzic, right?

They caught him recently, but the arrest warrant was given a lot earlier.

And if they couldn't find Igor Girkin before, how did they manage now? How did they know it was really him and not somebody else, cause he changed a lot over the years.

[mistyronin 1181]

They caught him recently, but the arrest warrant was given a lot earlier.

And if they couldn't find Igor Girkin before, how did they manage now? How did they know it was really him and not somebody else, cause he changed a lot over the years.

Probably because Igor has used his real name, the book he published about his Bosnian memories helped too.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Well, if this doesn't look destroyed to you, I can't help you:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Btk12GUIAAA2Sny.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtkwXlYCAAEuhqu.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtkyFNqIMAAdAVL.jpg

But sure, russia is not at fault. We have satellite images prooving the shelling, we have russian army soldiers admitting it, we have photos and videos prooving it, but hey, they shot kinda crappy, it can't be Russia.

Also the last part is just... wow. Im tired of saying the same things over and over again, but its always the americans fault, right? I mean we have proof! NULAND COOKIES!!!! THIS IS ALL AN AMERICAN CONSPIRACY!!! THEE JEWJWJWJEDJJWESSSSSTZzzz!!!

Some volunteers? Are you kidding me? All the leaders are russian citizens, most of the separatists (Or at least from the ones that have been killed) are russian citizens, their weapons are from russia, the russian ARMY is fighting along with them, but sure, there are just some volunteers.

No picture in the world can confirm or deny anything. YOU have proof. Pictures taken by YOUR satellites. If you have your own spy satellite then kudos to you. YOU are just looking at other peoples pictures and finding what they told you to find.

And what about US arming Ukraine with weapons and equipment, isn't that also against the rules?

[sudden 13]

Well, if this doesn't look destroyed to you, I can't help you:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Btk12GUIAAA2Sny.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtkwXlYCAAEuhqu.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtkyFNqIMAAdAVL.jpg

But sure, russia is not at fault. We have satellite images prooving the shelling, we have russian army soldiers admitting it, we have photos and videos prooving it, but hey, they shot kinda crappy, it can't be Russia.

Also the last part is just... wow. Im tired of saying the same things over and over again, but its always the americans fault, right? I mean we have proof! NULAND COOKIES!!!! THIS IS ALL AN AMERICAN CONSPIRACY!!! THEE JEWJWJWJEDJJWESSSSSTZzzz!!!

Some volunteers? Are you kidding me? All the leaders are russian citizens, most of the separatists (Or at least from the ones that have been killed) are russian citizens, their weapons are from russia, the russian ARMY is fighting along with them, but sure, there are just some volunteers.

Ok. If I would suppose that Russia is involved. Not that I was convinced by your posts, but I really don't like fighting.

If it's true? What's next?

[beastcat 14]

No picture in the world can confirm or deny anything. YOU have proof. Pictures taken by YOUR satellites. If you have your own spy satellite then kudos to you. YOU are just looking at other peoples pictures and finding what they told you to find.

And what about US arming Ukraine with weapons and equipment, isn't that also against the rules?

Wait, does that mean that I can dismiss all of your arguments? Because hey, whatever you say doesnt proof anything, even if you present proof, right?

And when did the US give Ukraine weapons? Even if it did, Ukraine is fighting a defensive war. Also if everything was going according to the rules the US would have to declare war to russia. But yeah, fuck the fact that the whole separatist movement was initiated by russia, fuck the fact that all the leaders are russian citizens, with some being "former" FSB and GRU members, fuck the fact that most of the separatists are russian citizens, fuck the fact that only a tiny fraction of the people support the separatists, fuck the fact that russia has been shelling Ukraine, fuck all of that. All of that doesnt matter, because the US armed Ukraine with cookies.

---------- Post added at 10:12 ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 ----------

Ok. If I would suppose that Russia is involved. Not that I was convinced by your posts, but I really don't like fighting.

If it's true? What's next?

What's next? You stop defending Russia in its war against Ukraine. Really simple.

But yeah, its impossible to convince you by anything, because everything that doesnt fit in your view is just fabricated propaganda and even proof doesnt proof anything. Doublethink is the way to go!