Ukraine General

[sudden 13]

Hahaha, the off-topic geo-political threads are always a bit crazy, as everyone defends their ideas with passion ( some with over-passion ).

But I think ( I hope ) that most of the critics are against the Governments and not against the cultures or people.

BTW I agree 100% that we should spend more time checking the sources and recognizing that in any conflict there is fog of war, which prevent us to know what is happening there clearly. And there are a lot of people with different interests who spend lots of money in making it worst to manipulate all of us.

In fact I have my theories that it all may be just a feint, scaring everyone with the fear of a possible new Cold War, that way armies from everywhere in the world will rearm and buy lots of weapons, benefiting the main exporters ( USA, Russia and so on ). The problem is that is a dangerous game.

I don't know if you have seen in the previous pages the reports from Vice News, IMO are as good as journalism can go in that occasions ( they even have a journalist in each side reporting of the different events ).

Guvernments suxx, true! So Medias are too!

I've watched this ViceNews... don't see any difference with any other media. They are making the same partial picture.

The main thing that became obvious in this conflict is that any media (no matter if they are US, UK, Ukraine or Russian or whatever) are not speaking from their own point of view, but they pretend they speak from the side of Good! Instead of showing facts they evaluate and condemn manipulating video feeds and interview cuts. And that makes me mad, because I see that they are not showing the whole picture, but only the part that corresponds with current political trends. And it makes me double mad when I see this weapon (and modern media is a weapon) pointed at my country.

Guys, relax. There will be no WWIII!!! For most of us! :-)))

[ProfTournesol 956]

I've watched this ViceNews... don't see any difference with any other media. They are making the same partial picture.

I disagree, there are medias who try to do their job honestly, particularly vice news, showing and interviewing civilians shelled by the Ukrainian army for example. But up to now, i haven't seen posted here any Russian media doing something else than pure propaganda. If you can't see the difference, it is really sad for you.

And that makes me mad, because I see that they are not showing the whole picture, but only the part that corresponds with current political trends. And it makes me double mad when I see this weapon (and modern media is a weapon) pointed at my country.

Instead of thinking that the whole world wants to point weapons at Russia, you may want to look honestly at how (and by whom) you country is ruled. Personally, i couldn't care less (if you're happy with Putin and his clique, it isn't my business), if Russia wasn't threatening European peace.

Edited August 13, 2014 by ProfTournesol

[aleksadragutin 9]

I disagree, there are medias who try to do their job honestly, particularly vice news, showing and interviewing civilians shelled by the Ukrainian army for example. But up to now, i haven't seen posted here any Russian media doing something else than pure propaganda. If you can't see the difference, it is really sad for you.

The difference being that it's Russian.

Edited August 13, 2014 by aleksadragutin

[beastcat 14]

Novorossiya gets a new flag

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bu5_RGoIAAE5wSr.png (234 kB)

Here is something for our Serbian friends:

Dela - Serbia considers a penalty for its citizens fighting in Ukraine [Google Translate]

The prime minister urged citizens who are involved in the fighting to "return to the country and take care of their families and their country and not to fight for someone else, for someone else interests."

InfoResist - Russia began to shell ATO positions with tanks [Google Translate]

Edited August 13, 2014 by beastcat

[aleksadragutin 9]

Novorossiya gets a new flag

Here is something for our Serbian friends:

Dela - Serbia considers a penalty for its citizens fighting in Ukraine [Google Translate]

I saw something about that in Crimea on Russian news, but the people that are there and possibly involved in the fighting are Serbian students that went to Donetsk to study. They went there because Ukranian government offered scholarships for Serbians, and probably got engulfed by the crisis.

There was also a problem when a Serbian football club played a friendly match against the Donetsk representatives.

[sudden 13]

I disagree, there are medias who try to do their job honestly, particularly vice news, showing and interviewing civilians shelled by the Ukrainian army for example. But up to now, i haven't seen posted here any Russian media doing something else than pure propaganda. If you can't see the difference, it is really sad for you.

Come on, I didn't say Russian media are better. They are the same, actually, except the forces standing behind them. And they also are step behind in terms of methods. Russian media is more like shouting thing, pointing fingers straight if you like, while NATO's (let's call them that way to avoid listing all the countries) media are more into small detail that are carefully chosen for you to create the Right Big Picture. NATO's media would never shout something like "Russia is an enemy!". They will give you a small detail here, a part of the interview there, bla-bla-bla and pretend it's up to you to decide, but decision you think you make is just an illusion. Watching this you have no choice actually. Because every normal man would consider this a Russian threat! As I said earlier, it's not so important what do you show, it's more important how you mix it and what impression the final mix will create.

Your own opinion is unfortunatelly a good example.

Instead of thinking that the whole world wants to point weapons at Russia, you may want to look honestly at how (and by whom) you country is ruled. Personally, i couldn't care less (if you're happy with Putin and his clique, it isn't my business), if Russia wasn't threatening European peace.

That's clearly describes the impression that was created by media in your mind. "Putin must leave", "Russia is a threat!" and so on. And now you translate it to the world in this forum. That how it works. Or do you really think Putin, Obama, Merkel or Hollande are on they own to decide? There are huge spiderwebs of interests around any source of power in the world. And if you think it's one man who is responsible for everything bad that happens, you really need to change something in your vision.

To be honest I would say that Russian media now do the same in the opposite direction, blaming West in everything. And this makes me angry no less. Because I prefer making friends instead of making the enemies.

P.S. If Vice News were really independent (which I think is not possible, while every media in the world serves someone's interests, because everybody needs money), they could find out who really stands behind the current Ukraine's situation. That would be a really honest journalist job! But now it's more like showing the killed man's body in details instead of telling about the police investigation and posting the suspect's photo.

Edited August 13, 2014 by sudden

[mistyronin 1181]

If Vice News were really independent (which I think is not possible, while every media in the world serves someone's interests, because everybody needs money), they could find out who really stands behind the current Ukraine's situation.

That would be a really honest journalist job! But now it's more like showing the killed man body instead of telling about the police investigation and the suspects.

I disagree with you in this point, concerning news reports a journalist must show what he sees, basically he is just a "photographer" of reality ( obviously it's impossible to be 100% neutral, because even if I gave the same camera with the same settings to all the users of this thread, and ask you to take a photo of the same object, we would have a lot of different photos ).

Although what Vice News reporters do are not news reports ( at least not in the videos we have been posting ) are chronicles, which means that they explain what they see and how they see and feel in a chronological way from their point of view.

And in that sense they are IMO really good, and I also saw the willingness to represent all the sides of the conflict.

You can't expect them to unveil the last links of the conflict, because simply they don't have means to achieve that, the only thing they can do is tell what they see and do ( trying to always find the hot spot ).

Generally a chronicle (Latin: chronica, from Greek χÏονικά, from χÏόνος, chronos, "time") is a historical account of facts and events ranged in chronological order, as in a time line. Typically, equal weight is given for historically important events and local events, the purpose being the recording of events that occurred, seen from the perspective of the chronicler

[Tonci87 163]

I saw something about that in Crimea on Russian news, but the people that are there and possibly involved in the fighting are Serbian students that went to Donetsk to study. They went there because Ukranian government offered scholarships for Serbians, and probably got engulfed by the crisis.

There was also a problem when a Serbian football club played a friendly match against the Donetsk representatives.

Lol I wonder what all those old Cetniks were studying there.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Lol I wonder what all those old Cetniks were studying there.

Well actually I met a guy that was studying saxophone at a music academy. He came back when the situation got really messy.

[sudden 13]

And in that sense they are IMO really good, and I also saw the willingness to represent all the sides of the conflict.

I understand your opinion. In your world it is accepted to believe media. In mine it's not. And I think they are representing both sides of the conflict just to be able to say "We represent both sides of the conflict". Actually they show only one side.

My idea is you can't have a 100% picture from every media you have (including Internet). At the same time even 99% is not enough, because this 1% can contain the information that can turn the whole picture upside down. And modern media are able to show you less then a half of the picture and they can choose on their own what half it would be. Yes, they make very professional product that is a pleasure to watch. Good quality video, sound, nice music. First class! But it gives you nothing except the illusion that you now know what happens there. You don't. And I don't know too.

You can't expect them to unveil the last links of the conflict, because simply they don't have means to achieve that, the only thing they can do is tell what they see and do ( trying to always find the hot spot ).

Why do we need them, then? Everybody can take pictures and make videos, post it without any tragic music on the background and this will be much more real life thing than things Vice News do.

[mistyronin 1181]

Why do we need them, then? Everybody can take pictures and make videos, post it without any tragic music on the background and this will be much more real life thing than things Vice News do.

Hahaha that's a good question. It's even better because it affect me personally.

I've been lately ( these last years ) working as a photographer freelance. Technically anyone can take pictures and make videos with their cell phone. So why should photographers exists?

Same happens with psychologist and a lot of other professions ( lawyer, accountant, etc. ). If any friend can listen to you and give you advice, why pay for it?

I guess that the best answer would be: because they have more knowledge of what they do, they provide more quality, as they are experts is unlikely that they will commit mistakes, etc.

[Tonci87 163]

Well actually I met a guy that was studying saxophone at a music academy. He came back when the situation got really messy.

See he is a smart guy. Sadly there is also a big bunch of not so smart guys and Cetniks from Serbia over there. A few weeks ago some of them were wounded in firefights with the UA army. It must have been in your media too.

[sudden 13]

Hahaha that's a good question. It's even better because it affect me personally.

I've been lately ( these last years ) working as a photographer freelance. Technically anyone can take pictures and make videos with their cell phone. So why should photographers exists?

Same happens with psychologist and a lot of other professions ( lawyer, accountant, etc. ). If any friend can listen to you and give you advice, why pay for it?

I guess that the best answer would be: because they have more knowledge of what they do, they provide more quality, as they are experts is unlikely that they will commit mistakes, etc.

Hey, I wasn't speaking about the photographers. I wasn't even speaking about journalists. I was speaking about media. :-)

[mistyronin 1181]

Hey, I wasn't speaking about the photographers. I wasn't even speaking about journalists. I was speaking about media. :-)

Hahaha yeah I know!

But it's indeed a good question that I've talked with a lot of people and in seminars even.

Why is press/media need / relevant nowadays if anyone can post a blog / tweet, take photos with the cell phone etc.? And even sometimes the accidental witness can know better what is happening there ( for being a native, etc. ). It would make a good thread subject. :)

Back on topic :

( Al Jazeera ) Nationalist fighters killed in Ukraine

At least 12 twelve Ukrainian nationalist fighters battling pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine have been killed and an unknown number taken captive, a spokesman for the group has said.

Separatist fighters opened fire on the Right Sector's bus that was taking the men to fight just outside the rebel-held city of Donetsk, on Wednesday morning, Reuters news agency reported.

[aleksadragutin 9]

I found a god picture

http://www.spotdergi.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Medyan%C4%B1n-manip%C3%BClasyonu_2.jpg (224 kB)

---------- Post added at 11:59 ---------- Previous post was at 11:56 ----------

See he is a smart guy. Sadly there is also a big bunch of not so smart guys and Cetniks from Serbia over there. A few weeks ago some of them were wounded in firefights with the UA army. It must have been in your media too.

And please don't use the word Cetnik, like I dont use Ustasa.

[mistyronin 1181]

And please don't use the word Cetnik, like I dont use Ustasa.

It's from the events in Crimea a few months ago:

[Tonci87 163]

I found a god picture

http://www.spotdergi.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Medyan%C4%B1n-manip%C3%BClasyonu_2.jpg (224 kB)

---------- Post added at 11:59 ---------- Previous post was at 11:56 ----------

And please don't use the word Cetnik, like I dont use Ustasa.

I am honestly not using the word to brand all Serbs, they define themselves as that. I think it was the fifth episode of the Vice reports that focused on Cetniks in Crimea, watch that.And then there are also non Cetnik Serbs too....

[aleksadragutin 9]

Well dose guys sure, but they haven't been actually fighting.

[Tonci87 163]

There have been reports of Cetniks fighting on the pro russian side, I don't know if it was them or some other guys. It was just a bit surprising for me to learn that there are so many Bosnia veterans and even war criminals on the pro russian side.

[sudden 13]

If you see the history of civil conflicts, there could be anyone from every nation on both sides.

Here's a video about US guy who fights on Ukranian side.

Really I don't understand what can make a man to go to another country to fight a civil war. Addiction?

[beastcat 14]

If you see the history of civil conflicts, there could be anyone from every nation on both sides.

Here's a video about US guy who fights on Ukranian side.

Really I don't understand what can make a man to go to another country to fight a civil war. Addiction?

He said that he has ukrainian roots and sympathizes with Ukraine and wants to help in its struggle. No addiction, he explained all of his reasoning in the video. Also lol, I cant imagine an old guy who was never at war in his life being addicted to war.

(And no, I dont know if he has seen a war before or not, dont nitpick)

Edited August 13, 2014 by beastcat

[aleksadragutin 9]

There have been reports of Cetniks fighting on the pro russian side, I don't know if it was them or some other guys. It was just a bit surprising for me to learn that there are so many Bosnia veterans and even war criminals on the pro russian side.

I'm sure you recognized some of them. Perhaps some unsettled business of yours.

---------- Post added at 13:14 ---------- Previous post was at 13:12 ----------

He said that he has ukrainian roots and sympathizes with Ukraine and wants to help in its struggle. No addiction, he explained all of his reasoning in the video. Also lol, I cant imagine an old guy who was never at war in his life being addicted to war.

(And no, I dont know if he has seen a war before or not, dont nitpick)

So you think that is OK?

[beastcat 14]

I'm sure you recognized some of them. Perhaps some unsettled business of yours.

---------- Post added at 13:14 ---------- Previous post was at 13:12 ----------

So you think that is OK?

Why should it not be? Most of the people fighting the separatists are volunteers and the state cant afford to run a propper army. I would go fight myself, but you know, the whole death thing is not very appealing. If I was a least 40 years old I would definitely go.

[mistyronin 1181]

Really I don't understand what can make a man to go to another country to fight a civil war. Addiction?

Well technically he is a legal combatant, as he has the Ukrainian citizenship. I think he is some kind of idealistic nerd/freak.

Then you have "clever lads", like this ones:

( RT ) 'Spreading the truth': Spanish volunteers join fight against Kiev in E. Ukraine

In other videos they were talking about all the foreigners that joined the pro-Russian side. The curious thing, is that they are not even able to speak English and communicate with the others, they say they are fighting a crusade for Communism, like in the Spanish Civil War.

- - -

Then you have all kinds of mercenaries in both sides, Vnevedomstvenaya Okhrana and so on.

[negah 26]

Why should it not be? Most of the people fighting the separatists are volunteers and the state cant afford to run a propper army. I would go fight myself, but you know, the whole death thing is not very appealing. If I was a least 40 years old I would definitely go.

So volunteers fighting for the ukrainian army are ok while volunteers fighting for the separatists are all evil undercover specnaz?

And Russia is to blame for not totally closing its borders and not keeping everyone from leaving Russia so that they dont go and fight for the separatists as volunteers?