Ukraine General

[aleksadragutin 9]

So volunteers fighting for the ukrainian army are ok while volunteers fighting for the separatists are all evil undercover specnaz?

And Russia is to blame for not totally closing its borders and not keeping everyone from leaving Russia so that they dont go and fight for the separatists as volunteers?

Exactly! It is selective implementation of the "law".

[sudden 13]

I mean, I can understand Serbians come to Crimea after what NATO did to their country. Orthodox faith could be the reason also.

I can understand Russian volunteers come to Eastern Ukraine, because we (I mean Russians and people from Eastern Ukraine) have so many links and things in common that everybody here feels involved.

I can't support it, because I think that every war suxx and killing people doesn't solve any problems. But at least I can understand these reasons.

But what could be the reason for a US citizen to come to fight in Ukraine? Other side of the world, totally different people, mentality, faith, everything.

Ukraine roots? Symphathy? Come on!

Or he trully believes in all that "FREEDOM" stuff?

Or he just watches too much TV?

[sudayev 27]

Well technically he is a legal combatant, as he has the Ukrainian citizenship. I think he is some kind of idealistic nerd/freak.

Then you have "clever lads", like this ones:

( RT ) 'Spreading the truth': Spanish volunteers join fight against Kiev in E. Ukraine

In other videos they were talking about all the foreigners that joined the pro-Russian side. The curious thing, is that they are not even able to speak English and communicate with the others, they say they are fighting a crusade for Communism, like in the Spanish Civil War.

- - -

Then you have all kinds of mercenaries in both sides, Vnevedomstvenaya Okhrana and so on.

Probably some leftist scumbags Spain's full off

[beastcat 14]

So volunteers fighting for the ukrainian army are ok while volunteers fighting for the separatists are all evil undercover specnaz?

There is a big difference between fighting against a foreign threat officially and under control and command of an army, that is observed by the international community, getting your equipment and weapons handed out legally and getting your weapons handed out secretly and illegally, fighting for war criminals in a different country under a foreign flag, crossing the border with BTRs and tanks that officialy don't exist, fighting for foreign interests for money.

And Russia is to blame for not totally closing its borders and not keeping everyone from leaving Russia so that they dont go and fight for the separatists as volunteers?

Wait, did that old dude drive over from the US, crossing the border in an illegal tank with illegal weapons under the cover of the US or am I missing something? Why the hell do I always have to explain such simple things?

Of course russia is to blame for letting through thousands of people with weapons in tanks, that were supplied by them and then going "Oh, hundreds of BTRs, tanks, trucks full with heavily armed fighters, trucks full of weapons and some dudes from our army firing artillery at another country? We havent seen anything. Why are you blaming us? They must have sneaked past the border or something! They attacked your border guards not very far from our border guards? Well, they were already out of our sphere of influence. We can't take responsibility for what our people do in your country, its your fault!"

---------- Post added at 13:48 ---------- Previous post was at 13:46 ----------

I mean, I can understand Serbians come to Crimea after what NATO did to their country. Orthodox faith could be the reason also.

I can understand Russian volunteers come to Eastern Ukraine, because we (I mean Russians and people from Eastern Ukraine) have so many links and things in common that everybody here feels involved.

I can't support it, because I think that every war suxx and killing people doesn't solve any problems. But at least I can understand these reasons.

But what could be the reason for a US citizen to come to fight in Ukraine? Other side of the world, totally different people, mentality, faith, everything.

Ukraine roots? Symphathy? Come on!

Or he trully believes in all that "FREEDOM" stuff?

Or he just watches too much TV?

You may be suprised how many Ukrainians live in the US and Canada. And no, them living in another country doesn't mean they don't care about their homeland.

[mistyronin 1181]

But what could be the reason for a US citizen to come to fight in Ukraine? Other side of the world, totally different people, mentality, faith, everything.

Ukraine roots? Symphathy? Come on!

Well the Ukrainian roots gave him the Ukrainian citizenship, so as I said he is a legal combatant. Although I agree with you that he may not have much idea.

About the Spanish in the pro-Russian side I told before, they clearly have no idea. They are fighting some idealistic war, thinking that Russia want to create a Communist Empire. They obviously don't have a hint of Russian, and barely speak English, probably they only speak Spanish ( the same as the latin americans that they said were also fighting for the pro-Russian side ). And probably weren't able to put Ukraine in the map a year ago.

[aleksadragutin 9]

There is a big difference between fighting against a foreign threat officially and under control and command of an army, that is observed by the international community, getting your equipment and weapons handed out legally and getting your weapons handed out secretly and illegally, fighting for war criminals in a different country under a foreign flag, crossing the border with BTRs and tanks that officialy don't exist, fighting for foreign interests for money.

Wait, did that old dude drive over from the US, crossing the border in an illegal tank with illegal weapons under the cover of the US or am I missing something? Why the hell do I always have to explain such simple things?

Of course russia is to blame for letting through thousands of people with weapons in tanks, that were supplied by them and then going "Oh, hundreds of BTRs, tanks, trucks full with heavily armed fighters, trucks full of weapons and some dudes from our army firing artillery at another country? We havent seen anything. Why are you blaming us? They must have sneaked past the border or something! They attacked your border guards not very far from our border guards? Well, they were already out of our sphere of influence. We can't take responsibility for what our people do in your country, its your fault!"

---------- Post added at 13:48 ---------- Previous post was at 13:46 ----------

You may be suprised how many Ukrainians live in the US and Canada. And no, them living in another country doesn't mean they don't care about their homeland.

So now you claim that every rebel fighter is sent there by Russia in a secret move to do god knows what unless good people from the west stop them?

[mistyronin 1181]

( BBC ) Russian aid convoy sits and waits

Almost 300 Russian lorries taking aid to the conflict-hit region are at a standstill near Voronezh, 300km (185 miles) from the proposed crossing.

The convoy left a military base near Moscow on Tuesday.

There have been fears Russia could use the convoy as a pretext for military action in Ukraine.

( RIA Novosti ) Russian Humanitarian Aid to Ukraine Travelling From Voronezh to Belgorod

It has not yet been established whether a humanitarian corridor for the Russian convoy carrying medical supplies, food, baby foods, sleeping-bags and other basic necessities to Ukraine will be opened.

Earlier Russia officially addressed the UN humanitarian agencies, the OSCE, the Council of Europe and the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), with a call to organize an international humanitarian mission to Ukraine. Last week, Russia urged the UN Security Council to send a mission with Russian humanitarian aid to eastern Ukraine under the auspice and accompanied by ICRC representatives.

[sudayev 27]

Well the Ukrainian roots gave him the Ukrainian citizenship, so as I said he is a legal combatant. Although I agree with you that he may not have much idea.

About the Spanish in the pro-Russian side I told before, they clearly have no idea. They are fighting some idealistic war, thinking that Russia want to create a Communist Empire. They obviously don't have a hint of Russian, and barely speak English, probably they only speak Spanish ( the same as the latin americans that they said were also fighting for the pro-Russian side ). And probably weren't able to put Ukraine in the map a year ago.

I'm telling you - they are leftist extremists, whose grandfathers were communists fighting arm to arm with russians against forces of general Franco and Germany during 1936-39. There are many people in Spain (just like in Cuba) named Ivan, Dimitri, Fyodor, Sergei, Alexey named because pro russian sympathies and russian involvement during Spanish war and still carrying communist ideals in their heads. Now they decided to find a good moment to do something, paying some sort of debt. Just like serbians supporting pro russian terrorist group. It' wasn't any secret that russian aides, advisors and spec ops served in serbian forces during the war in former Yugoslavia.

[sudden 13]

Wait, did that old dude drive over from the US, crossing the border in an illegal tank with illegal weapons under the cover of the US or am I missing something? Why the hell do I always have to explain such simple things?

Of course russia is to blame for letting through thousands of people with weapons in tanks, that were supplied by them and then going "Oh, hundreds of BTRs, tanks, trucks full with heavily armed fighters, trucks full of weapons and some dudes from our army firing artillery at another country? We havent seen anything. Why are you blaming us? They must have sneaked past the border or something! They attacked your border guards not very far from our border guards? Well, they were already out of our sphere of influence. We can't take responsibility for what our people do in your country, its your fault!"

There's no proof that any weapons were delivered to rebels from Russia.

About the volunteers, a border between Russia and Ukraine is about 2.5 thousands km long. For instance, Germany has it's whole border 3.5 thousands km long.

The Ukraine-Russia border was almost opened till this spring. No fences, no trenches, only Checkpoints on roads.

And now you blame Russia that it doesn't close that huge part of the border so fast?

How should we do it? Can you even imagine how much money and effort it will take?

Why won't Ukraine do it from it's side?

You may be suprised how many Ukrainians live in the US and Canada. And no, them living in another country doesn't mean they don't care about their homeland.

Maybe you're right. I mean I wouldn't do this, I think.

Edited August 13, 2014 by sudden

[beastcat 14]

So now you claim that every rebel fighter is sent there by Russia in a secret move to do god knows what unless good people from the west stop them?

No, not every rebel fighter, but you can't deny russian involvement, when official russian recruitment offices are recruiting people for fighting against Ukraine, when heavy armor is crossing the border (more on that a bit later), when russian artillery is firing at Ukraine, when we have evidence that weapons and armor is being supplied by russia, when most of the separatists are russian citizens and so on.

Seriously, why do I and everybody else have to repeat the same points over and over again?

There's no proof that any weapons were delivered to rebels from Russia.

Yes there is, for a long time already.

Heres a small Reuters article about it.

The dude from Ukraine@War did a great job at tracing the path the Buk and other weapons took to Ukraine from Russia and there was a huge exhibition in Kiev where they presented captured weapons, documents, passports, you name it. But hey, you can call it fabricated propaganda or whatever and say the hundreds of BTRs, tanks, AKs, Iglas, Arty, mortars, Grads and so on were captured or just magically appeared, but during the whole conflict only 4 pieces of armor were confirmed to have been captured (Not counting Crimea).

About the volunteers, a border between Russia and Ukraine is about 2.5 thousands km long. For instance, Germany has it's whole border 3.5 thousands km long.

The Ukraine-Russia border was almost opened till this spring. No fences, no trenches, only Checkpoints on roads.

And now you blame Russia that it doesn't close that huge part of the border so fast?

How should we do it? Can you even imagine how much money and effort it will take?

The border between russia and the separatists territory is only about 80-100kms long and was much smaller before and with 45.000 battle ready soldiers directly at the border, how can they not notice hundreds of btrs cross the border? Thats like what? A soldier every two meters? This has been going on for such a long time, you have to try really hard to believe that. Also, they are constantly monitoring the border with Drones, which have been shot down over ukrainian territory countless times, it surely can't be this hard to notice BTRs and Tanks, especially if normal citizens can do it so easily.

Why won't Ukraine do it from it's side?

You are joking, right?

Edited August 13, 2014 by beastcat

[mistyronin 1181]

I'm telling you - they are leftist extremists, whose grandfathers were communists fighting arm to arm with russians against forces of general Franco and Germany during 1936-39. There are many people in Spain (just like in Cuba) named Ivan, Dimitri, Fyodor, Sergei, Alexey named because pro russian sympathies and russian involvement during Spanish war and still carrying communist ideals in their heads. Now they decided to find a good moment to do something, paying some sort of debt. Just like serbians supporting pro russian terrorist group. It' wasn't any secret that russian aides, advisors and spec ops served in serbian forces during the war in former Yugoslavia.

Hahaha yeah well. I lived enough years in Spain ( and in different cities ) so I know more or less who they are.

And yeah in certain parts of Spain there's lots of pro communist / left wing extremists, some of the PCE ( the traditional Communist party, I have a good friend who is a president of a regional commite of that party, whose former Internet nick was Stalin, and even an ex girlfriend who also was militant in it ).

Although Ivan has always been a common name there, the others no, in that sense is not like in Cuba. In fact specially in the South of Spain the typical names are from US TV series ( Kevin, Charles, etc. ).

Communists are typical in the South: Extremadura, Andalucía, Murcia and in Asturias in the north. Central Spain mainly is the territory of the profascist right wing including the northern Galicia, Cantabria, and so on.

And then you have Catalonia which used to be one of the capitals of the Anarchism in the world, and now is a bit mixture of Socialism, Liberalism and Anarchism ( there are still a lot of anarchist riots and so on ), I'd dare to compare Catalonia with Sweden or the Nordic welfare state ( there is lot of similarities, in fact Catalonia is one of the most important industrial areas of Europe ). Catalonian people have historically been more democratic than the rest of Spain ( in fact the Catalan-Aragon Kings were known to be really pactist while the Castilian/Spanish Kings were dictatorial ).

And finally Euskadi which is a bit weird because you can find a whole rainbow of ideologies, most of them quite extremist. From the extreme left wing E.T.A. and Abertzale, to a more moderate PNV nationalist and ending with the worst of the rotten Spanish fascism.

[aleksadragutin 9]

No, not every rebel fighter, but you can't deny russian involvement, when official russian recruitment offices are recruiting people for fighting against Ukraine, when heavy armor is crossing the border (more on that a bit later), when russian artillery is firing at Ukraine, when we have evidence that weapons and armor is being supplied by russia, when most of the separatists are russian citizens and so on.

Seriously, why do I and everybody else have to repeat the same points over and over again?

Because what you say is hypocritical and often contradictory.

[beastcat 14]

Because what you say is hypocritical and often contradictory.

For example?

[mistyronin 1181]

Funny note: I forgot that the Catalans are seen so different for their culture, language, etc. that the rest of Spanish call them Polish as an insult.

[beastcat 14]

Funny note: I forgot that the Catalans are seen so different for their culture, language, etc. that the rest of Spanish call them Polish as an insult.

I was there once (Well, multiple times, but the sentence would sound weird), it was nice. Doesn't Catalonia want to separate from the rest of the country for some reason as well?

[aleksadragutin 9]

For example?

How you chose to support one thing on one side, but the same rules don't apply for the other. Sometimes you do sound like you were payed to post here.

---------- Post added at 14:53 ---------- Previous post was at 14:50 ----------

Funny note: I forgot that the Catalans are seen so different for their culture, language, etc. that the rest of Spanish call them Polish as an insult.

I have a neighbor that married a Catalan. They live there, but come here every august. He gets very upset when you refer to him as Spanish.

[beastcat 14]

How you chose to support one thing on one side, but the same rules don't apply for the other. Sometimes you do sound like you were payed to post here.

I explained why I hold this position and why those are two completely different cases, I don't see the problem.

[sudden 13]

No, not every rebel fighter, but you can't deny russian involvement, when official russian recruitment offices are recruiting people for fighting against Ukraine, when heavy armor is crossing the border (more on that a bit later), when russian artillery is firing at Ukraine, when we have evidence that weapons and armor is being supplied by russia, when most of the separatists are russian citizens and so on.

Seriously, why do I and everybody else have to repeat the same points over and over again?

That's where a real problem is. How can I deny Russian involvement? How can Evil Russia not be involved? It's obvious for everyone!

But at the moment it happens that Russia just sit and watch Ukranians kill each other. Which is sad, but there's nothing we can do.

Three months of conflict has passed and not a single Russian passport, not a single rifle, nothing was found.

What tanks and BTRs are you talking about when a humanitarian convoy can't even get close to the border without being mentioned in Obama's speech?

Do you think that if some tanks or AA systems would pass the border, US satellites won't see it and next day everyone in the world see the proof of Russian Agression.

All you have is Western media working 24/7 trying to hide the truth. And the truth is simple. There's no any Russian Aggression. But thanks to media, not many people in the world can accept this truth.

Yes there is, for a long time already.

Heres a small Reuters article about it.

The dude from Ukraine@War did a great job at tracing the path the Buk and other weapons took to Ukraine from Russia and there was a huge exhibition in Kiev where they presented captured weapons, documents, passports, you name it. But hey, you can call it fabricated propaganda or whatever and say the hundreds of BTRs, tanks, AKs, Iglas, Arty, mortars, Grads and so on were captured or just magically appeared, but during the whole conflict only 4 pieces of armor were confirmed to have been captured (Not counting Crimea).

The border between russia and the separatists territory is only about 80-100kms long and was much smaller before and with 45.000 battle ready soldiers directly at the border, how can they not notice hundreds of btrs cross the border? Thats like what? A soldier every two meters? This has been going on for such a long time, you have to try really hard to believe that. Also, they are constantly monitoring the border with Drones, which have been shot down over ukrainian territory countless times, it surely can't be this hard to notice BTRs and Tanks, especially if normal citizens can do it so easily.

Even if I would be threated with death, I would never believe to whatever Reuters say. It's a most biased information agency in the world. And I agree, compared to them Vice News are as neutral as it's possible.

The real situation is that Ukraine Government really dreams about having Russian involvement in the conflict to gain help from NATO. But there's no involvement. Only volunteers who make their personal decisions.

And time is running out...

Edited August 13, 2014 by sudden

[beastcat 14]

[sudden 13]

And that's what I call propaganda. :-)

[mistyronin 1181]

And that's what I call propaganda. :-)

I don't know if propaganda, but that video is lacking data. I don't know I would like to know what opinion have Peruvians about Putin, or from any other country that is not. Because although it was meant to be a comparison Russian vs the rest of the world, and most of the sources of "the world" were from US.

[beastcat 14]

Three months of conflict has passed and not a single Russian passport, not a single rifle, nothing was found.

What tanks and BTRs are you talking about when a humanitarian convoy can't even get close to the border without being mentioned in Obama's speech?

Do you think that if some tanks or AA systems would pass the border, US satellites won't see it and next day everyone in the world see the proof of Russian Agression.

You know whats funny?

We have hundreds of passports, we have satellite images and the US has been speaking about russia supplying weapons all the time. We have published proof, we have everything.

I mean hell, the separatist leader is a russian citizen who was never in Ukraine before and worked for the FSB and GRU, but again, I'm just repeating points that have been mentioned hundreds of times before. Sometimes I feel people ask questions just to drag on the conversation for some reason and they know everything already, because its almost impossible not to.

If you want to get sources you can read up on wikipedia, they have a huge amount of sources from every possible place, maybe you will even find something that you don't consider to be evil propaganda.

But lets debunk the points, not in a global scale, but just what you said.

"not a single Russian passport" - Igor Girkin, the leader of the operation. Russian citizen, "former" member of the GRU and FSB. Also hundreds of passports after every ATO operation and on exibitions, but those are all fabricated and just propaganda, right?

"not a single rifle" - The only way to proof that are serial numbers and documents, but you consider all of those propaganda. This is probably just propaganda as well.

"What tanks and BTRs are you talking about" - This one maybe. But again, how am I supposed to proof something, if everything exept for russian media is propaganda?

"Do you think that if some tanks or AA systems would pass the border, US satellites won't see it and next day everyone in the world see the proof of Russian Agression." -

http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014/07/us-satellite-images-show-russian.html

But yeah, everything is fabricated propaganda, so theres not even a reason to look into it.

[mistyronin 1181]

Yeah, well, that are Russians in the pro-Russian side is obvious and has been proven several times.

A lot of the leaders of the "Donetsk Republic" were Russian citizens and they never hide that fact, also some of the soldiers ( they even shown the passport ).

[batto 17]

All you have is Western media working 24/7 trying to hide the truth. And the truth is simple. There's no any Russian Aggression. But thanks to media, not many people in the world can accept this truth.

To which God should I pray to accept this truth? Critical thinking while reading news is blasphemy. Accept true truth!

[sudayev 27]

According to information presented on the website of the Russian Foreign Ministry, the cargo included 69 power plants, 400 tons, 340 tons of canned meat, 30 tons of salt, 100 tons of sugar, 60 tons of canned milk, 0,8 tons of tea, 679,5 tons of bottled water, 62,4 tons of baby food, 54 tons of medical property and 12.3 thousand sleeping bags.

Again about convoys. I had a truck driving episode in my life and one thing came to my mind - why are they are driving being quarter-loaded?

Simple calculation. Russian authorities have said about 2000 tonnes of cargo and all the media caught this - convoy contains 2000 tonnes of let's say - aid.

2000 tonnes on 280 trucks is equal to ~7.2 tonne per truck! What we see on photos are semi-trailer that can be loaded up to 28 tonnes of cargo. I wonder what makes missing 20 tonnes per every truck?

280 trucks x 22(typical load) tonnes = 6160 tonnes.

Since russian govt declared 2000 tonnes of aid then what makes remaining 4000 tonnes of aid?:confused_o:

From a logistical point of view 2000 tonnes can be moved much more effectively and cost efficiently by 94 trucks loaded to 21 tonnes per trailer.

It doesn't make any sense why they are sending almost 300 trucks BARELY loaded. Some "extra" supplies, evacuation for terrorists, hell knows...

Edited August 13, 2014 by Sudayev