Ukraine General

[ProfTournesol 956]

Exactly. France should invade all regions surrounding it and French speaking, such as parts of Belgium, parts of Switzerland, Monaco, etc. Or maybe claim Quebec or Louisiana back.

[exe_74rus 1]

Who knows, that during the "Mongol yoke" Rus paid into the general treasury of 10% tax, manage their own cities, ferries, guarded her part of the external borders of the empire. That during the "Mongol yoke" was in fear of death curse Christianity and monasteries were exempt from taxes? What accounts for this century heyday of wooden architecture.

And that "Mongolian impreriya" did not leave behind any physical evidence. Russian history that adopted in the west edinsvennoe true, wrote the German historian Miller does not speak Russian. He is very hot indeed argued Russian scientist Lomonosov.

About ridicule and borders. If someone does not understand the world ruled by force. Always and everywhere. So it was, is, and always will be. History is always written by the victors. It is necessary to understand and accept. It is neither bad nor good. This is the world.

Today force is taking shape not only the military, it should be remembered in the first place.

You also need to remember two civilizations "land" and "sea". And the whole world politics the past 300 years, the country's "Sea" does not allow countries to bridge the "Sushi" pitting us together. Globally, it is still impossible. American Institute of Russian Studies, knowingly eat their own bread. But do not dump us off. Russia is an unpredictable country.

On your every trick we ovechaem unpredictable folly. And this is often the smartest genius plan.

Edited June 4, 2014 by exe_74rus

[ProfTournesol 956]

Welcome to middle age. And Google translations are awful.

[vilas 477]

in short - borders are ridiculous thing cause stronger is always right cause world is ruled by power not morality and those who are weaker must accept that they do not have any rights < Russian mentality

[spooky lynx 73]

in short - borders are ridiculous thing cause stronger is always right cause world is ruled by power not morality and those who are weaker must accept that they do not have any rights < Russian mentality

So why Yugoslavian, then FR Yugoslavia and Macedonian borders became ridiculous? Can you answer, Vilas?

[mistyronin 1181]

So why Yugoslavian, then FR Yugoslavia and Macedonian borders became ridiculous? Can you answer, Vilas?

Because people from the different nations inside it decided peacefully to have their independence.

Not because a huge bully neighbor ( Russia ) invaded part of them and created an armed insurrection inside.

BTW

( Bloomberg ) Does Russia's Global Media Empire Distort the News? You Be the Judge

But RT is only part of the Kremlin’s global media empire. The state-run Rossiya Segodnya International Information Agency includes not only RT but the RIA Novosti news wire, the Voice of Russia radio service, and a Berlin-based video news agency called Ruptly. Separately, the Russian government also owns the ITAR-TASS news wire, which has some 130 bureaus around the world.

[Tonci87 163]

Because people from the different nations inside it decided peacefully to have their independence.

Not because a huge bully neighbor ( Russia ) invaded part of them and created an armed insurrection inside.

BTW

( Bloomberg ) Does Russia's Global Media Empire Distort the News? You Be the Judge

And dont forget that those nations were seeking independence for decades, if not even centuries. And those nations didn't simply start an armed insurrection but organized a vote without heavily armed thugs at each street corner.

Then the huge bully neighbor (Serbia) invaded the country and created an armed insurrection inside.

I'll say it again, history is repeating itself.

The Ukraine didnt want to obey Moscow any more so they invaded a part of their country and scared the ethnic Russian population into thinking that Ukraine is full of fashists who want to kill them. As the next step they created an armed insurrection in another part of the country and actively support it...

The very same things Serbia tried to do with Bosnia and Croatia.

[spooky lynx 73]

Because people from the different nations inside it decided peacefully to have their independence.

Indeed peacefully, with seizing arsenals, using territorial defence detachments as military power and attacking central army convoys.

I'd remind you that people of South-Eastern Ukraine started with peaceful demands for federalisation and rejection of maidan. Then they were told to shut up and carry on. Earlier these people demanded for using Russian language as second state (quite normal practice in 'free world'). Again they were told either to shut up or get out to Russia. You know, the patience is not infinite.

Oh and mr. MistyRonin, how can you explain that Albanians, who arrived to Macedonia, started to demand various rights shortly and took weapons? And why noone supported Macedonia in their struggle with rebellion and separatism in the 'free world'? How do you think why noone supported Macedonian anti-terrorist operation?

[mistyronin 1181]

Indeed peacefully, with seizing arsenals, using territorial defence detachments as military power and attacking central army convoys.

Yeah, for example Slovenia no? The first one to get the independence... A democratic vote. That was militarily attacked by the Serbs provoking the Ten Day war.

Serbia followed with almost all of them the same pattern. When they democratically decided their independence, Serbia attacked them with their army. With the exception of Macedonia who achieved their independence peacefully.

I'd remind you that people of South-Eastern Ukraine started with peaceful demands for federalisation and rejection of maidan. Then they were told to shut up and carry on. Earlier these people demanded for using Russian language as second state (quite normal practice in 'free world'). Again they were told either to shut up or get out to Russia. You know, the patience is not infinite.

Yeah of course, after a couple months they started an armed insurrection... what a patience... Look nations like Catalonia or Euskadi where Catalan and Euskara were forbidden by the Spanish government for dozens of years. And a long etc.

The civil rights are fight democratically, not with armed insurrections... ( that applies for everyone ) And obviously never after just a few weeks... Weapons should only used in critical situations and to protect their lives ( like when the Serbs started a genocide in the Balkans ); that has not happen in Ukraine.

Your argument is ridiculous and dangerous; because following it thousands of wars could begin in the world.

[Tonci87 163]

Indeed peacefully, with seizing arsenals, using territorial defence detachments as military power and attacking central army convoys.

I'd remind you that people of South-Eastern Ukraine started with peaceful demands for federalisation and rejection of maidan. Then they were told to shut up and carry on. Earlier these people demanded for using Russian language as second state (quite normal practice in 'free world'). Again they were told either to shut up or get out to Russia. You know, the patience is not infinite.

Oh and mr. MistyRonin, how can you explain that Albanians, who arrived to Macedonia, started to demand various rights shortly and took weapons? And why noone supported Macedonia in their struggle with rebellion and separatism in the 'free world'? How do you think why noone supported Macedonian anti-terrorist operation?

You really don't know what you are talking about....

I'll use the example of Croatia since that is best known to me.

Before the independence referendum we had DECADES of peacefull political campaigns to gain our independence (add to that that Croatia had idependence movements for centuries). All were crushed or supressed by the central Belgrad authorities.

You can read that up here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_Spring

The security service UDBA even went so far to assasinate Croatian emigrants who supported the independence movement all around the world! This list here is not complete, there are many names missing on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Security_Administration#Eliminations.5B4.5D

When Croatia voted for independence the Serbian military bombed the main government building in Zagreb.

Before that Serbian propaganda had already influenced the Krajina Serbs so much that they took up arms (supplied by the SFRY), blocked the Krajina region and fought against the Police.

Croatia didnt have ANY military at that point. The Croatian military was non existent. The only armed force was the police and they had mostly handguns.

After the declaration of independence Belgard started a full out war by besieging the cities of Vukovar and Dubrovnik and advancing troops towards Zadar to cut Croatia in half.

Only then did Croatia start to build up a military force with volunters and without any heavy weapons (the SFRY had emptied all their Weapon depots and disarmed the police before pulling out of Croatia (before the start of the war))

So are you really going to compare the separatist movement in East Ukraine to Croatias fight for independence? If yes then you know nothing about history.

[spooky lynx 73]

Yeah, for example Slovenia no? The first one to get the independence... A democratic vote. That was militarily attacked by the Serbs provoking the Ten Day war.

Serbia followed with almost all of them the same pattern. When they democratically decided their independence, Serbia attacked them with their army. With the exception of Macedonia who achieved their independence peacefully.

Please read your own link, part "Preparations for war". Creating own parallel military structures, attempts to get control at TO arsenals, creating plans of attacking YPA and buying MANPADs and AT weapons from black market are truly peaceful things, indeed FPDR

Then, read latter parts like "26 June 1991" - you can clearly see the same things were in Donbass when unarmed people tried to stop advancing military convoys.

In the afternoon of 27 June, the Slovenian TO (Slovenian Territorial Defence) shot down two YPA helicopters[17] with SA-7 missiles, one of them a Gazelle over Ljubljana,[18] killing the occupants (one of whom, Toni Mrlak, was a Slovenian pilot, as the YPA's forces consisted of nationals from all the republics).

Slovenia was officially recognized on 15/01/92. So separatists shot down two helos of government army before clashes started. Peaceful way to seek for independence you say? If so, why are people of Donbass called terrorists for the same things?

Yeah of course, after a couple months they started an armed insurrection... what a patience... Look nations like Catalonia or Euskadi where Catalan and Euskara were forbidden by the Spanish government for dozens of years. And a long etc.

Should they wait for Svoboda nationalists to come and torture them or burn alive like in Odessa? Your naivity really astonishes me. Neither Catalonians nor Euskara (Basques?) suffered from arrivals of 'trains of friendship' full of nationalists armed with sticks, knives and guns. They were not attacked and trapped in the buildings which then were set afire. They were not threatened by advancing military columns and low-flying armed planes and choppers.

The civil rights are fight democratically, not with armed insurrections... ( that applies for everyone ) And obviously never after just a few weeks... Weapons should only used in critical situations and to protect their lives ( like when the Serbs started a genocide in the Balkans ); that has not happen in Ukraine.

Your argument is ridiculous and dangerous; because following it thousands of wars could begin in the world.

Sure they should been waited for Ukrainian junta to deploy Grads and massive artillery attack like that on Tskhinval and hundreds of deaths... If you see that current regime is ruled by ultra-nationalists like Irina Farion then you don't need to be genius to realise that your life is in danger and it's better to make some preventive steps to secure it.

You may dislike my arguments but I have to upset you: numerous wars were already started (Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Southern Sudan etc.).

[mistyronin 1181]

Slovenia was officially recognized on 15/01/92. So separatists shot down two helos of government army before clashes started. Peaceful way to seek for independence you say? If so, why are people of Donbass called terrorists for the same things?.

Slovenian people decided de facto it's independence on the 23th of December of 1990, and was de jure proclaimed on 25 June 1991 ( at the same time as Croatia ), the hostilities began the day after when the Yugoslavian Army lead by Serbian extremists tried to crush it.

As you could see, the Slovenian Government since December of 1990 had the obligation to create structures of country, like a Defense plan and equipment.

Should they wait for Svoboda nationalists to come and torture them or burn alive like in Odessa?

That's an interesting fact. Because I was watching that day the events in Odessa through different streaming cameras live. And it was clearly seen the fire that ignited the wooden barricades that propagate inside the building was started by the Molotov Cocktails that pro-Russian throw from the roof of the building to deter Ukrainian to enter it.

That the fights were harsh and some Ukrainians killed some pro-Russians it's true, but it happen the same otherwise.

Your naivity really astonishes me. Neither Catalonians nor Euskara (Basques?) suffered from arrivals of 'trains of friendship' full of nationalists armed with sticks, knives and guns. They were not attacked and trapped in the buildings which then were set afire. They were not threatened by advancing military columns and low-flying armed planes and choppers.

You should study history. Barcelona, capital of Catalonia has been the one of the city most bombed in the world in this last 300 years ( and the 99% of the attacks were by the Spanish Army ).

To not talk about the Cultural Genocide. In the same way as in Ukraine, that Peter the Great started policies of Russification ( forbidding the Ukrainian Language among others ), that continued with all the Czars, and even Stalin's Genocide of Ukrainian people was to try to make Ukraine become ethnically Russia ( what we will call today ethnic cleansing ). In Catalonia started with the Philip V's decree of Nueva Planta of 1716 and continued with the different regimes specially hard during the recent Dictatorship of General Franco ( with legal torture, executions in mass, concentration camps, etc. ).

Sure they should been waited for Ukrainian junta to deploy Grads and massive artillery attack like that on Tskhinval and hundreds of deaths...

Nor the government of Ukraine is ruled by ultra-nationalist, the recently elected President Poroshenko has no links with any ultra-nationalist movement, and the provisional government although it contained a minority of extremist parties ( as it was a unity gov. with members from all the wide range of political parties ). Nor any step was taken to kill any Ukrainian ethnically Russian ( the proof is that only two regions of the country have started a rebellion, when the Russian speaking Ukrainians live in more than half of Ukraine ).

The only armed response by the Ukrainian Gov. took place after the aggressive armed pro-Russians started an insurrection in the far East of Ukraine following the Russian military invasion of Crimea.

You may dislike my arguments but I have to upset you: numerous wars were already started (Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Southern Sudan etc.).

The main problem with your arguments is that you try to twist history to justify gratuitous acts of violence. Which as I said is really worrying and sad. But having in mind who Russian allies are ( from genocide dictators like Al Assad or Kim Jong-un ) and how Russian controlled propaganda is... I can't blame you.

[Tonci87 163]

Please read your own link, part "Preparations for war". Creating own parallel military structures, attempts to get control at TO arsenals, creating plans of attacking YPA and buying MANPADs and AT weapons from black market are truly peaceful things, indeed FPDR

Then, read latter parts like "26 June 1991" - you can clearly see the same things were in Donbass when unarmed people tried to stop advancing military convoys.

Slovenia was officially recognized on 15/01/92. So separatists shot down two helos of government army before clashes started. Peaceful way to seek for independence you say? If so, why are people of Donbass called terrorists for the same things?

Seems like you didn't read it or you are simply ignorant.

Clashes didn´t start in 1990, they started before that when Serbs tried to overthrow local governments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_North

Everyone knew what was going to happen if a republic declares it´s independence and everyone started preparations for that, including the Serbs.

Everyone knew what Milosevics great plan was

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Serbia

What do you think this was about?

Immediately after the Slovenian elections, the Yugoslav People's Army (YPA) announced a new defence doctrine that would apply across the country. The Tito-era doctrine of "General People's Defence", in which each republic maintained a Territorial Defence Force (Teritorialna obramba or TO), was to be replaced by a centrally directed system of defence. The republics would lose their role in defence matters, and their TOs would be disarmed and subordinated to YPA headquarters in Belgrade.

All republics had their own small national guard. Before the outbreak of the war the Central government tried to completely dissarm those national guards (they didn´t really succeed in Slovenia, but in Croatia they took away almost all weapons) in preparation for a SFRY Invasion.

The Ten Day war was only so short because the Army couldn´t ensure safe supply routes through Croatia. So they pulled out of Slovenia to focus on Croatia first and then recapture Slovenia after that.

[[frl]myke 14]

Gentlemen, may i remind you that the topic is about the Ukraine. Thank you.

[vilas 477]

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/ukraina-terrorysci-zabijaja-porwanych-bies-zada-uwolnienia-swojego-czlowieka/qejqd

Russian terrorists killing hostages, they demand free terrorists or will be killing another hostages

[mistyronin 1181]

Russian terrorists killing hostages, they demand free terrorists or will be killing another hostages

In this piece of news you can see the supposed video of the execution ( which I will obviously not post here, as it would be against the forum rules )

( Kyiv Post ) Turchynov says blood of men executed by Horlivka separatist leader 'Demon' is on Russia's hands

It is possible that the event was a mock execution. In May, Bezler said he had shot two district police chiefs who had been taken prisoner after refusing to swear allegiance to the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic. Later it was discovered that the two men were alive and had been released.

[surpher 1]

(BBC) Putin meets Poroshenko in France

Russian President Vladimir Putin has met Ukrainian President-elect Petro Poroshenko for the first time since his election, at a D-Day event in France.

[mistyronin 1181]

According to the Russian media, Ukraine's Army have started to use tanks in Sloviansk. The situation escalates one step upward. Which in other hand is no wonder if the armed insurgents are getting all kinds of weapons ( AT, AA, armored vehicles ) and spec-ops training.

( ITAR-TASS ) Ukraine’s Sloviansk under heavy fire from armored vehicles

Combat armored vehicles, including tanks, of pro-Kiev military forces are actively attacking and shelling the eastern Ukrainian city of Sloviansk, a spokeswoman for the Sloviansk people’s mayor said on Friday.

“We can hear salvo fire of howitzers, and also have information that the city was shelled with jet-propelled projectiles,†Stella Khorosheva told an ITAR-TASS correspondent. “The highway linking Sloviansk and the (nearby) settlement of Semyonovka is crammed with military hardware

---------- Post added at 18:20 ---------- Previous post was at 18:15 ----------

( NY Times ) Separatists Kill Member of Ukrainian Special Forces

Pro-Russian separatists operating from the grounds of a church in the eastern city of Slaviansk killed a member of the Ukrainian interior ministry's special forces and seriously wounded two others in a mortar attack on Friday, the ministry said.

[Tonci87 163]

I wouldn´t believe anything that spokeswoman says...

[exe_74rus 1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja4c8sHHhSE

[mistyronin 1181]

I don't understand exe_74rus this video you have published have some of the images from the sources that I was following in live streaming that day... BUT magically they omit precisely the moment of the beginning of the main fire, were you could clearly seen how the pro-Russians were guarding the gate of the building from that wooden barricades, with the Ukrainians at a distance of what seemed 50-100 meters starting to surround the building and then some pro-Russians from the roof throwing molotov cocktails that ignited the wooden barricades.

Quite a coincidence, specially having in mind that it's a video of almost 2 hours, precisely about that fire in the main gate that killed so many people.

In the video you can also see some of the exterior barricades burning, and why would the Ukrainians start fires between them? Were they making a barbecue? Or someone from the roof throw them that molotov cocktails?

BTW also quite funny, it tries to sell that the pro-Russians that were shooting with guns were Ukrainians provocateurs...

Edited June 7, 2014 by MistyRonin

[mistyronin 1181]

[mistyronin 1181]

Interesting, some of the supposed Russian "journalist" arrested by Ukraine, were faking that they were from a Finnish TV, even having fake documentation...

( Yle ) Russian journalists detained for spying in Ukraine – claimed to be Finnish media

Russian journalists claiming to be representatives of Finnish MTV media company’s television channel MTV3 were detained on charges of spying and intelligence gathering near the city of Uzhhorod, says Ukraine’s interior minister.

The GRU should improve their fake identities.

[Tonci87 163]

It is dead easy to check if a journalist is legit. Just ask him for his Twitter acount.

[sgtsev3n 12]

never believe anything what CNN, BBC etc say. they are 24h lying!

in ukraine there was a western backed fake "revolution" to destroy janukowitsch regime and change it with pro EU regime and now the new regime that has been installed there bombs theyr own people and our media is silent!