Ukraine General

[spooky lynx 73]

Jew-reptiloid Kolomoisky can do anything to save and enlarge his business empire and get moar power in Ukraine. And killing of Ukrainian army troops who hadn't hurried to wipe out all the 'terrorists' is not the worst thing he may do.

[blu3sman 11]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russian-trains-planes-move-army-away-from-ukraine/2014/05/22/25cf7894-e178-11e3-9442-54189bf1a809_story.html

A leading rebel commander claimed responsibility for the raid. In the courtyard of the occupied police headquarters of the town of Horlivka, he displayed seized Ukrainian weapons and the passports of what he said were two of the dead soldiers. He also provided coordinates about the location of the attack shortly after it had occurred. There was no way to confirm his claim independently.“We destroyed a checkpoint of the fascist Ukrainian army deployed on the land of the Donetsk Republic,†said the commander, who wore a balaclava and insisted he be identified by his nom de guerre, “Bes†— Russian for “demon.†He said one of his men also was killed.

Pavel Gubarev, a representative of the separatist Donetsk People’s Republic, denied its men had carried out the attack, however. Gubarev, who does not appear to have much influence with the separatist group, appeared on Russian TV and accused Ukrainian nationalists from the group Right Sector of firing on Ukrainian soldiers because they had refused to attack civilians.

Some commanders don't care about stupid propaganda anymore.

[Tonci87 163]

[vilas 473]

EDIT: I have no idea what is going on here

Friendly fire?

i know i would sound borring, but once again :

1) corruption,

2) nepothism

ad 1)

in country ruled by Oligarchs you have rather XVII c. structure of small knight-noble-count castle-countries,

in Oligarchy there is no "Ukrainian army vs. pro-Russian community" situation only, you have also "one oligarch vs. other oligarch business issues" too

Oligarchs (bilionaries) have their own "forces" like it was in middle ages , Ukraine is not country led by "federal government" but rather "area on which some mafia bosses called businesman do huge money without any remorse"

it is like Africa - but instead of religion-family-clan you have businesman/bank owner etc.

they afraid of 2 situations : Putin, Right Sector, why ? neither Putin, nor Right Sector would allow businesman to be over government , they do not want neither Russia, nor Nationalists, Putin would stop them stealing on their own (without his percent and his agreement) and Nationalists who would be voted would try put them to prisons,

so Oligarchs act like it was middleages , local count has his county,

Ukraine is far from being called modern state in which federal government keep all under control and supervision under federal law,

ad 2)

in country where nepothism is strong , all commanders, directors etc. are taken by family-relatives key, noone looks at skills, competence, knowledge, so also technical-analphabete, job-analphabete can give orders,

small metaphore - Polish roads

Poland has one of worst roads, highway in EU,

the same time 1 km of road in Poland costs more than 1 km of super quality road in Germany or Austria

why if our worker earns 5 times less than German?

because in Germany you have money spent on good quality raw materials and 1 director,

in PL you have money spend on "1000 managers, 200 directors" instead of materials, all of those directors are taken to office by nepothism , they are technical idiots who finished studies with worst marks but their daddy in Ministry gave them job in office responsible for roads...

the same now you can take to Ukraine

but in Army

the worst guys in Academy had daddy in Ministry, this daddy made them Generals, Colonels, but they are technical-idiots who cannot lead soldiers

they are giving wrong orders not because they want to harm soldiers, but because their professional skills are equal zero and their high officer rank is because daddy or uncle was in Ministry , KGB, whatever

2 worst things for any country are nepothism and corruption < noone want to die for such country , soldier will not give life for country which f* him from any angle (Crimean situation of soliders changing "state" they serve),

i can bet that half of Ukrainians instead of defending their country dream only about emigration (EU membership)

i would vote for option 2 - incompetent officer gave wrong order to also incompetent pilot cause both guys get promotion not thanx to skills but thankx to family relatives, in past of Ukrainian "war" we seen few very incompetent actions of guys whose profesional skills are zero (some Hinds destroyed that were not able to destroy one BMD, while with profesional crew one Hind can destroy platoon of BMDs, flying at range that can be shoot but individual weapons etc. )

Edited May 24, 2014 by vilas

[Tonci87 163]

Well I don´t think that a friendly fire incident can be connected to corruption and nepothism....

[lesscubes 1]

So are we trying to say that the Hind crews were paid to smoke their buddies on the ground, or that they're so daft that they see a bunch of guys standing next to a truck, in the open, can't identify them, figure they MUST be enemy and light them up?

I mean, it looks a lot like option #2 there.

I'm curious about what was happening before the Hinds rolled in, were the attackers all gone at that point or were the army troops thinking that standing next to a Ural in a field counted as cover?

[Tonci87 163]

I think the hinds did recognize the troops behind the Ural as friendly, but seeing how they were facing and watching those explosions they assumed that the enemy is in the treeline and lit up the whole thing. At least it looks as if they were concentrating the fire on the treeline.

[spooky lynx 73]

Helo crews flew very low, and Mi-8 almost landed there. There was enough time for pilots to recognize ground troops, if they are friend or foe. So if they had fired I have only two options: either pilots were dumb or they knew it's friendly troops and fired at them expressly. Moreover civil ambulances arrived at the place of battle at that time so there were no firefight, so no reasons to open fire. Judging that poor guys' words I may say they hadn't called for air support and hadn't expected the arrival of the helicopters.

[blu3sman 11]

At the time the air support arrived, one of BMPs detonated, so they thought combat is still going. So hinds began to work on the treeline. One person got wounded due to FF. Usual shitty communication beetween air and ground.

That is nothing compared to incompetence of commander who made his guys stay by the side of the road with zero defensive measures. They were just sitting there like on a camping trip.

[spooky lynx 73]

If you watch the videos taken just after the firefight you'll see BMPs are caught on fire but the fire is at the surface of hulls and rather small. It should be much bigger to cause such huge detonation. Moreover BMP which was first standing has holes in upper part of hull, near driver's hatch. For me it seems the detonation was caused by fire from helos.

[Tonci87 163]

If you watch the videos taken just after the firefight you'll see BMPs are caught on fire but the fire is at the surface of hulls and rather small. It should be much bigger to cause such huge detonation. Moreover BMP which was first standing has holes in upper part of hull, near driver's hatch. For me it seems the detonation was caused by fire from helos.

No the detonation was caused by internal ammo explosion. The aftermath was quite characteristic with the turret beeing blown away.

[mistyronin 1181]

No the detonation was caused by internal ammo explosion. The aftermath was quite characteristic with the turret beeing blown away.

Yep, just a helo missile, would certainly make a huge hole towards the interior, but the flying turret is a classic of the ammo exploding ( it's quite spectacular ).

Jack-in-the-box effect

The jack-in-the-box effect refers to a specific effect of a catastrophic kill on a tank or other turreted armored vehicle in which an ammunition explosion causes the tank's turret to be violently blown off the chassis and into the air. It is named after the child's toy, the jack-in-the-box, in which a puppet pops up.

While relatively uncommon, it is a very visually iconic image of the complete destruction of a tank, and is thus seen often in movies, TV, and video games.

- - - - -

Edited May 25, 2014 by MistyRonin

[mistyronin 1181]

Weird elections with part of the country in almost war state.

( Kyiv Post ) High turnout in Ukraine vote; Kremlin-backed separatists march to Akhmetov's house in Donetsk

Observers say 15 out of 34 constituency election commissions not working in Donetsk Oblast

Armed Kremlin-backed separatists march on Akhmetov's house, Taruta's hotel in Donetsk

2:14 p.m. A dangerous situation is brewing in Donetsk Oblast, as some 2,000 armed pro-Rusisan separatists and their supporters left a rally in Donetsk's Lenin Square with orders to march to the home of billionaire Rinat Akhmetov in the city. A smaller group, armed with Kalashnikovs and other weapons, stormed interim Donetsk Governor Sergiy Taruta's Victoria Hotel looking for him. They left because he wasn't there. The anti-Akhmetov crowd chanted: "Akhmetov is an enemy of the people."

[spooky lynx 73]

No the detonation was caused by internal ammo explosion. The aftermath was quite characteristic with the turret beeing blown away.

True. But from what I've seen at the video taken just after the battle BMPs hadn't taken a hits that could lead to ammo explosion. IMHO further attack of helo by ATGM or gun caused ammo cook-off.

[Tonci87 163]

True. But from what I've seen at the video taken just after the battle BMPs hadn't taken a hits that could lead to ammo explosion. IMHO further attack of helo by ATGM or gun caused ammo cook-off.

Three Reasons why you are wrong

1. Evidently the BMPs took hits, I don´t know what video you saw but it is very possible that the BMP burned from teh inside and that this wasn´t very visible on the video. If such a closed vehicle burns inside then you get really high temperatures wich lead to ammo and fuel explosions.

2. The helicopters came in very low and just before the explosion, they didn´t have any line of sights to the BMPs inside the treeline.

3. A Missile would have been visible or definately audible on the video since it would have to fly over that field where the men take cover behind the Ural. No missile can be heard.

You shoud really trust less those pro Russian forums, they dream up all kinds of nonsense....

[spooky lynx 73]

1. Evidently the BMPs took hits, I don´t know what video you saw but it is very possible that the BMP burned from teh inside and that this wasn´t very visible on the video.

This one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHr2qFEquJQ

[mistyronin 1181]

This one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHr2qFEquJQ

To me it looks like they are burning from the inside. What ignited them? Could be an RPG or a missile, or molotov cocktail thrown inside.

Although a helo missile would leave a big hole.

[Tonci87 163]

This one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHr2qFEquJQ

They are burning inside, if you look closely you can see that the flames are actually coming out of the driver hatch and other hatches. Honestly they should have closed that road....

[surpher 1]

(stopfake.org) Analysis of Events near Volnovaha

There are two main versions of events with respect to the attack on the 51st Motorized Infantry Brigade checkpoint, located near Volnovaha, Donetsk Region; 16 Ukrainian soldiers died as a result of the attack. The first version is being circulated by Russian mass media, and it states that the soldiers were killed by mercenaries, hired by the Governor of Dnipropetrovsk Region, Ihor Kolomoyskyi; he is also the owner of PrivatBank.

According to the second version, it was separatists who attacked the soldiers.

[Tonci87 163]

(stopfake.org) Analysis of Events near Volnovaha

@Spooky I urge you to read the whole analysis.

You find a lot of made up BS on Russian forums and even on Russian news, you have to be more critical.

[vilas 473]

Putin propaganda starts to twist history, Polish journalists found book promoted by Russian Ministry of Culture, in which Russian "historicians" deny Katyn crime , claime that Stalin crimes were made by Germans and that Poles mass murdered Russians after war,

if Russians "learn" from such books and they are told such history in school...

[mistyronin 1181]

( Reuters ) Battle at Donetsk airport; new Ukraine leader says no talks with 'terrorists'

Ukraine launched air strikes and a paratrooper assault against pro-Russian rebels who seized an airport on Monday, as its newly elected leader rejected any talks with "terrorists" and said a robust military campaign in the east should be able to put down a separatist revolt in "a matter of hours".

[ProfTournesol 956]

said a robust military campaign in the east should be able to put down a separatist revolt in "a matter of hours".

Yeah, wishful thinking.

[spooky lynx 73]

Good luck to Roshen.

Am I wrong or were Qaddafi and Assad labeled as bloody dictators for the same things? If so, why there's no shytestorm about bloody junta using assault helicopters that fire unguided rockets against cities and civilians from EU? And why nobody demands for establishing NFZ on Eastern Ukraine?

Edited May 26, 2014 by Spooky Lynx

[Tonci87 163]

Good luck to Roshen.

Am I wrong or were Qaddafi and Assad labeled as bloody dictators for the same things? If so, why there's no shytestorm about bloody junta using assault helicopters that fire unguided rockets against cities and civilians from EU? And why nobody demands for establishing NFZ on Eastern Ukraine?

Because it isn´t the same thing.

Qaddafi used it´s military against unarmed civilian protesters. Here is see armed forces engaging heavily armed gunmen who seized a public building.