Ukraine General

[pooroldspike 128]

Thanks Misty Ronin for the excellent maps and sitrep..:)

It seems the Kiev govt are bullying the Russian-speaking Donetsk and Luhansk areas and they don't like it.

Incidentally there are terrible videos on Liveleak of Luhansk civilians killed by an airstrike from Kiev, one woman has nearly had her legs blown off but is still alive.

Perhaps Luhansk, Donetsk and other eastern regions should do what Crimea did and join Russia. That way, Kiev wouldn't dare attack them because Putin would send in the Army and Air Force to protect them?

[mistyronin 1181]

It seems the Kiev govt are bullying the Russian-speaking Donetsk and Luhansk areas and they don't like it.

Incidentally there are terrible videos on Liveleak of Luhansk civilians killed by an airstrike from Kiev, one woman has nearly had her legs blown off but is still alive.

IMO it's not that simple. While the provisional Gov. hasn't been the best gov. ever, most of that attitudes can be seen in different other EU Govs ( for example Spain with their will to make Culturally Spanish, Catalans and Basques; or France ), and other Govs. around the world.

The problem is that this time, instead of fight for their rights peacefully as done in most of the world, in weeks certain violent groups took arms and commited all kind of crimes ( from murder, to kidnapping of international observers, torture of journalists, etc. ). All seem patronized, or at least supported by the Kremlin ( just have to read Kremlin's funded media ).

And promote more invasions by a foreign power like in Crimea, would lead to the circumstances that started 1st and 2nd world war.

This groups should learn how things are done in Scotland or Catalonia, in a peaceful democratic way.

[sgtsev3n 12]

FLY ZONE OVER EAST UKRAINE NEEDED!

the current western puppet & dictatorship government of ukraine is killing his own people and the media & western goverment are ignoring it!

the funniest thing is: it has been denied that current ukraine government using jets and bombing people, yet here are some video proves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAnZ4j_eb6I

lets remember libya: western dictatorship bombed gaddafi because (according to murder obama etc) he bombed his own people (which isnt true, he fought criminals and al-qaeda terrorists) and because gaddafi "bombed his own people", they in intervened. now, when a pro-EU NAZI government backed by barack BOMBama or Obomber and his allies bombs his own people, they say nothing. seems like bombing his own people is allowed for pro-EU pro-NATO governments.

fuck you obama fuck you EU fuck you NATO terrorists

[Tonci87 163]

Dude, there has only been one documented incident where a Jet shot civilians (and I would still like to know why) Jour first video is from the operation against the Separatists that tried to take the airport. No civilians harmed. Stop spreading your nonsense.

[mistyronin 1181]

I pretty amazed of how many people do believe Russian propaganda, even outside Russia ( specially because now a days few people check and contrast the information they receive ). I know that Russian Gov. propagandists have almost a century of experience. But they have adapted pretty well to new technologies. I don't think even Goebbles would have dream of a media like RT.

It's true that in other countries you mind find also a few highly manipulated channels like the FOX in the USA, but it's a private one and it's only one of hundreds of channels ( not like in Russia that the main ones are state controlled ).

[surpher 1]

(BBC) Ukraine to create humanitarian corridors

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has ordered the creation of humanitarian corridors for civilians to flee areas of the east hit by conflict.

In a statement, the presidency said ministers had been ordered to set up "all necessary conditions for civilians who want to leave".

(BBC Ukraine) Refugees from the Donbass region are finding refuge in Kharkov

Despite the fact that the number of people leaving the Basin, according to non-governmental organizations are talking thousands, here in Kharkiv, almost the entire burden of accommodation settlers falls on volunteers.

(BBC) EU-Moscow row over South Stream gas pipeline

Russia has accused the European Union of imposing "creeping" economic sanctions following Bulgaria's decision to halt construction of a gas pipeline.

[sgtsev3n 12]

I pretty amazed of how many people do believe Russian propaganda, even outside Russia ( specially because now a days few people check and contrast the information they receive ). I know that Russian Gov. propagandists have almost a century of experience. But they have adapted pretty well to new technologies. I don't think even Goebbles would have dream of a media like RT.

It's true that in other countries you mind find also a few highly manipulated channels like the FOX in the USA, but it's a private one and it's only one of hundreds of channels ( not like in Russia that the main ones are state controlled ).

sorry but i have to dissapoint you:

i am russian/kazakh and living in germany, yet i do not watch russian TV channel, nor american TV channels, nor german TV channels. i look into sources which are not in the hands of a state and they are only to find in internet. in every country the TV is a propaganda machine and not only FOX News are manipulating, but CNN, ABC etc too and used for state propaganda.

and when people and alternative sources report that the chaos in ukraine was started by right-wing extremists backed by NATO/EU/Western dictatorships, then it has nothing to do with russian propaganda, especially when the sources are not linked to russian TV channels.

and btw, i am not the only one who think like that.

[mistyronin 1181]

i look into sources which are not in the hands of a state and they are only to find in internet.

Yeah because all the private companies that you quoted are in the hands of a state... :j:

Anyway, why you felt identified with my previous post?

When you talk about people and alternative sources what do you mean? Because my Ukrainian friends, some of them I have known them for more than a dozen years, think the opposite ( and the majority of Ukrainian people voted Poroshenko ).

Also most of the Ukrainian sources point in the same direction, even Russian alternative media and some of their best journalists too ( like for instance Yuri Kozyrev ).

BTW What member of EU or NATO is a dictatorship? What do you mean by the West?

So from now on you can do like the rest of us, even the Russian users, and post your sources so we can judge ourselves.

[pooroldspike 128]

I pretty amazed of how many people do believe Russian propaganda...

Ah, but how can we know if something is a lie or not?

For example, I heard that the majority (60%) of the Crimean people were in favour of joining with mighty Russia, how can we know if 60% is true?

Crimea is therefore stable and peaceful because they've now joined Russia, and Ukraine will never dare attack mighty Russia's friend!

So if Donetsk and Luhansk also joined Russia, they'd get mighty Russia's protection too..:)

[mistyronin 1181]

Ah, but how can we know if something is a lie or not?

For example, I heard that the majority (60%) of the Crimean people were in favour of joining with mighty Russia, how can we know if 60% is true?

Using the scientific method and a bit of common sense.

For instance, if a poll like this:

Public Opinion Survey Residents of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea

That has been founded by the US, show that Russian speakers are a majority, and that the people want by a clear huge majority to support a Custom Union with Russia. That may ring a bell...

- - -

About Crimea being stable and peaceful, the UN observers and other Human Rights groups don't think the same:

( Reuters ) U.N. monitors warn on human rights in east Ukraine, Crimea

( Latin Post ) Ukraine, Russia & Crimea News 2014: Human Rights Violations Increasing in Ukraine, UN Report Says

( UN Website ) Security Council 7144th Meeting (PM)

( Human Rights Watch ) Crimea: Attacks, ‘Disappearances’ by Illegal Forces

( Huffington Post ) Crimea's Gay Community Fears For Life Under Russia

( Amnesty International ) Made in Russia: Crimea’s grim human rights predicament

Don’t expect Crimeans to engage in an informed public debate about this “made in Russia†repression which is already beginning to take hold in the peninsula.

They won’t be able to. In Russia, state control has been consolidated over a prominent news agency, critical news websites and blogs blocked and threatened with prosecution, the editor and director of an influential independent media outlet sacked, and a popular cable news channel taken off the air by several satellite providers.

The warning signs are clear. In Crimea, the crackdown is coming. But the repression won’t be televised.

Edited June 10, 2014 by MistyRonin

[pooroldspike 128]

Poor Old Spike said: For example, I heard that the majority (60%) of the Crimean people were in favour of joining with mighty Russia, how can we know if 60% is true?

Using the scientific method and a bit of common sense....

Hmm...my common sense tells me that if I was a citizen of Crimea, I'd be happy and secure knowing that Crimea is now officially part of Russia, and that no country will dare attack Crimea and incur Putin's terrible wrath..:)

At the moment, Donetsk and Luhansk HAVEN'T joined Russia, so Kiev is freely bombing the krap out of them.

[mistyronin 1181]

Hmm...my common sense tells me that if I was a citizen of Crimea

The part of the scientific method dissipated in thin air... Also the human right links. It's cool to separate the parts that you don't like.

For instance, in your fiction you could imagine that you are a Tatar citizen of Crimea, or a homosexual resident of Crimea, or a democrat resident of Crimea, etc... Your conclusion may not be the same...

Yeah, I know that is not as cool as in your perfect fiction...

BTW in Crimea the Ukrainian Army didn't do anything, and in the Eastern part only acted when certain insurgent groups started to use the weapons to assault buildings, murder and kidnap people, and a long etc. And is not bombing "the crap out them". You can link here all the very bad things the terrible Ukrainian Army is doing ( which BTW contains a lot of Russian speaking Ukrainians ).

Then you can explain us why the pro-Russian insurgents contain a huge amount of Russian & Kazakhs citizens... ( you can check this thread for all the proves )...

[vilas 474]

PoorOldSpike it is not that simple as you simplify it ,

those terrains were Russified (check wikipedia on "rusification") and local Tatars were exterminated or deportated by Stalin regime,

so you know, it is not that easy comparision that "family of mr. A live in this house and so they own this house" , cause previously "in this house lived mr A family, mr. B family, but mr A killed family of mr. B"

it is not that easy that "somewhere are Russians" cause during occupation either by Russian Empire (before 1917) or by USSR RUssians were moved to some places which were not Russian and local natives were eliminated or deported etc.

it is not that easy PoorOldSpike

[pooroldspike 128]

Guys, guys, like I said earlier in this sensational thread, the keyword to understanding this whole business is MAJORITY..:)

News reports say a 60% majority of Crimeans were in favour of joining with Russia, but other people say the vote was faked.

Likewise, how can we know what the majority of Donetsk and Luhansk citizens want?

We MUST have good reliable figures, but where can we get them from?

[surpher 1]

Guys, guys, like I said earlier in this sensational thread, the keyword to understanding this whole business is MAJORITY..:)

News reports say a 60% majority of Crimeans were in favour of joining with Russia, but other people say the vote was faked.

Likewise, how can we know what the majority of Donetsk and Luhansk citizens want?

We MUST have good reliable figures, but where can we get them from?

(Pew Research Global Attitudes Project) Despite Concerns about Governance, Ukrainians Want to Remain One Country

(NYTimes) For Western Oil Companies, Expanding in Russia Is a Dance Around Sanctions

Despite the push by Western governments to isolate Moscow for its aggression in Ukraine, energy giants are deepening their relationships with companies here by striking deals and plowing more money into the country.

(EuromaidanPR) The Western Choice of the Russian Government

It was noticed a while ago that the children of our patriotic governors live and study in the West. Parents send their children to live in the West, buy property there, send money there, and even have dual citizenship

Edited June 10, 2014 by surpher

[sgtsev3n 12]

the most funniest thing was, when Obama claimed 'Iraq invasion not as bad as Crimea'

hahahahaha sorry but:

- where was uranium ammunition used ? iraq or crimea ?

- where did over 1 million people died ? iraq or crimea ?

- where was phosphor bombs used ? iraq or crimea ?

[Tonci87 163]

the most funniest thing was, when Obama claimed 'Iraq invasion not as bad as Crimea'

hahahahaha sorry but:

- where was uranium ammunition used ? iraq or crimea ?

- where did over 1 million people died ? iraq or crimea ?

- where was phosphor bombs used ? iraq or crimea ?

In my opinion both are bad. Really bad.

[ProfTournesol 956]

sorry but i have to dissapoint you:

i am russian/kazakh and living in germany

Yeah, loving Russia but living in the West. Funny.

[sgtsev3n 12]

Yeah, loving Russia but living in the West. Funny.

whats the problem ? are you the opinion that all russians should move to russia ? and what is the problem with loving russia ? i love every country and its people, even the USA. i have no problem with any country and its people and before you come with "you are pro putin" blah blah: i never said that i love russian government and because i post facts about the ukrainian crisis does not mean im pro-putin ;)

it seems like you have not only a problem with russian government, but with all russians and its country itself.

[ProfTournesol 956]

whats the problem ? are you the opinion that all russians should move to russia ? and what is the problem with loving russia ? i love every country and its people, even the USA. i have no problem with any country and its people and before you come with "you are pro putin" blah blah: i never said that i love russian government and because i post facts about the ukrainian crisis does not mean im pro-putin ;)

it seems like you have not only a problem with russian government, but with all russians and its country itself.

The thing is that i read your posts, you should read them again (or try to write more moderated ones) : you're calling Western countries dictatorships, but live there. That's ironic.

and when people and alternative sources report that the chaos in ukraine was started by right-wing extremists backed by NATO/EU/Western dictatorships, then it has nothing to do with russian propaganda, especially when the sources are not linked to russian TV channels.

[sgtsev3n 12]

The thing is that i read your posts, you should read them again (or try to write more moderated ones) : you're calling Western countries dictatorships, but live there. That's ironic.

now what ? it is true that western countries are dictatorships, yet does it mean that russia, china etc are democratic ?

almost every country is a form of dictatorship. oh and btw, most americans living in america knows that the USA is a dictatorship like here in germany the germans know that germany is a dictatorship and even still under occupation and the germans here knows that USA and other countries are dictatorship. now what ? should they leave germany ? should americans leave theyr homeland because they know what theyr government are ?

Edited June 10, 2014 by sgtsev3n

[spooky lynx 73]

Yeah, loving Russia but living in the West. Funny.

Ukrs who think that ability to travel without visa to EU (and work there) equals to prosperity for Ukraine are much funnier. Thinking of EU as some wizard who will make Ukrainians live like Germans instantly is very funny.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Ukrs who think that ability to travel without visa to EU (and work there) equals to prosperity for Ukraine are much funnier. Thinking of EU as some wizard who will make Ukrainians live like Germans instantly is very funny.

I do agree with this. That's not that often :)

[spooky lynx 73]

I do agree with this. That's not that often :)

It would be funny but IRL dozens of people who were no agree with it were murdered or tortured. Starting with Ivan Protsenko, civil activist of "For clean city" movement who tried to negotiate peacefully with maidanuts but was beaten hardly, so were his supporters.

[ProfTournesol 956]

It would be funny but IRL dozens of people who were no agree with it were murdered or tortured. Starting with Ivan Protsenko, civil activist of "For clean city" movement who tried to negotiate peacefully with maidanuts but was beaten hardly, so were his supporters.

There are obviously morrons on each sides. I only hope the new Ukrainian leader will clean that mess.