Ukraine General

[Tonci87 163]

Oh boy..... FPDR

The thought that the people were simply fed up with that corrupt government doesn´t make sense to you?

[mistyronin 1181]

never believe anything what CNN, BBC etc say. they are 24h lying!

in ukraine there was a western backed fake "revolution" to destroy janukowitsch regime and change it with pro EU regime and now the new regime that has been installed there bombs theyr own people and our media is silent!

So all the world media lies ( from Middle East, from Australia, from India, from Japan, from Europe, from Africa, from South America, etc. ) but Russian Kremlin founded news tell the truth... :rolleyes:

Make sense...

[lesscubes 1]

At the risk of getting banned, I'm going to ask our resident Russians- How exactly do you manage to scream so loudly about the Ukrainian pro-govt. forces using excessive force when excessive force was always a hallmark of Russian military action?

I'm not excusing the Ukrainians, mind you.

[sgtsev3n 12]

i never told that russian news are telling the truth.

the only way to get a neutral view of what happening in ukraine is:

go there. or take a look at the footages, videos etc that was made in ukraine and uploaded in internet.

so, you believe that right wing want freedom in ukraine? it was right-wing extremists that started chaos in ukraine backed by NATO/EU !

same game as in libya and syria where NATO and GULF states send extremists and criminals in these countries to make chaos there and our media calls that a "revolution"

i dont want to go off topic, but libya, syria and ukraine has something related: in all 3 countries the NATO tries to overthrow the current governments (in libya and ukraine successful)

to replace them with governments who are EU/NATO friendly and follow theyr interests.

that is the truth and about syria:

dont try to tell me anything like "people are getting killed by government" , "syria is against assad" blablabla

because i have friends who lives in syria and they informed me about what is going on there and i visited one friend 2 times in latakia.

same game played in libya and ukraine!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZh1jWUuCWM

here your peaceful ukraine protesters:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Ol4QIRxS-AU/UxA8BSwWDoI/AAAAAAAAWt8/iTp1UCRHfyM/s1600/UkraineNaziAufmarsch.jpg

[vilas 473]

we do not say that mad religious fanatics who wanna make Shiria law are freedom defenders, do not make here Russian propaganda like non-Russia support Al Queda,

those rebels in Arab countries are religion freaks who want put Shiria law and kill everyone who doesn't shout "allah akbar", we do not call them good, cause those who are not blind, knows what happens in Europe:

+

< this is muslims presence in Europe, we know that this is problem , we do not support Al Queda,

but in case of Ukraine there was and still is largest corruption in European zone, mafia businesmen called manats/oligarchs rulling state which is not state but banana republic with tribal structure (but instead of tribes there are local businesmen)

Maidan was not action against Russia like Russian propaganda say, Maidan was against corruption, oligarchy etc.

all that happened after Maidan is result of Russian nationalism, imperialism by Putin government,

i am atheist i hate religious fanatics

------------------

about video shown by MistyRonin:

as i was saying before - this document shows what happens due to corruption, government officers stolen budget money which didn't reach buying supplies,

i remember histories from Poland from 80s/90s, that when Army get concrete to build buildings, than half of those concrete was stolen and sold for penny around (many local farmers use concrete for example to make plaza for garage) or army officers who build themselves houses from concrete and bricks which were bought to make for example new warehouse in Army Unit, after year Army Unit still haven't built warehouse, while number of bricks , concrete, steel poles delivered - allowed to make 3 such buildings,

at the fall of communism corruption was so high that such things were "something usual",

i remember it from childhood myself,

such things happen in corrupted countries,

[sgtsev3n 12]

"russian propaganda" lol, do you see any russian source in my post ? it has nothing to do with "russian propaganda"!

"we do not call them good" you not, but western media calls them good and calls them "freedom fighters"

"we do not support Al Queda" you not, but NATO and GULF states do!

[mistyronin 1181]

the only way to get a neutral view of what happening in ukraine is:

go there. or take a look at the footages, videos etc that was made in ukraine and uploaded in internet.

so, you believe that right wing want freedom in ukraine? it was right-wing extremists that started chaos in ukraine backed by NATO/EU !

That's what for example I have done, and in this thread you can see how I quoted lots of sources from different natures ( from ITAR-TASS, RT, RIA Novosti, to Vice News, Al Jazeera, India times, NY Times, Le Monde, Kyiv Post, El País, The Guardian, Ara, Yle, and a long etc. ). I also posted a lot of videos and streaming recorded by Ukrainian citizens with their cell phones. Feel free to check.

And all seem to indicate that the Right Wing are relatively little and with not much support, same with the Pro-Russian violent thugs. Most of people want to live in peace and don't want Russia intervention ( even a huge amount of Russian speaking Ukrainians ).

No clue about what extremists or criminals you talk that NATO or EU may have send anywhere there. BTW among my good friends I count some Ukrainians, so I know first hand some of the events there. In fact Maidan was supported mainly by democrats whose only weapons were their hands and shouts.

That Ukrainian politicians are corrupt, we all know, that exist right wing parties in Ukraine, of course they do. But the change was lead by normal people who despise both of those groups. BTW don't mix Syria and Libya ( BTW the intervention in this last one was approved by the Kremlin ), as have nothing much to do. The only point they share is that people raised against dictatorship ( Gaddafi, Al Assad ) and corruption ( Russian paid Yanukovich ) asking for a better and democratic future.

[vilas 473]

The only point they share is that people raised against dictatorship ( Gaddafi, Al Assad ) and corruption ( Russian paid Yanukovich ) asking for a better and democratic future.

not exactly , in Arab countries they raised to set Shiria law and have ability to cut throat of anyone who doesn't shout Allah Akbar

first thing they've done in Lybia or Egipt was for example destroying WW2 cemetery with crosses on graves of British or Polish or German soldiers there

they fight dictators that try to make state non-religious cause they want to bring back medival era again not multi-parties democracy with freedom of belief

Edited June 8, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

not exactly , in Arab countries they raised to set Shiria law and have ability to cut throat of anyone who doesn't shout Allah Akbar

I said the people that raised against the dictatorship.

Then taking advantage of the situation, extremist Islamic groups have been tring to get the control. That was specially exaggerated in Syria where you can find fights at three sights ( dictatorship vs democrats vs islamics ).

In the same way that Islamic groups have been done that when a country was weak, be it in Africa, Asia or Oceania.

Just look how ISI is taking the Iraq's democracy after the Coalition went away.

[sgtsev3n 12]

I said the people that raised against the dictatorship.

Then taking advantage of the situation, extremist Islamic groups have been tring to get the control. That was specially exaggerated in Syria where you can find fights at three sights ( dictatorship vs democrats vs islamics ).

In the same way that Islamic groups have been done that when a country was weak, be it in Africa, Asia or Oceania.

"dictatorship vs democrats" you made me laugh.

you never been in syria, so please, shut up.

[mistyronin 1181]

"dictatorship vs democrats" you made me laugh.

you never been in syria, so please, shut up.

I've never been in Syria true. But I know more than a few dozens Syrians ( like three of my wife's best friends husbands ). And they are from different parts of the country, so I have quite a nice pic.

BTW this thread is about Ukraine, just remembering.

Edited June 8, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Tonci87 163]

The new president of the Ukraine has announced a ceasefire. It will go in effect during this week (provided that the rebels agree).

This is outstanding news for the people living there.

[mistyronin 1181]

More on this:

( Voice of Russia ) Ceasefire must be ensured in eastern Ukraine coming week - Poroshenko

"We must ensure ceasefire this week," Poroshenko told the trilateral contact group for implementing the peace plan for eastern Ukraine in Kiev on Sunday.

"The situation where people die each day and Ukraine is paying such a high price, is unacceptable," the Ukrainian president said.

"Therefore, first, the work of the Ukrainian state border must be restored in order to guarantee security for all Ukrainian citizen living in Donbass, irrespective of their political preferences," Poroshenko said, Interfax reports.

The presidential press service told Interfax that the meeting was attended by Ukrainian Ambassador to Germany Pavel Klimkin, the OSCE secretary general's special envoy Heidi Tagliavini and Russian Ambassador to Ukraine Mikhail Zurabov. Poroshenko said that the parties must work to implement the agreements reached in Normandy in talks with German Chancellor Angela Merkel, French President Francois Hollande and Russian President Vladimir Putin.

The rebels answer ( all according to Voice of Russia ):

( Voice of Russia ) Donetsk Republic does not trust Poroshenko's pledge to stop fighting

"Exactly what Poroshenko meant by his statement on stopping the hostilities is a question to be addressed to Poroshenko. As for us, we continue the mobilization and the volunteers continue preparations for the defense of Donetsk,"

Edited June 8, 2014 by MistyRonin

[ProfTournesol 956]

"dictatorship vs democrats" you made me laugh.

you never been in syria, so please, shut up.

Typical dictatorship reaction : inability to accept someone else argument. By the way, we're trying to have a discussion between grown up people, so keep it civil.

[mistyronin 1181]

BTW the poor guy from the honor guard passed out just when Poroshenko was passing by ( at least he didn't cut him, that once in a parade the guy in front of me passed out and cut the one on his left ). Edited June 8, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Tonci87 163]

Who knows how long he had been standing already...

[vilas 473]

press: according to Ukrainian experts AN-30 which was shot down in Saturday was shot by 9K333 Vyerba system, which is newest Russian AA manpads that just enetered few units, but according to Ukrainian experts separatists had this system,

Edited June 9, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

press: according to Ukrainian experts AN-30 which was shot down in Saturday was shot by 9K333 Vyerba system, which is newest Russian AA manpads that just enetered few units, but according to Ukrainian experts separatists had this system,

Vilas, didn't you know that now in Ukraine modern AA systems are now sold in the supermarkets??? There is even an offer in Slaviansk that with each BTR they give you a few AA for free...

[vilas 473]

another from press: there are evidences that Russian citizens took part in battles, there is known death of FSB agent Sergey Zhdanovychn from Moscow on airport of Donetsk

also i found websites from Ukraine reporting that from Russian territory BTR and 6 trucks tried to enter Ukrainian territory but they failed (green man again)

Russian Federation acts like on war, i wonder how it looks to international law, that one country allow to cross border to other country of armed men and trucks with arms

Edited June 9, 2014 by vilas

[surpher 1]

(Al Jazeera) Opinion - How is the Ukraine crisis affecting Central Asia?

Russia's annexation of the Crimean Peninsula, by contrast, fuelled quite an outrage across the world. It also provoked growing uneasiness over the Kremlin's geopolitical ambitions in the former Soviet republics, sending shock waves throughout the Eurasian region, where President Vladimir Putin's seeming grand plan to create an exclusive "sphere of influence" for Russia has come under the spotlight once again.

(Human Rights Watch) Letter to Acting President Turchynov and President-Elect Poroshenko

I am writing to raise issues relating to the conduct of military operations in southeastern Ukraine in light of the growing number of credible reports regarding Ukrainian forces’ use of mortars and other weapons in and around populated areas, and the recent intensifying of hostilities between Ukrainian forces and armed insurgent groups‎. While we have not been in a position to investigate the most recent hostilities or many of the incidents reported in the press in the past week, our researchers did investigate two apparent mortar attacks in residential areas while on a field mission in Donetsk region between May 19 and May 26.

(The Guardian) New East network

Edited June 9, 2014 by surpher

[sudayev 27]

Surprised seeing that qualitative big leap forward of russian special forces that took Crimea? Well, thanks to Germany.

I advise reading that.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/22/germany-helped-prep-russia-for-war-u-s-sources-say.html

Russian army and GRU Spetznaz upgrade their gear. Reports show that the Russian military units both inside Ukraine and amassed on its eastern border are sporting brand new communications equipment, body armor, personal weapons, and ammunition. Taken together, it gives them a huge tactical advantage over the beleaguered Ukrainian armed forces.

German corporation Rheinmetall makes hundred millions of dollars by selling Nato technology & all military know how of the West.

Almost like in the old days of Stalin and Hitler.

[pooroldspike 128]

I've only just seen this thread, it was started 4 months ago and has run to over 300 posts, so can somebody give us an update on the current situation in Ukraine?

Tell me if I've got this right?-

1- The MAJORITY of people in West Ukraine (including the city of Kiev) don't like Putin, and they want to form links with Europe.

2- The MAJORITY of people in East Ukraine (east of the Dniepr river), like Putin and they want to form links with Russia.

Is there a map somewhere on the net showing exactly which areas are for or against Putin, and how many people are in those areas?

[mistyronin 1181]

can somebody give us an update on the current situation in Ukraine?

Ukraine has mainly two ethnicities defined by the language ( Ukrainian and Russian ). In the half South-East of the country they are mainly Russian speakers. In this map you can see the Russian speaking areas.

That as you can see, it translates to the votes too.

After the escape of the former president Yanukovich, the provisional government in Kiev declared that Ukrainian would be the only official language in Ukraine. That ignited a violent insurrection at the two far east border regions ( the ones you can see in the map on the right with more than 50% of Russian speakers ): Donetsk and Luhansk.

While in Luhansk the population has barely followed that insurrection and it has only a few activity in the region's capital. In Donetsk it spread out to a lot of towns ( you can see them marked in the map above ). And the Ukrainian Army is trying to regain control of the area. But are being stopped by the insurgents that had received training from former Ukrainian Spec. Forces and some say also Russian. Not only that. They also seem to have all kinds of powerful weapons like AA missiles ( not only simple RPGs, but the modern systems too ), artillery, armored vehicles, etc.

Said that technically there the population in general are not for Putin, but seek recognition for the Russian culture and language. Although a few fools among the leaders of the insurgents have asked to join Russia. But there have been clashes inside the insurgents factions, so it's not even clear who wants what.

BTW I guess you know already, but the Crimea peninsula was invaded by the Russian Army, who forced a fake referendum that has not been recognized by almost any country in the world ( in fact was condemned by a majority of the countries of the UN council ).

The recently elected president Poroshenko by a majority of Ukrainian people has promised to make all needed steps to sign agreements with the EU and try to join it ( the negative of former president Yanukovich to sign that agreement against the population wish, sparkled the protests in Maidan ).

Edited June 9, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Tonci87 163]

Surprised seeing that qualitative big leap forward of russian special forces that took Crimea? Well, thanks to Germany.

I advise reading that.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/22/germany-helped-prep-russia-for-war-u-s-sources-say.html

German corporation Rheinmetall makes hundred millions of dollars by selling Nato technology & all military know how of the West.

Almost like in the old days of Stalin and Hitler.

Thwere can´t be a war without german weapons.

[vilas 473]

i know similar articles, yes, few west EU countries made Russian army big step into hightech, and yes, softness of some westEU politicians is caused by business and profits, no matter that some of other EU memebers might be in danger because of it

---------- Post added at 17:03 ---------- Previous post was at 16:58 ----------

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/rosja-zareaguje-w-razie-zwiekszania-obecnosci-nato-u-jej-granic/qy4j4

manwhile in Russia " vice Min of foreign affairs of Russia said that if other countries will join NATO Russia will act military to secure Russian safety"

as i said before - they are obsessed, when Poland (small country ) wanted anti-rocket defence system, Russia done all to disarm Poland, they said even here that it is threat and attack on Russia if Poland wants... safety system

so Russia once again deprives other countries and other nations right to self-decide , Russia is imperialistic country that wants to dictate neigbors what they can do, what union they can join etc.

if Ukraine will try to join EU or NATO they will start WW3 ?

Edited June 9, 2014 by vilas