Disappointed after 13 years of 'Arma'

[shot 0]

Hello everyone,

I just have to speak out loud what I was thinking yesterday... I was playing the 2nd campaign of Arma 3 - I'll not spoiler anything - just let me say it's the one where you can run into a fully functional repair truck (yeah). When trying to sit some of my squad members into the truck and then have them drive somewhere to a half-destroyed vehicle (for repair!) I really couldn't believe what I saw:

- The AI driver didn't move at all.

- After turning around the truck by myself (and re-fitting the AI into it again) it finally moved on...

- Over stones and stuff until one wheel went missing already

- A few hundred meters later it hit a tree (still no total loss, AI still kept inside the vehicle trying to drive over (or through)) the tree?

- It kept doing this until I saved the truck by removing the AI again.

This is just one example what I'm constantly observing during my gameplay. The KI doesn't work at all. After playing Operation Flashpoint and all other titles since the first release I'm really upset now. It seems that some things did not change at all within a period of more than 10 years. Of course other things were improved and fixed and graphics are 10000 times nicer now. But what for? I'm spending 30% of my Campaign time working around bugs with my AI team members. For example 3,4 and 8 were stuck somewhere 250 meters away from me. With no command in this world I was able to got them up and running again - this is also something which annoyed me and all my friends since the first part of Operation Flashpoint.

What happens to these AI members? Return to formation, move somewhere, heal yourself, sit down, etc. bla bla. NOTHING helps - so you can just leave them somewhere on a field and let them die there - just to continue with 5 instead of 8 people in your group.... but anyhow also the other 4 team members can basically not be used to drive a truck! So now I'm asking myself what Arma 3 Campaign is for? If the AI is still not usable then why doesn't Arma 3 at least support COOP campaign play? I really want to replace all these uncapable AI's with my friends... maybe I'd then start playing the game again.

I'm afraid this was the last part of the Arma series for me - I really lost hope that these 10+ year old bugs may be fixed once :(

Regards,

Michael

[sgtsev3n 12]

i can feel your pain but the AI bugs will never be fixed.

they was not fixed in arma and arma 2, they are not fixed in arma 3 so there is no reason to believe that the AI will be fixed in future release of arma

[.kju 3245]

would be an easy fix.. CIT #16120: Cars/trucks not sticking to roads in combat mode

AI just would need driving routines from careless/safe also used in other behaviors modes.

but for whatever reasons BI doesn't like it :(

[DancZer 65]

I would be surprised if some day the AI would behaves more like a human in this game.

[Polygon 11]

Well, A3 still has most versatile and impressive AI in games industry to date. Can't deny that.

[shot 0]

I'm not talking about human-like behavior... just totally insane behavior like plumming into a tree over and over again - or (even worse) team members who are just stuck and non responsive; this was a LOT worse in Operation Flashpoint. I cannot remember how often I heard the "Cannot do that" when I tried to board AI guys into a truck in Operation Flashpoint... but again - this is 13 years later. I can board the truck now... but then they only wreck it.

And for myself also being a programmer watching these AI guys just not reacting to any command anymore clearly looks like a total screwup in the coding. A MOVE TO command should bring them out of any screwed up state and then GO to the defined point; no matter if the guy is hurt, out of ammo or whatever!

[Bouben 3]

What is worrying me is that I had no stuck AI soldiers in OFP nor Arma 2. Never. They have been doing a lot of stupid things but never got stuck. Now in Arma 3 they get stuck regularly (most recently yesterday, in a building with vanilla AI).

Also, ECP mod for OFP made the driving AI completely problem-free. It was absolutely reliable, predictable. Don't know why is it not possible in Arma series.

[Gudsawn 93]

I'm surprised you're basing your "disappointment" of the entire game around the campaign alone. Get yourself on some proper MP servers (the ones where people actually work together) and then tell me how much you're disappointed with the game. I could play for hours on ALiVE Insurgency - giving orders to the A-10 for CAS, commanding squads, capturing towns, killing Takis, outflanking the enemies, defusing IEDs.

I've never really had an interest in the campaign, even in Arma 3. It's like buying a cheeseburger and then only eating the cheese. MP is where the fun is at, at least for me.

[krycek 349]

Throughout the time I've been very disappointed with the AI driving and while it's not exactly good in A3 I can say it was improved compared with the alpha.I could actually have a convoy without stopping every 30m or hitting something.For Arma series this is a damn breakthrough.:p

Haven't tested their behaviour on rocks but some time ago a dev told that AI drivers could reverse now,you mean they still get stuck on those damn rocks?

If you want to see something broken that it's still from OFP era look at the AI pilots where they still fly their gunships exactly over the enemy positions when attacking.All this time they couldn't even implement a simple hover command(not the one we have as players) when engaging.

Right now they're like:"3 tanks and 2 ifvs??well I'll be damned I'll just fly straight over their heads and salute them":biggrin:

[Bouben 3]

I'm surprised you're basing your "disappointment" of the entire game around the campaign alone. Get yourself on some proper MP servers (the ones where people actually work together) and then tell me how much you're disappointed with the game. I could play for hours on ALiVE Insurgency - giving orders to the A-10 for CAS, commanding squads, capturing towns, killing Takis, outflanking the enemies, defusing IEDs.

I've never really had an interest in the campaign, even in Arma 3. It's like buying a cheeseburger and then only eating the cheese. MP is where the fun is at, at least for me.

It is not just about the campaign itself. Those problems mentioned are all around Arma gameplay when it comes to AI. And there is many players that don't enjoy MP for various reasons so there is no point in suggesting them to play MP. If the game has SP, then it should be fully functional.

---------- Post added at 15:21 ---------- Previous post was at 15:15 ----------

Haven't tested their behaviour on rocks but some time ago a dev told that AI drivers could reverse now,you mean they still get stuck on those damn rocks?

The reversing is broken. They sometimes can't figure out what to do when they crash. Often they either reverse not enough to unstuck themselves or they don't reverse at all. Also, they often do not change their direction after reversing which leads to constant repetitive crashing in one place.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Bouben

[bad benson 1733]

;2625287']would be an easy fix.. CIT #16120: Cars/trucks not sticking to roads in combat mode

AI just would need driving routines from careless/safe also used in other behaviors modes.

but for whatever reasons BI doesn't like it :(

let's be honest though. they struggle with roads too.

[antoineflemming 14]

Well, A3 still has most versatile and impressive AI in games industry to date. Can't deny that.

I disagree. Maybe for large scale movement, pin point accuracy, coordination with other AI, but they don't act as human as AI in other games. In other games, AI will shoot from behind cover, avoid grenades and vehicles, etc. With improvements, AI in this game can truly be the best, but right now there are things keeping them from being so. And I too doubt that we will ever see any improvements to make them more human-like, and not just efficient robots, because right now that's what they are.

[Opticalsnare 12]

Well, A3 still has most versatile and impressive AI in games industry to date. Can't deny that.

Dunno about that

[Grumpy Old Man 3546]

coordination with other AI

How so?

[cpl_hicks 2]

This is not a very constructive thread, this game is too massive and ambitious to get it all working as it should and there is no other game/sim that has anywhere near the same size and multiple object/scenario/editing power as the 2 above posts try to refer to but failed to provide an example of.

I know this because if there was one that even came close I would be all over it. All I can say is if Star Citizen delivers even close to its claims then byebye arma =P

Arma 2 took years to where I thought it was near perfect and A3 will likely be the same...

[seba1976 98]

I understand how difficult it is to have functional AI, what I've never ever understood, is why BIS designs their missions, to somehow just expose every weakness their AI have. It's like that since the OFP days, I think I just got into scripting and mission design just to produce my own game, in which I don't ask the AI folks to do all the things that they are bad at. I mean, it seems BIS just wants to show you how silly those poor fellas can act. Almost as if they don't give a damn about the flaws of the AI. The mission the OP mentioned is one example of that. I think after a few years every mission designer knows what things not to do, when dealing with the AI. Apparently the guys at BIS don't know that either (or don't care).

[fabio_chavez 103]

I'm surprised you're basing your "disappointment" of the entire game around the campaign alone. Get yourself on some proper MP servers (the ones where people actually work together) and then tell me how much you're disappointed with the game. I could play for hours on ALiVE Insurgency - giving orders to the A-10 for CAS, commanding squads, capturing towns, killing Takis, outflanking the enemies, defusing IEDs.

I've never really had an interest in the campaign, even in Arma 3. It's like buying a cheeseburger and then only eating the cheese. MP is where the fun is at, at least for me.

(non organized) conventional pvp MP is close to nonexistent, it just not so obviously a problem anymore because the targetgroup allready left the game for good.

Random Generic missions with civilian AI sitting in front of cash registers are no substitute imho :(

Only ray of light atm is TacBF imho, but that is actually not representative for A3 MP generally, its more like, TacBF exists DESPITE A3 MP

so if you say, you are going to be less disappointed if you focus on MP, id say no, unless you are really into altis life 24/7 or coop, MP is a joke. :/

[artisanal 22]

Well, A3 still has most versatile and impressive AI in games industry to date. Can't deny that.

Even if this might be true, I'm willing to ask : at what cost ?

[bad benson 1733]

versatile =/= good/effective

[artisanal 22]

Yep, it's exactly that. But as I see the situation, AI isn't the main problem (performance wise). There still are remarkably curious and disturbing issues such as the (un)famous destroyed building "bug"...

[smallhill 0]

I really love this series, but watching AI driving makes me sometimes want to pull my hair out. My favourite thing to do in this game is making big AI vs AI battles in the editor, just watching the action enfold is where the fun is for me. AI stupidity is evenly distributed to both sides, so I'm okay with that.

On the other hand commanding AI is just too frustrating for me, that's why I'm not even considering touching the campaign or any other "command-type"-missions. Which is may be a bit of shame, but AI ineptness totally kills any immersion for me when commanding.

Edited February 18, 2014 by smallhill
typo

[odyseus 19]

AI is not the only reason ARMA3 is disappointing. I have a long list of reason why ARMA3 is not even close to what they have promised. But as far as AI goes I guess that BIS "solution" to this problem is the new DLC "ZEUS". Back in ARAM2 the community have try countless ways to improve the silly AI behavior with all kinds of scripts, some added functions that allowed player to be stealthy, other added the suppression factor on to AI, and many other that i can quite remember. I really do not think BIS is listening to the community.

I remember when the gameplay was released by BIS and it showed a mission where a diver had to infiltrate an enemy base and plant explosives on a boat. The dynamic of the mission is not on the root of the game and it can only be achieve if you know the basics on scripting.

Althought AI is a big part of the reason why people are getting so frustrated, there are other things that would improve the game play as far is MP goes if was introduced in to the engine.

In my opinion the first would be LOGISTICS, it is probably my main problem with the game. Being able to load things container in vehicles, vehicles in vehicles and etc... to be carried into battle. A very important part of the battle is logistic. Being able to carry gun crates from on side to the other should be in the root of this game.

Shooting from moving vehicles. Although this game has physics it seems impossible to shoot from moving vehicles. This would improve game play a whole lot.

Large vehicles like ships, large vehicles like ships would bring game play to a whole other level, and would give us purpose to actually play as a diver on MP.

Animation... another thing that arma series lacks off. From animation to get in and out of vehicles where doors will open to animation of you falling from a median height. I got say, TOH was better polished than any other game done by BIS.

You see i do give credit where credit is due. :D

Anyways i guess we can only wait, and write on the forums.

[cpl_hicks 2]

I understand how difficult it is to have functional AI, what I've never ever understood, is why BIS designs their missions, to somehow just expose every weakness their AI have. It's like that since the OFP days, I think I just got into scripting and mission design just to produce my own game, in which I don't ask the AI folks to do all the things that they are bad at. I mean, it seems BIS just wants to show you how silly those poor fellas can act. Almost as if they don't give a damn about the flaws of the AI. The mission the OP mentioned is one example of that. I think after a few years every mission designer knows what things not to do, when dealing with the AI. Apparently the guys at BIS don't know that either (or don't care).

Again, what game does it better considering this scale and variety?

It will take time to bring to arma2 level.

The real fun is in multiplayer and good devs can work around this, why player inferior sp and campaign anyway?

[MissionCreep 12]

Pardon my ignorance, but can you name another FPS/tactical game on the scale of Arma with superior AI? The AI is far from perfect, but I think in most cases, its pretty much improved over the years.

Edited February 18, 2014 by MissionCreep

[shot 0]

The question is not about which game is better. Furthermore I'd ask why the producers do not once and for all get rid of these year old bugs and fix them. Especially if they got such a good programming team it should even be easier for them than for other game studios. Fixing an AI which is constantly driving against a tree is really something which can be fixed. But as someone else said they focus in stuff which is not important... another example would be (and the reason why I didn't pre-order DayZ): They improve small things and add content etc. for DayZ but then I still read (one year after the standalone game was started) that Zombies are still jumping through walls! This is a no-go... no one should ever pay money for something like this... and yes it is ALPHA... but who thinks this is gonna be fixed in the final version? This is an issue since 2001 (OFP!).

Playing PvP only is not a solution - I do not have 16 friends who play this game (because of above reasons maybe) - but what I could do in A1 and A2 were small coop missions where we started with 4 Players having a 12 team group with coop-group-respawn enabled. Quite enjoyable such missions... if not all your spare team members would consistently kill themselves by doing NOT what you tell them. From my point of view this behavior even got worse in A3 compared to A1 and A2.

Cheers,

Michael