Soldier protection (dev branch)

[dnk 13]

Yeah, let's break out a sledgehammer and a guy in mocap suit. That will be fun for everyone :)

[five_seven5-7 56]

Nobody talks about the flinch? Principally when soldiers are in prone position, they react awkwardly due to the protection.

[scarecrow398 43]

If you have read Mark Donaldson, VC's book yet Scarecrow he talks about being shot in the leg. It basically cemented itself between the femoral nerve and arteries (deep femoral, femoral) and he was that angry at being shot he just walked it off. The medic arrived later in the firefight and it was temporarily stitched and he carried on the firefight... until eventually being evacuated out hours later to get it checked up... It's very interpersonal and that is hard to replicate.

Indeed I just finished reading it a week or so ago, having multiple rounds pass through your pants but not your leg would be an experience and a half.

Anyway, specifically for those that haven't read it:

The force of the bullet that hit me (In the upper thigh) spun me around on the spot...

...I'd never been hit before, so this was a new experience. My thigh wasn't too badly hurt, but the emotions rose up, the red mist.

...My leg had a dull pain throughout, with pins and needles, but once I settled down I thought it couldn't have been too bad because I could still move about.

Our patrol medic came up and told me to roll over. Bruce (Patrol Commander) looked and said it was just a hole, no problem.

'I'm fine', I said 'Let me do my job,' the medic replied

The round is still there now, about two centimeters long, and sits between my sciatic nerve and hamstring near the femur

~Chapter 30, The Crossroad, Mark Donaldson

One lucky bastard.

He later says about falling over a few times during the patrol and shrugging it off as not being too bad but later suppressing the pain from his leg stiffening up, not wanting to show the other's of the pain though keep in mind, this is a SASR trooper who was on his 3rd or 4th tour in Afghanistan and would probably have a higher pain tolerance and be a bit more drive than most regular soldiers.

They have done something similar for units though, for example in ACE2 didn't some units like Special Forces have better fatigue systems and so on?

Yeah, not a very complex one, more of Civ's can carry 30kg, Regular's can carry 40kg, SF can carry 50kg though I see your point.

currently, there's already a hit effect where the soldier recoils from a hit, but it's rather cartoony. it needs to last slightly longer and be a mo capped animation, preferably. because hitting a guy dead center, seeing him tip his rifle in the air for .0005 seconds, then without a single beat having past, nails me from 100 meters away just destroys any sense of immersion the game tries to build.

Yeah, animations for getting hit rather than just aiming up in the air would be nice, though implementation might be a little tricky, no sense having an animation of the character knocking his shoulder back when it's been hit in the leg. VBS (seemingly) has a nice system where AI limp from injuries and such.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

BIS, would it be possible, to add a chance of getting knocked unconcious when shot by 6.5 or larger on impact with a players helmet? For example, one out of say... 7 or 9 people who survive a headshot (10-20% chance) while wearing a helmet, instantly get knocked into the unconcious animation that we only see when someone gets run over, but doesn't die. This would be interesting.

[L3TUC3 32]

Third, regardless of any arguments posted in any of these threads over the effectiveness of body armor no one can dispute that a 10 meter shot, to an unarmored person, center mass, with an assault rifle will put them down. However In arma a 5.56 point blank to a bare chest doesnt kill.

That's where you're wrong. Currently unarmored uniformed NATO/AAF/CIV will die to anything point blank to the chest. The CSAT fatigues count as armor and they will survive 5.56 point blank, but will die in their underwear.

BIS, would it be possible, to add a chance of getting knocked unconcious when shot by 6.5 or larger on impact with a players helmet? For example, one out of say... 7 or 9 people who survive a headshot (10-20% chance) while wearing a helmet, instantly get knocked into the unconcious animation that we only see when someone gets run over, but doesn't die. This would be interesting.

Seeing how BIS took out all the mechanics that restrict or remove player control, I doubt they'll introduce one like that. Who knows though.

Edited January 3, 2014 by L3TUC3

[dissaifer 10]

I think it is funny that no one mentions that bullets (from small arms) are not really designed to kill people they are designed to maim them.

If you don't believe me think about it. The enemy shoots one of your men, at least one man attempts to take care of him - removing him from the battle. That is now 2 combatants removed - if there is a call to comms and the leader dealing with it - it could be up to 4. Then if they are attempting an airlift we are talking about a helicopter team, etc.

Once the solider is hurt, people have to take care of him, if he can't fight he goes home - it is all about burning resources - a modern war is always about attrition. Either the populace's will or actual goods and services. So, I don't see why it would take a few shots for someone to actually be killed, based on range, force, protection, etc. Hell, even in real life people get shot in the face and don't die.

[tinemem 11]

actually, you're wrong. bullets are designed to kill, maiming is a secondary side effect. there are weapons where the emphasis is placed on maiming, like grenades and mines, but they should still be considered lethal as they can still cause death.

and the game doesn't simulate wounded soldiers being carted off so your entire argument is moot.

[progamer 14]

That's where you're wrong. Currently unarmored uniformed NATO/AAF/CIV will die to anything point blank to the chest. The CSAT fatigues count as armor and they will survive 5.56 point blank, but will die in their underwear.

Seeing how BIS took out all the mechanics that restrict or remove player control, I doubt they'll introduce one like that. Who knows though.

Even the ones they shouldn't have... It does not restrict player control. You make a choice knowing that can happen, it doesn't just happen randomly.

---------- Post added at 07:24 ---------- Previous post was at 07:23 ----------

actually, you're wrong. bullets are designed to kill, maiming is a secondary side effect. there are weapons where the emphasis is placed on maiming, like grenades and mines, but they should still be considered lethal as they can still cause death.

and the game doesn't simulate wounded soldiers being carted off so your entire argument is moot.

Why doesn't it?

[Yashamalu 10]

My personal experience in "Hardcore" Wasteland, you shoot someone wearing only a T-shirt with non-silencer MXM 50ms twice and hes still running.

[progamer 14]

That's where you're wrong. Currently unarmored uniformed NATO/AAF/CIV will die to anything point blank to the chest. The CSAT fatigues count as armor and they will survive 5.56 point blank, but will die in their underwear

If were overhauling body Armor why don't we just drop the unrealistic full body armor and give them proper realistic vests instead?

[rye1 21]

I think it is funny that no one mentions that bullets (from small arms) are not really designed to kill people they are designed to maim them.

If you don't believe me think about it. The enemy shoots one of your men, at least one man attempts to take care of him - removing him from the battle. That is now 2 combatants removed - if there is a call to comms and the leader dealing with it - it could be up to 4. Then if they are attempting an airlift we are talking about a helicopter team, etc.

Once the solider is hurt, people have to take care of him, if he can't fight he goes home - it is all about burning resources - a modern war is always about attrition. Either the populace's will or actual goods and services. So, I don't see why it would take a few shots for someone to actually be killed, based on range, force, protection, etc. Hell, even in real life people get shot in the face and don't die.

Wound ballistics has progressively adapted this theory though in a total war I think you could be correct. None the less bullets we can see now are being designed to kill and incapacitation, an example being the MK262 which designed for its marksman-sniper usage is designed to kill. Latest TCCC guidelines suggest you do not have to take care of him - that is that if the casualty is unresponsive then you continue the fight, not wasting resources or putting more people in danger. You have some good points but does it pertain to ArmA or is it really limited? It still doesn't answer the twitching enemy problem, the body armor performance, hit detection issues and so on. But good points.

[becubed 24]

My personal experience in "Hardcore" Wasteland, you shoot someone wearing only a T-shirt with non-silencer MXM 50ms twice and hes still running.

I believe that Wasteland meddles with the damage, try it in vanilla.

[scarecrow398 43]

If were overhauling body Armor why don't we just drop the unrealistic full body armor and give them proper realistic vests instead?

Because Iran is too poor to afford plate carriers, they can only afford full head to toe kevlar, heads up displays and Russian equipment that the Russian's don't even have yet.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Scarecrow398

[scrim 1]

Because Iran is too poor to afford plate carriers, they can only afford full head to toe kevlar, heads up displays and Russian equipment that the Russian's don't even have yet.

QFT, so much.

[tinemem 11]

yeah it's pretty hilarious they only wear load bearing vests yet can deflect 2-3 rounds center mass

[instagoat 133]

Power of liquid, non-newtonian fluid based bodyarmor. Quite possibly not kevlar.

[L3TUC3 32]

If were overhauling body Armor why don't we just drop the unrealistic full body armor and give them proper realistic vests instead?

What I'd like to see. I'm just saying how it acts now. We'll just have to live with it until and if it gets changed.

Even the ones they shouldn't have... It does not restrict player control. You make a choice knowing that can happen, it doesn't just happen randomly.

You make no sense. Explain.

[bravo409 13]

How about this, enough talk about what a vest can do and make a script on how to make it nice for all people to enjoy. Because lets be honest here we all hate the new damage value BIS added so lets fix it. Example patrol ops 3.0 has made this possible however someone that knows scripting needs to take it out where they can make it a mod only for that purpose savvy. So lets use all this talk and combined this to a new damage mod and make arma realistic. Because I don't know about you but I'm tired of the AI taking head shots and not dieing,or taking 3 shots to mid section and getting up just to kill you.

[kklownboy 43]

been playing P-ops with adjustments, and taking down AI with a 7.62 ,one shot to the head. Three shots in the chest is a kill.

[progamer 14]

How about this, enough talk about what a vest can do and make a script on how to make it nice for all people to enjoy. Because lets be honest here we all hate the new damage value BIS added so lets fix it. Example patrol ops 3.0 has made this possible however someone that knows scripting needs to take it out where they can make it a mod only for that purpose savvy. So lets use all this talk and combined this to a new damage mod and make arma realistic. Because I don't know about you but I'm tired of the AI taking head shots and not dieing,or taking 3 shots to mid section and getting up just to kill you.

Apparently damage is based on difficulty level. This needs to change into one realistic damage level. The ballistics model breaks down at range and produces bullets that should kill but don't due to an automatic damage reduction. (I'm not saying bullets shouldn't loose speed or power but instead the damage aspect needs to be changed)

Opfor needs proper ballistic vests (so hit location matters and they are affected realistically by bullets) and body armor needs to work realistically and only if the actual plate is hit.

Edited January 4, 2014 by ProGamer

[scarecrow398 43]

How about this, enough talk about what a vest can do and make a script on how to make it nice for all people to enjoy. Because lets be honest here we all hate the new damage value BIS added so lets fix it. Example patrol ops 3.0 has made this possible however someone that knows scripting needs to take it out where they can make it a mod only for that purpose savvy. So lets use all this talk and combined this to a new damage mod and make arma realistic. Because I don't know about you but I'm tired of the AI taking head shots and not dieing,or taking 3 shots to mid section and getting up just to kill you.

uhhh, okay then, AI take 1-2 rounds for me...

Anyway, he's probably running an AI only damage modifier in the mission, not really something you want to be doing for the next 6+ months.

[maturin 12]

Yeah, Like this plate which was only hit by 7.62mm rounds: http://www.bluesheepdog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/AK-plate-backface.jpg

Which can leave injurys like this behind: http://www.policemag.com/_Images/articles/PO1101FREEWAY-2-2.jpg

That vest has been absolutely tortured, though. It's come very close to failing. If you look at videos for lightweight ceramic armor on the civilian market, rifle plates consistently take multiple hits from 7.62 with negligible deformation. And when deformation happens, the entire plate is often bent on an axis, or turning slightly conical, which is the best-case scenario for backplate injuries because of surface area.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=body+armor+italy&sm=3

Videos like these simply end the energy transfer conversation entirely (you can find more with FALs and Magnums). When the vest is good enough, when it works properly, nothing at all happens. (Those are big ifs, of course. In practice, a lot of people will be injured while wearing the armor that saves their life.) The velocity, the momentum, the kinetic energy, whatever scientifically dubious label people come up with, it can all be completely negated by current technology. This guy is not running off adrenaline. He's at work.

Armor technology is currently ahead of bullet technology, in terms of can be easily produced and fielded. But even 100% reliable level IIII protection is useless when the round hits you in the throat or shoulder or any of the other places where you will never be able to wear armor, at least not if you want to be able to run anywhere.

Edited January 6, 2014 by maturin

[instagoat 133]

The disadvantage of armor is how dependent it is on being faced straight into the threat (One argument people make for that exagerrated thumb over bore hold with shoulders perpendicular to the rifle. I guess that's the reason why it is called "Rifle Isosceles") and that it weighs a ton. A single large plate weighs in at between 2 and 4 kilograms. So, front, back and sides you weigh in at 6~ Kilograms just for the plates, not counting soft armor and the plate carrier itself. Another disadvantage is coverage. More coverage incurs a mobility disadvantage, not only because of the weight, but because the vest physically inhibits your movement. Running, turning, stopping, getting up or down all gets slowed because you have things snagging and dragging, bunching or physically blocking your movement.

Which would be simulated properly, if we would finally get proper "plates" as physical surfaces inside the vests in the game. Protection would be absolutely realistic: you either hit the plate, or you don't hit it. No math, just the standard modifiers for RVMAT penetration.

Edit: re energy transfer. When the plate is hit straight, the shock (ie, energy) is dissipated from the impact site throughout the entire plate and in the optimal case results in no backface deformation and just a flat punch against your chest. Getting hit by a ceramic plate 12 inches across the face with the same energy as a bullet 6mm across the face results in -vastly- lower force per area unit. Even a large 7.62 bullet, if stopped, will have neglible force on such a large area. The only way you even receive damage behind an armor plate is if the shock does not dissipate across the entire back face, but is strong enough to cause a point deformation in the plate (resulting in the energy being sent through that point, rather than spreading throughout the plate.)

Summa summarum: If it does not penetrate, maybe cause some sort of impact animation, but do not injure at all. Easy. If it penetrates, damage accordingly. Causing fractional damage on unpenetrated plates makes no sense. Plate life may be a concern, but not immediately. I'd be happy if they just existed and were invulnerable, compared to the poor system we have right now to simulate bodyarmor.

http://www.bulletproofme.com/RP-Level-4-Stand-Alone.html <- Video of testing, too.

Edited January 6, 2014 by InstaGoat

[bravo409 13]

If you have downloaded Bcombat 0.14 this will be exciting for you I got this code to work for head shots.....config.sqf:

Line 221: bcombat_damage_factor = 2.0; // Damage multiplier to correct unrealistic body armor values

lib/common.sqf:

Line 391: _body_part_damage = _body_part_damage * bcombat_damage_factor;

I have great news I got this to work some what....I'm now getting instant kill with head shots....I changed 2.0 to 0.60 ....Line 221: bcombat_damage_factor = 0.60; // Damage multiplier to correct unrealistic body armor values....but with body shots still takes 3 shots kinda strange.

Edited January 6, 2014 by bravo409

[scarecrow398 43]

That vest has been absolutely tortured, though. It's come very close to failing. If you look at videos for lightweight ceramic armor on the civilian market, rifle plates consistently take multiple hits from 7.62 with negligible deformation. And when deformation happens, the entire plate is often bent on an axis, or turning slightly conical, which is the best-case scenario for backplate injuries because of surface area.

Both of those photos I posted are unrelated, They were simply the first images I could find to show what was possible, not what will always happen.