Damage system sucks - fix needed

[dnk 13]

UPDATED

Here are the rough damage ranges for each weapon at close range. Generally, a second head shot always kills, as does a 4th or 5th chest shot. It seems scripted in that way, since even the 9mm can kill in 6 shots.

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD]Weapon

[/TD]

[TD]Helmet Head[/TD]

[TD]Plate Carrier

[/TD]

[TD]Tac Vest[/TD]

[TD]Unarmored Chest[/TD]

[TD]Arm[/TD]

[TD]Leg[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]7.62 ABR[/TD]

[TD]17/45/100% (2)[/TD]

[TD]29-35% (3-4)[/TD]

[TD]35-37% (3)[/TD]

[TD]100%[/TD]

[TD]25%[/TD]

[TD]44-50%[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]6.5 MX[/TD]

[TD]32/100% (2)[/TD]

[TD]10-25% (5-6)[/TD]

[TD]23-30% (4)[/TD]

[TD]100%[/TD]

[TD]17-22%[/TD]

[TD]31-36%[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]5.56 SOAR[/TD]

[TD]17/100% (2)[/TD]

[TD]7-15% (5-7)[/TD]

[TD]7-17% (5-7)[/TD]

[TD]100%[/TD]

[TD]5-10%[/TD]

[TD]16-19%[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD].45 Vermin[/TD]

[TD]22/100% (2)[/TD]

[TD]10% (7)[/TD]

[TD]12% (5)[/TD]

[TD]100%[/TD]

[TD]15-25%[/TD]

[TD]25%[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]9mm Pistol[/TD]

[TD]10/100% (2)[/TD]

[TD]5% (9)[/TD]

[TD]7% (6)[/TD]

[TD]100%[/TD]

[TD]10%[/TD]

[TD]5-13%

[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

Edited December 13, 2013 by DNK

[armilio 14]

[TABLE=width: 700]

Here are the rough damage ranges for each weapon at close range. Generally, a second head shot always kills, as does a 4th or 5th chest shot. It seems scripted in that way, since even the 9mm can kill in 6 shots. The SOAR is probably bugged, since EVERY shot has the almost exact same percentage (usually there's a random factor), and it's always too low.

But this tab is against blufor soldier or opfor soldier? i have different result with opfor soldier (for example with MX is: 1/2-3/4-3)

Edited December 12, 2013 by Armilio

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

They must get rid of the body armor system till it's done. I played A3 with my squad for the past few days, and it was absolute hell. Must be disabled till the body armor system is fixed.

[Crazyhorse_6 10]

What in the heck is the best wep to use against tanks anyway? The PCML?

[dnk 13]

@Armilio

Good question. Against BLUFOR. I'll experiment with OPFOR and see what the result is.

[Kirill 1]

@Armilio

Good question. Against BLUFOR. I'll experiment with OPFOR and see what the result is.

Thanks for the table.

There's a funny detail ... It is easy to kill a man without a vest can any weapon ... but we all have body armor in the game.

100% death of a person without body armor (in this case) has a purely academic sense / interest.

[Greenfist 1863]

Thanks for the table.

There's a funny detail ... It is easy to kill a man without a vest can any weapon ... but we all have body armor in the game.

100% death of a person without body armor (in this case) has a purely academic sense / interest.

You can take the armor off in the game. Unarmored means t-shirt and shorts.

You mean taking off all your gear and running around half naked wasn't the first thing you did in Arma 3? :D

[rye1 21]

I don't know how the figures were made but am I the only one who thinks 100% death rate for being shot in an unarmored chest is not realistic?

[Kirill 1]

I don't know how the figures were made but am I the only one who thinks 100% death rate for being shot in an unarmored chest is not realistic?

No, it is not realistic. And realistically be if people in T-shirts will not die from a single shot in the chest?) Repeat is the 100th time ... important to make an advanced system of normal body injuries / wounds on the body's response. This will solve a lot of problems with other things. This is the basis of wounds, armor, treatment, etc. Before there are no realistic adequate reaction of the body to injury - one shot at a T-shirt - one kill - the norm.

[maturin 12]

100% casualty rate for being shot in an armored chest is realistic. It's just that the game doesn't simulate various wound states, and all casualties and incapacitations are represented by death.

[rye1 21]

Wound ballistics studies pertaining to Law Enforcement on criminal actions will equal the answer, no. One shot isn't a be-all end-all. There's always outliers, but most of the time anyway in wound ballistics studies - whatever sector you look into - the conclusion is multiple rounds. Clothing, body armour or not. But that's where shot-placement comes in, and thus in game hitpoint locations, hit detection and damage propagation. Very complex, sometimes engine-stated issues to 'fix' or find a work-around for.

It's just that the game doesn't simulate various wound states, and all casualties and incapacitations are represented by death.

Yes, a multi-faceted issue. Multiple solutions would have to be made in conjunction with each other to get such features in-game. Wound states as a whole is limited, I know this through a medical mod I help with called CMS. We rely on damage recognition over limits, and chances detected off of that to create a dynamic, ever-changing patient. What else could you do right now? I don't know any other solutions. It's very hard to get any medical potential from ArmA. Incapacitation needs a place if they want to push those medical boundaries.

[maturin 12]

But absent advanced wounding simulation with incapacitation, you don't take an assault rifle round to the unprotected chest and walk off the battlefield unless you're incredibly lucky. Sure, in real life you might be able to gun down your assailant before staggering into a corner and collapsing, but in the extremely-simplified terms of the game, you should be dead. You're only being robbed of a few minutes during which you'd be semi mobile. Then CASEVAC and months of recovery.

[Greenfist 1863]

...Sure, in real life you might be able to gun down your assailant before staggering into a corner and collapsing,...

I don't know if this has been mentioned already somewhere but that would actually be a great feature for Arma. I mean that after taking a lethal damage, you wouldn't instantly drop dead but instead be able to function very limitedly for a few seconds before dying. Dark and blurred vision, terrible shaking, slow movement etc.

There would have to be some threshold, so that only when you receive small enough damage that just slightly kills you, this feature would be activated.

[dnk 13]

I don't know how the figures were made but am I the only one who thinks 100% death rate for being shot in an unarmored chest is not realistic?

1. I should note these are center-of-mass shots, heart/lung area.

2. It would "incapacitate" someone (after a few moments/minutes at least), which is what "dead" means in this game. It's up to the mission maker to add revival/medical scripts to allow such "incapacitated" people to return to the fight or not. It would certainly be nice if we had more advanced medical modeling, at least as a modular option.

[dav 22]

One shot in head = dead meat

Shot in legs = crawling maggot

Shot once in torso = bleeding out & incapacitated

Please Bis simplify this

[Chocolate 1]

At least we all agree something needs to be added.

[RushHour 11]

One shot in head = dead meat

Shot in legs = crawling maggot

Shot once in torso = bleeding out & incapacitated

Please Bis simplify this

This.

Right now you can shoot an AI in the face, he will do his little dangle then start shooting back at you like you just shot him with a BB gun.

If you take a bullet in the face you are OUT. You might survive(after ten hours of intense surgery) but you won´t be standing around firing at other people.

[GReeves 10]

This reminds me of a firearms training class my dad was taking. He told me that the instructors were talking about armor, and it went something like this:

Instructor: "If they're wearing body armor, then you go for a headshot."

Student: "But what if they're wearing head armor!?"

Everyone in the class laughed, but unfortunately it seems Bohemia Interactive is just as ignorant as that guy in the class.

[spanishsurfer 58]

I like Dav's post...it's easiest.

[chops 111]

Something desperately needs to change. It's so infuriating shooting enemy AI who seem to only twitch slightly and then to get a bead on you and head shot you dead. OFP worked better in that regard. I'd prefer no ragdoll to no wounding.

[rye1 21]

Dat Iranian death dance. Twitchin'.

[Yoshi 10]

I also agree with the damage in game, I've personally emptied half a clip into a Opfor soldier and had two rounds returned at me and end my life. I think the systems needs a massive overall. If the real world is anything to go on then anyone hit by a 5.56mm upwards is going down in under 3 rounds, 4 max if they have a chest rig. They should have the main hit areas sorted out to the Torso and head for a minimum of 1-3 hits until the target says bye bye. With the constant deaths due to not only their extreme skills in aiming and their ability to hit us and kill us in 1-3 bullets, there has to be something they can do to even the playing field.

My approach would be to have 4 areas of effect on the both player and targets a like.

-Torso 1-3 hits

-Head 1-2 hits

-Arms 2-4 hits

-Legs 2-4 hits

I know for a fact that in real life bullets don't just enter and stay or go right through, they actually most of the time. Bounce around inside the body for maximum damage, I find the best way to level the playing field is to give us the same level of damage both dealt and received.

[Tonci87 163]

I also agree with the damage in game, I've personally emptied half a clip into a Opfor soldier and had two rounds returned at me and end my life. I think the systems needs a massive overall. If the real world is anything to go on then anyone hit by a 5.56mm upwards is going down in under 3 rounds, 4 max if they have a chest rig. They should have the main hit areas sorted out to the Torso and head for a minimum of 1-3 hits until the target says bye bye. With the constant deaths due to not only their extreme skills in aiming and their ability to hit us and kill us in 1-3 bullets, there has to be something they can do to even the playing field.

My approach would be to have 4 areas of effect on the both player and targets a like.

-Torso 1-3 hits

-Head 1-2 hits

-Arms 2-4 hits

-Legs 2-4 hits

I know for a fact that in real life bullets don't just enter and stay or go right through, they actually most of the time. Bounce around inside the body for maximum damage, I find the best way to level the playing field is to give us the same level of damage both dealt and received.

No, simply no. This is the wrong approach.

We should want to get away from the HP based system to a more realistic one. Vests and Plate carriers should protect the area covered by them. If a round can´t penetrate the vest then so be it and no damage should be applied to the AI or player, aim for a exposed body part or bring a bigger gun.

Watch this video

The Kevlar vest alone offers some quite good protection from small arms fire (those guys were pretty close though). If you have something with the protection level 4 then you won´t achieve much by shooting the vest.

And we need a better reaction to hits for the AI. Make them go Ragdoll when they are hit.

[fraczek 4]

I mean that after taking a lethal damage, you wouldn't instantly drop dead but instead be able to function very limitedly for a few seconds before dying. Dark and blurred vision, terrible shaking, slow movement etc.

You mean like what we already had in vanilla Arma 2? Rolling about uncontrollably in pain, until attended to by a medic? Where you could sort of still fight if you crawled forward a bit but would be totally shaky, not able to aim down any sights and not able to reload or stand? Worked pretty well back then (except when the AI medic refused to heal you or ran to you carelessly only to by gunned down as well).

[armilio 14]

No, simply no. This is the wrong approach.

We should want to get away from the HP based system to a more realistic one. Vests and Plate carriers should protect the area covered by them. If a round can´t penetrate the vest then so be it and no damage should be applied to the AI or player, aim for a exposed body part or bring a bigger gun.

Watch this video

The Kevlar vest alone offers some quite good protection from small arms fire (those guys were pretty close though). If you have something with the protection level 4 then you won´t achieve much by shooting the vest.

And we need a better reaction to hits for the AI. Make them go Ragdoll when they are hit.

Yes but maybe is too complicated. Because Bohemia should introduce the choice about armour-level, and effect in sprint e run with a heavier body armour. Would be nice, but it is improbable.