Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[-Coulum- 35]

I think on all difficulties, some sort of fatigue metre should be optional. The difficulty of this game shouldn't be guessing how fatigued your soldier is. Personally I wouldn't use it because I don't like to clutter up the screen. But I certainly wouldn't have a problem with other people using.

And it doesn't neccessarily have to be a bar. It could be the stance indicator turining from green to yello to orange to red or something similar.

A good thing for having a HUD indicator at this time is that BI is still calibrating and tweaking the fatigue feature. An indicator or measure of how fatigued you are would help tremendously in providing good tangible feedback. "Hey, I ran for 10 seconds with this and that equipment and I am 90% fatigued - what gives?

Yes and no. I like to test things and get numerical stats but at the same time I think BI wants us to get a "feel" for the system. How fast our fatigue reaches a certain number threshold isn't as important as how fast it has a noticeable effect on gameplay. You could reach 90% fatigue in 10 metres, but if the game consequences are negligible than it isn't actually anything to complain about. Its like the breathing. Before this new fatigue, many people used to complain that their soldier gets tired after 10 seconds (because they hear the heavy panting) but didn't at all acknowledge the fact that it has no ingame consequence aside from annoying noise. Their soldier can continue to run for miles on end at the same pace. The indicator didn't really represent the ingame effect. Same could be true for a fatigue bar.

I understand what your saying but indicators do not give the whole picture. Sometimes its best to judge by what "feels" right.

Edited July 9, 2014 by -Coulum-

[EDcase 87]

I like the idea of stance indicator changing colour. (Not strong colour but pastels so not too obtrusive)

- Doesn't add more clutter to HUD

- Good to learn how fatigue affects you but easily ignored once you are used to it.

- Doesn't give an exact % of fatigue.

Edited July 9, 2014 by EDcase

[Alwarren 2767]

I agree, some kind of fatigue meter is definitely needed for more casual players

Why? We don't have a health bar either, nor should we have one.

[Greenfist 1863]

Why? We don't have a health bar either, nor should we have one.

That was somewhat intentional elitist sarcasm.

On top of that, I also would like a health indicator with accurate percentage value, enemy detection meter and little red arrows pointing to direction of the incoming gunfire.

/s

In other words, I think the fatigue is indicated perfectly sufficiently as it is.

[CaptainObvious 95]

IDK, I can already tell how fatigued my character is, the sway, panting, vignette and running speed all indicate it accurate enough, I don't need a separate indicator for it. My 2c.

[Bouben 3]

I like the idea of stance indicator changing colour. (Not strong colour but pastels so not too obtrusive)

- Doesn't add more clutter to HUD

- Good to learn how fatigue affects you but easily ignored once you are used to it.

- Doesn't give an exact % of fatigue.

I agree with this implementation.

This should be an optional fatigue indicator available on all difficulty levels. In real life you simply know how you feel at a time. It does not make any sense to turn off the stance indicator and having to look at your legs to get information about your stance (clunky, unnatural, unreal) and so is to having to guess information about your fatigue that is so naturally given to you in real life.

[Alwarren 2767]

On top of that, I also would like a health indicator with accurate percentage value, enemy detection meter and little red arrows pointing to direction of the incoming gunfire.

You forgot the grenade indicator then, and the message about cars sometimes exploding.

[Bouben 3]

You forgot the grenade indicator then, and the message about cars sometimes exploding.

Guys, you are completely in a different territory with these comments. Fatigue feedback indicator has nothing to do with dumbing the game down.

[Variable 322]

Guys, you are completely in a different territory with these comments. Fatigue feedback indicator has nothing to do with dumbing the game down.

It most certainly has. Every artificial indicator about an aspect that you can get feedback about without an artificial aid is dumbing the game down.

[Bouben 3]

It most certainly has. Every artificial indicator about an aspect that you can get feedback about without an artificial aid is dumbing the game down.

So you want to have it more difficult in the game than in the real life? I don't. I want to have instant information about my "feeling" in the game because I have instant information in real life.

Not having the fatigue indicator is just an artificial increase in difficulty. It is the same principle as playing with your eyes closed. It would be difficult but that is about it...

[suiside 95]

irl you have a heartbeat and vision issues, (vision issues like tunnel vision etc.) when fatigued, i really miss the heartbeat sensation, because any one who ever sprinted (for example) in an instant or any one who climbed a steep hill at a good pace knows the heart is felt through out the body and can even be heard as blood rushes past your eardrums. that would be a good indicator,

i've seen screens of goggle mods where the outline is black, they could use that kind of indicator with a not pitch black but more alpha shaded color pulsing at a simulated heart beat, narrowing and darkening as one is more fatigued.

then there is no bar no meter no number, but like in real life a sort of tunnel vision and heart beat, which might also be slightly audible in my perspective

edit:

might be toggled on or off, and dependend on skill settings.

[Bouben 3]

edit:

might be toggled on or off, and dependend on skill settings.

Dependent on skill settings...that is the part I will probably never understand...

...but whatever guys I already put my cents here. No need to repeat myself.

[Alwarren 2767]

Guys, you are completely in a different territory with these comments. Fatigue feedback indicator has nothing to do with dumbing the game down.

I prefer a "natural" indication over an artificial one. A bar is artificial, and not necessary since you will feel the effect of fatigue anyway. I like the heartbeat idea, but introducing more HUD elements is IMO the wrong way, it completely pulls me out of the experience.

There are some things like stance and fire mode that you cannot really have a natural feedback on (fire select switch being invisible or not visible at big, 3d vision impaired by lack of depth perception etc), but fatigue has directly obvious feedback (panting, heart rate) that serve the purpose perfectly well. The only criticism I'd have at this moment is that it sounds more like a cough bright now than panting.

[Greenfist 1863]

Have you guys even played the game? There are plenty of indicators of your fatigue level. The gun starts jiggling more at a very early state, you notice it even without aiming down sights. The crosshair get bigger. Movement becomes slower. Breathing intensifies. Vignette. I just ran 100m with 3 satchel charges in my back, so I guess it's safe to assume that I'm a bit out of breath.

If you want learn how fatigue works and see some numbers, use the VR training or the script I posted in the first page.

[Varanon 892]

Why do you even need to know how fatigued you are... if you aim down sights and see the gun skip around like crazy, that should be a really good indication about how fatigued you are.

Even if you have some sort of indicator, be it numerical, or bar, or whatever, what will you do with that information ? The only thing it can tell you is that you will be slower (which you already notice when running anyway), and that you can't aim for shit (which you will also see when you try to aim).

So, in essence, adding a fatigue indicator will NOT convey any information at all. What do you do when you ran some, and get into a firing position ? You lie down and aim... assuming there IS a fatigue indicator, what would you do ? Look at the indicator until it's "green" again ? Or look down the sights and open fire when you think the sway is controllable ? I know what I would do, and that does not include an indicator.

So, could those that are in favor of an indicator tell me what they expect to read from it that they can't already experience in the game ?

[Bouben 3]

So, could those that are in favor of an indicator tell me what they expect to read from it that they can't already experience in the game ?

Well, if the indicator was percentual, then it would be possible to estimate when you are ready to go and give that information to your mates. I have to agree that any other indicator than exact percentual would probably be pointless as the breathing and swaying are indicating general fatigue enough.

Anyway, percentual indicator is something that would cause rage in the anti-HUD community so I think there is no chance to even discuss it. :-D

[Janez 533]

Having an indicator would be great. I.E. you would know how fatigued you are at all times and know when to stop and rest to prevent going 100%. Being slightly tired is often better then being completely out of breath.

And if you do not like the indicator you could turn it off in difficulty settings just like stance indicator. It can be really small as well or even better, just numerical value in %.

[Variable 322]

BIS please don't add no freaking fatigue indicator/bar graph/percentage. It would be immersion murderer, it will make natural indications such as panting and aim swaying redundant, and it has nothing to do with what Arma is all about. Thank you.

[JSharpe 1]

BIS please don't add no freaking fatigue indicator/bar graph/percentage. It would be immersion murderer, it will make natural indications such as panting and aim swaying redundant, and it has nothing to do with what Arma is all about. Thank you.

How would it make it redundant? I'm on the fence with a indicator being present, but to say it would make aim swaying redundant makes no sense. If anything make it a difficulty setting change like other parts of the HUD that hide the crosshair, stance, and other indicators. Implementing a fatigue indicator will not remove weapon sway. The weapon sway is a good way to tell if you're out of breath. On another note what about the stance indicator? Having that doesn't make stance views redundant, it's just a quick way to see what stance you are currently in; be it standing, crouching, prone, or any of the ones in between.

Could you expand on your post a little more?

[Alwarren 2767]

Anyway, percentual indicator is something that would cause rage in the anti-HUD community so I think there is no chance to even discuss it. :-D

Nothing beats a well-thought-out argument. You convinced me.

What extra information do you get from a gauge that your wheezing and coughing doesn't give you? What is the meaning of "50% fatigued"? What difference does it make? If you are about to engage, and you are fatigued, you'll say "give me a few seconds to settle my breath", because that is what we are talking about - a few seconds.

[Varanon 892]

Well, if the indicator was percentual, then it would be possible to estimate when you are ready to go and give that information to your mates. I have to agree that any other indicator than exact percentual would probably be pointless as the breathing and swaying are indicating general fatigue enough.

How would you be able to predict when you are ready ? If you KNOW how fast fatigue goes down, you could, but again, how would you translate those values you get from the indicator to an actual time of readiness ? The only clear indication you have is if you can line up a shot. No indicator will ever tell you that any better than just aiming and trying to keep your aim steady.

As such, any sort of indicator is unnecessary. You see the weapon sway, you see some blurring on the sides, you hear your breathing. More, you do not know, and an indicator would not help you in any way.

---------- Post added at 02:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:02 PM ----------

Having an indicator would be great. I.E. you would know how fatigued you are at all times and know when to stop and rest to prevent going 100%. Being slightly tired is often better then being completely out of breath.

And if you do not like the indicator you could turn it off in difficulty settings just like stance indicator. It can be really small as well or even better, just numerical value in %.

Again, how would an indicator give you any more information than you already have ?

Moreover, assume you had a full awareness of the percentage of your exhaustion (something you don't have in real life either). What threshold would you take ? 50 % ? Naw, I can run... 51 % ? Ok, now I have to stop. There are visual and audible indicators that tell you how fatigued you are (basically, it's like a green, yellow, red indicator, like, you're in the green when you don't see/hear anything, you are in the yellow when you start breathing heavily, and you're in red when you start having the blurry border). There is all the information you need.

And again, the ultimate fatigue indicator is the look over your weapon sight at the target.

I fail to see how a fatigue indicator could be useful or transfer more information than you already have.

Go ahead and convince me.

[neodammerung 8]

Fatigue as is it right now in dev branch isn't bad BUT since there is no proper use of bipods (yet... I hope on day) I can already tell there will be a lot of complaint when it will reach stable branch because as soon as you're hit, it's impossible to aim at anything, even at 30m

As for the Fatigue Indicator... I guess you also want a Life Indicator and an Armor Indicator right ? :plain:

Edited July 9, 2014 by Neodammerung

[Greenfist 1863]

you'll say "give me a few seconds to settle my breath", because that is what we are talking about - a few seconds.

By the way, a basic rifleman needs to lie down for 23 seconds to completely recover from total exhaustion. A missile specialist with heavier gear needs 80 s.

It's 35/125s when in crouched stance. At 50% fatigue you're still very functional, your speed has dropped only a bit and the gun sway is still reasonable.

Does anyone else think that heavier loadout shouldn't be punished so much? Or is the game simulating the thing that when you're exhausted with heavy gear, every muscle is oxygen deprived and recover more slowly, whereas with light load it's mainly your lower body?

[Janez 533]

Again, how would an indicator give you any more information than you already have ?

Moreover, assume you had a full awareness of the percentage of your exhaustion (something you don't have in real life either). What threshold would you take ? 50 % ? Naw, I can run... 51 % ? Ok, now I have to stop. There are visual and audible indicators that tell you how fatigued you are (basically, it's like a green, yellow, red indicator, like, you're in the green when you don't see/hear anything, you are in the yellow when you start breathing heavily, and you're in red when you start having the blurry border). There is all the information you need.

And again, the ultimate fatigue indicator is the look over your weapon sight at the target.

I fail to see how a fatigue indicator could be useful or transfer more information than you already have.

Lets take stance indicator and use your thoughts. What more do you get having it? Position of your arms in different stances, camera height and weapon sway already indicate everything and enough.

So, let me explain again. Purpose of indicator for ME, would be to determine how tired my character is so I wouldn't exhaust him too much. I don't know what threshold I would tolerate yet. I suppose it depends on on my loadout, what kind of engagement am I expecting and when, etc.

Honestly, it is rather difficult to determine how tired you character is based on audio and visual indications with certain loads.

It also does not take few seconds to catch you breath, especially with full load. Not to mention if injured and healed with FAK (also sounds like an asthma attack all the time). It takes more then enough time to get a bullet in your head ten times over.

And, obviously you don't have any indicators stapled to you eye in real life but you do know your body. You know how tired you are, what you can and cannot do. Especially if you are an athlete or a soldier.

I mean really, you cannot know exactly how much ammo you have left in most types of magazines IRL. Or which grenade you have selected, etc. That does not mean HUD should be removed from game. Difficulty settings are there to customize the game to your likings. If fatigue indicator is added it would be cool little addition if not, just as well.

Go ahead and convince me.

Are you going to put it in the game if I do?

As for the Fatigue Indicator... I guess you also want a Life Indicator and an Armor Indicator right ? :plain:

Right. :bored:

[Alwarren 2767]

Lets take stance indicator and use your thoughts. What more do you get having it? Position of your arms in different stances, camera height and weapon sway already indicate everything and enough.

There is no feedback for your current stance except the stance indicator. Variations of stance especially are too subtle to recognize. The same with the fire mode. The switch is not always visible, and you have no way to feel it. But above all, these things are "fixed-valued". You are either standing, kneeling, or prone. With fatigue, where would you put your 50% point in reality? When are you half-fatigued?

I am not saying that you shouldn't know your fatigue level, or at least have an indication of how fatigued you are. But while in reality you can perfectly say whether you are standing or kneeling, or verify that your gun is on safe or single fire, you cannot say "I am 50% fatigued now", and hence, this is not an information you would readily have available. Hence, you eyeball it. The panting and display blur give you an indication, not a value, and it shouldn't. I agree it could be more obvious, and I like the idea of a heartbeat, and maybe impair hearing by adding a low-pass filter on the audio. But in no way should the game tell you your fatigue level, this is just information that is not available to you. It should convey the feeling of exhaustion.