CiA Petition Letter to BIS and DnA's Response

[Redphoenix 1540]

I can't really get behind much of this letter.

Anyone who really wants inertia in their movement is just being masochistic. It's part of what turned people off on ArmA 2 movement, and is a huge annoyance that humans in real life can handle without a second thought. Strap it to an in-game avatar, however, and the game becomes a walking simulator for a drunken velociraptor.

As for weapons no longer colliding with walls, this is a case of no progress rather than retrogression. Does no one remember the ArmA 2 bullshit of not being able to sidestep through doors or navigate hallways? Yes, it made long weapons difficult to handle indoors in theory, but the result was enormously frustrating bullshit, not gameplay. Half of us modded that crap out of the game anyways. Both states of affairs are bad, until we get weapons that lower automatically when colliding with walls.

And again with loadouts and medical systems, it's no progress as opposed to retrogression. According to taste, the situation is a bit worse, but if you call ArmA 2's inventory, encumbrance and medical systems anything other than crap, you are wearing 1000mm RHA rose-colored glasses. The medical system was glitched out the ass, with avatars getting stuck in interminable animation loops, sliding across the battlefield uncontrollably, waiting forever for medics...

In sum, I somewhat share the sentiment of the letter, but for reasons of missed opportunities and lack of progress, rather than backsliding. The game's biggest problem remains the content. While I completely accept that the ArmA 2 release content was exceptional and unrepeatable, BIS has aimed at quality over quantity and hit neither.

And yet, on balance, I expected better from this community, which seems to have been afflicted by acute amnesia about how ArmA 2's release was. And everyone seems to have forgotten all of ArmA 2's amazing new features. The movement and stance stuff itself is worth a new game.

Also DnA, what are these explosive and ballistic improvements? They have never been demonstrated for the community.

This is by far the best post in this thread. 100% my opinion.

I really like A3 a lot, as well as the way it develops. But it's just lacking content and optimizing.

[-=seany=- 5]

With regards to the actual requests of the letter, I would also have to agree with Maturin

[andersson 285]

That was removed a while ago.

Ah good. Then it's time for me to re-start arma3, I could not play with that red circle :D

[Alwarren 2767]

Anyone who really wants inertia in their movement is just being masochistic. It's part of what turned people off on ArmA 2 movement, and is a huge annoyance that humans in real life can handle without a second thought. Strap it to an in-game avatar, however, and the game becomes a walking simulator for a drunken velociraptor.

Other games do this as well. If you look at e.g. Assassin's Creed, you get inertia without getting bogged down by it. There is no need for digital speed (either zero or full), a gradual increase over half a second or so would go a long way to make movement natural.

As for weapons no longer colliding with walls, this is a case of no progress rather than retrogression. Does no one remember the ArmA 2 bullshit of not being able to sidestep through doors or navigate hallways? Yes, it made long weapons difficult to handle indoors in theory, but the result was enormously frustrating bullshit, not gameplay. Half of us modded that crap out of the game anyways. Both states of affairs are bad, until we get weapons that lower automatically when colliding with walls.

Again, other games have weapon collision as well. SWAT comes to mind. I do not think that Arma 2 did a good job at CQB, but neither does Arma 3. Yes, you can move flawlessly inside a house now, but the point is, you can do that with a Carryall, Launcher and machine gun equally well as with an SMG. Why do SMG's and short weapon version even exist in the game? They are completely pointless, UNLESS they would have an advantage in CQB. Which they don't.

And again with loadouts and medical systems, it's no progress as opposed to retrogression. According to taste, the situation is a bit worse, but if you call ArmA 2's inventory, encumbrance and medical systems anything other than crap, you are wearing 1000mm RHA rose-colored glasses. The medical system was glitched out the ass, with avatars getting stuck in interminable animation loops, sliding across the battlefield uncontrollably, waiting forever for medics...

Why does it have to be regression to be an issue? I don't have a problem with the inventory system, just with the capacities. Granted, since this letter has been written a lot of things have changed in that respect (the letter predates the tweaking of capacities), but still, the inventory system goes by weight only, not bulk, and the weights are somewhat high still. You can fit a lot of missiles in a backpack that is physically too small to hold them.

As for the medical system, the existence of FAK's (and please no "you can remove FAK's") makes the medic a minor character. The carry capacities makes ammo bearers unnecessary. The result of this is loss of teamplay requirements.

In sum, I somewhat share the sentiment of the letter, but for reasons of missed opportunities and lack of progress, rather than backsliding. The game's biggest problem remains the content. While I completely accept that the ArmA 2 release content was exceptional and unrepeatable, BIS has aimed at quality over quantity and hit neither.

Keep in mind that the letter has been written long before we even knew what the final package would contain.

And yet, on balance, I expected better from this community, which seems to have been afflicted by acute amnesia about how ArmA 2's release was. And everyone seems to have forgotten all of ArmA 2's amazing new features. The movement and stance stuff itself is worth a new game.

*sigh* Here we go again. Make a critical comment, receive insults. Thank you, I still retain my memory.

[chortles 263]

I can't really get behind much of this letter.

Anyone who really wants inertia in their movement is just being masochistic. It's part of what turned people off on ArmA 2 movement, and is a huge annoyance that humans in real life can handle without a second thought. Strap it to an in-game avatar, however, and the game becomes a walking simulator for a drunken velociraptor.

As for weapons no longer colliding with walls, this is a case of no progress rather than retrogression. Does no one remember the ArmA 2 bullshit of not being able to sidestep through doors or navigate hallways? Yes, it made long weapons difficult to handle indoors in theory, but the result was enormously frustrating bullshit, not gameplay. Half of us modded that crap out of the game anyways. Both states of affairs are bad, until we get weapons that lower automatically when colliding with walls.

And again with loadouts and medical systems, it's no progress as opposed to retrogression. According to taste, the situation is a bit worse, but if you call ArmA 2's inventory, encumbrance and medical systems anything other than crap, you are wearing 1000mm RHA rose-colored glasses. The medical system was glitched out the ass, with avatars getting stuck in interminable animation loops, sliding across the battlefield uncontrollably, waiting forever for medics...

In sum, I somewhat share the sentiment of the letter, but for reasons of missed opportunities and lack of progress, rather than backsliding. The game's biggest problem remains the content. While I completely accept that the ArmA 2 release content was exceptional and unrepeatable, BIS has aimed at quality over quantity and hit neither.

And yet, on balance, I expected better from this community, which seems to have been afflicted by acute amnesia about how ArmA 2's release was. And everyone seems to have forgotten all of ArmA 2's amazing new features. The movement and stance stuff itself is worth a new game.

Also DnA, what are these explosive and ballistic improvements? They have never been demonstrated for the community.

+1 to all of this, to be quite honest, full and total agreement... including your remarks about "where are these explosive and ballistic improvements?" and most of all your remarks about the community. :p As with RedPhoenix, "by far the best post in this thread. 100% my opinion."

Other games do this as well. If you look at e.g. Assassin's Creed, you get inertia without getting bogged down by it. There is no need for digital speed (either zero or full), a gradual increase over half a second or so would go a long way to make movement natural.

Somewhere in DnA's response I interpreted one of his comments as essentially implying "our devs tried to get inertia... but failed, and ran out of allocated time/resources with which to keep trying", or at least this is based on Maruk's own remark at the E3 floor about it basically saying that "yeah, we gave a shot at it -- didn't work out" and the unspoken "I'm allowing them to ship without it."

[Smurf 12]

RO2 has great "inertia" solutions for weapons and characters movement, diff between short and long weapons indoors (auto-lower). No gameplay maim or sadistic approach.

Don't think any of those will ever be in Arma because of the engine.

The medical system in A2 indeed was bug ridden but at least was something. And something it's better than the nothing we have now, gameplay wise (it wasn't realistic at all so no argument on "mil simmers").

As for ballistics:

Or this (in short): http://i.imgur.com/ZyEGik8.jpg

Honestly, IMO, Arma should be more hardcore at it's core without having to go for mods because it's Arma.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Smurf

[maturin 12]

Why does it have to be regression to be an issue?

Very good point. I only wrote such a strong response because your letter tacitly accuses them of turning their back on realism and true fans, making the game arcade and other choices with inflammatory implications that I think are manifestly unfair when applied to ArmA 3's development. Point is, I am also disappointed, but because of missed opportunities, not because of 'betrayal.' I think we've seen BIS try its best and fail, which is disheartening, but instead of asking for explanations, we should spend our energy pushing for the post-release additions and 'mod hooks' (to use DnA's excellent term) that we now know are coming.

*sigh* Here we go again. Make a critical comment, receive insults. Thank you, I still retain my memory.

Sorry, I meant the ArmA community at large, not your community and your letter. The immaturity and widespread hyperbole of this forum as a whole more than merits the very mild put-down of 'amnesiac.'

[bad benson 1733]

but if you call ArmA 2's inventory, encumbrance and medical systems anything other than crap, you are wearing 1000mm RHA rose-colored glasses.

why do people think that anyone wants the exact same medical system with the exact same bugs like in arma 2? people are bringing up arma 2 because it has more (optional cuz module...duh) possibilities in that regard not because they like the bugs of it.

same with revive. it was initially brought up to show that most popular COOP missions have something that basically replaces a medical system, which shows there's a need for it. yet people think (or act like it to have an attack point) that if you ask for a progression from arma 2's medical system that you want exactly what revive scripts do inside the core game. *sigh*

again. i see no one ever describing the current system in detail and why it is so great or how it improved gameplay. all i see is cheap arguments against asking for a progression instead of cutting of everything that doesn't work properly. how about fixing and improving it instead? i know, mind blowing...

all i see is a lot of "i personally don't care about that certain feature so you must be misguided for caring about it. here let me show you why you are so misguided". geez. is it really that hard to imagine that not everyone who doesn't have the exact same priorities as you is an idiot? a lot of attitude in here with not much behind it.

everyone thinks he has the most fabulous opinion and that's ok. but let's stop trying to make some else's look stupid using cheap methods. it's so tiring.

inflammatory implications... because of 'betrayal.'

geez. this starts to feel like dealing with a bunch of sensitive pansies. why is everyone reading stuff into other people's statement and solely focusing on tone. how about we focus on actual points. i can see many points i disagree in that letter and "views" i don't share bit it couldn't be more polite so stop bitching about its tone already. this obsession with reading between the lines reminds me of my ex...

Edited September 26, 2013 by Bad Benson

[Sealife 22]

The whole thing should be in addons requests

its compolete hypocrisy that a group of 67 out of 1.5 million or so wish to have hardcoded 3 things that suite a style of gameplay that 90% of BIS customers do not play

Looking at the contributors to the petition they could have and should (being as this is a clan and gamestyle request ) modded it in and made it even more bespoke to there needs.

Not one element is not Moddable , from the Geometry shape used when PST RFL NOn animations are used , the hysterisis and thresholds and frequencies for Loads carried vs Maxrun speed and the Basis for any number of medic alternatives are there since OFP

completely ridiculous that these requests are touted as a Must have , especially the Inertia Bullshit , god that even gripes me when i am driving and running down a hill NOw , i dont want more of that shite .

Its all subjective of course but what goes in the Engine and hardcoded is far harder to get out than it is to MOD in and i`m sorry the numbers simply do not add up here.

[Smurf 12]

its compolete hypocrisy that a group of 67 out of 1.5 million or so wish to have hardcoded 3 things that suite a style of gameplay that 90% of BIS customers do not play

You are doing the EXACT same thing here. Who is right? :j:

[aoshi 1]

man 67... rsrs a bet you can get much more, but just wanna say for me

more realism more fun,

[Sealife 22]

You are doing the EXACT same thing here. Who is right? :j:

me becuase if i and my friends want to make changes to our gameplay we mod it and dont selfishly ask they be imposed on the masses via a secret open letter behind the scenes

[metalcraze 290]

Anyone who really wants inertia in their movement is just being masochistic. It's part of what turned people off on ArmA 2 movement, and is a huge annoyance that humans in real life can handle without a second thought. Strap it to an in-game avatar, however, and the game becomes a walking simulator for a drunken velociraptor.

RO2 and BF3 (to a lesser degree) have it. But somehow people call BF3 movement the pinnacle of perfection.

If you think anyone wants A2 inertia you are wrong. But ArmA3's floating camera is a lot worse than any of the titles mentioned above.

As for weapons no longer colliding with walls, this is a case of no progress rather than retrogression. Does no one remember the ArmA 2 bullshit of not being able to sidestep through doors or navigate hallways?

It's in A3 too. Pick MX, try to sidestep, tough beans. But you can sidestep with a long MG and AM sniper rifle no problem.

The solution is not to cut it out but add auto-lowering. Zero getting stuck, but if you will waltz around the tight house with an MG it will be lowered pretty much all the time and thus uneffective.

As for medic system. It's infinitely superior to anything the series ever had. The only issue with it was unbreakable animations. But, surprise, this issue is there in ArmA3 too.

Edited September 26, 2013 by metalcraze

[chortles 263]

me becuase if i and my friends want to make changes to our gameplay we mod it and dont selfishly ask they be imposed on the masses via a secret open letter behind the scenes

They only published because DnA bothered to reply... though well after they'd sent it. Besides, it's not like they were restating anything that the devs didn't already know... thankfully.

[bad benson 1733]

does anyone really think that a letter like this about a frikkin game will lead to any real reactions on the dev's side though? i mean just read the answer ;) how would you like it if someone told you how to do your job? as others have said. if you are really afraid about a revolution then start a counter revolution.

have to agree on inertia. i personally don't trust BI with making a good enjoyable inertia system at all. not until there is real time speed scaling of anims via scripts.

what people, who personally don't care about medic stuff, don't get though is that new better, less buggy medic anims (carrying and stuff too) and scripts help modders too. look at DAPs medical stuff that makes even AI use it. it wouldn't have been possible without the arma 2 module (which again is OPTIONAL). it's not always all black and white. modders need stuff to work with too. otherwise we would be happy with the engine and just build everything from scratch.

i understand that lots of people don't want a real hardcore game (me too) but it's not just milsim nerds against normal people. there's a bigger picture. in certain regards modders can only work with what's there. so smart move by BI to include those old buggy drag and carry anims.:p

me becuase if i and my friends want to make changes to our gameplay we mod it and dont selfishly ask they be imposed on the masses via a secret open letter behind the scenes

aw come on. people want well crafted features and not forced annoyances.

It's in A3 too. Pick MX, try to sidestep, tough beans. But you can sidestep with a long MG and AM sniper rifle no problem.

i honestly believe that certain people don't even play the core game a lot but still think they have the most balanced opinion about the quality of some of its features. i fucking hate gun collision though.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Bad Benson

[Sealife 22]

people want well crafted features and not forced annoyances

exactly i was replying about inertia shite and the elongated _x minutes to medic someone isnt for an open letter asking it to be hardcoded and imposed on the masses .

its for a select group to Mod that in not top be prioritised when AI are in need of help , the Altis cell size is way to small and 70 % of people cant even get on it, the animations guy has forgotten how to config and his work is spamming the arma.rpt etc etc .

these are all addon requests in the letter not for a minute should they be considered as absolute must for the masses and success of A3 . IMO of course and with respect to your own .

[pd3 25]

Movement

To say it clearly, movement was definitely an area in Arma 2 that needed improvement, and for the most part, we agree that the changes in Arma 3 are for the better. However, along the way some of the required features were lost, most notably inertia. Sprinting and stopping is basically instantaneous, with no transition whatsoever. This is independent of the loadout (see below), and independent of the weapon used. The lack of proper weapon collision in buildings also adds to this. The major impact this has on gameplay is that for one thing it makes loadout irrelevant, since movement is not seriously hampered by the amount and bulkiness of stuff carried. On the other hand, it also makes rifle sizes irrelevant; an SMG or sniper rifle’s only difference is fire frequency/ and magazine size. As a matter of fact, it makes the LMG the preferred CQB weapon, which is neither realistic, nor authentic. Picking a short weapon like an SMG only has disadvantages, nothing else.

So much this.

A3 would be viable IMO if they addressed this alone.

[Alwarren 2767]

me becuase if i and my friends want to make changes to our gameplay we mod it and dont selfishly ask they be imposed on the masses via a secret open letter behind the scenes

"secret open letter", are you serious? Wait... you probably are. Nevermind.

[chortles 263]

More like "supposedly open letter"...

[Alwarren 2767]

inertia shite

Seriously, is it impossible for people to stay civil? Is it asking too much?

[chortles 263]

does anyone really think that a letter like this about a frikkin game will lead to any real reactions on the dev's side though? i mean just read the answer ;) how would you like it if someone told you how to do your job?

Ironically, this is why I'm happy that this letter was published with DnA's response...

i personally don't trust BI with making a good enjoyable inertia system at all. not until there is real time speed scaling of anims via scripts.

Pffft yeah, it's a damning-with-faint-praise to "accept their limitations", but I recall Maruk outright admitting at E3 this year that they tried and failed.

[bad benson 1733]

be considered as absolute must for the masses and success of A3

yea i see what you mean about the "tone" of the letter (although i think you are overreacting) but i still don't see how an optional medic system that is a logical progression from arma 2's is forcing anything on everyone. again i think that some people are missing some things here.

this is how you mod a FAK (warning pseudo code)

this addaction ["treat self", {(_this select 0) setdamage 0.75; (_this select 0) setvariable ["bleeding" false, true]; etc bla bla}];

what do you think is needed to recreate the arma 2 medic module? have you tried? do you know the work involved and the problems? (no disrespect. i know you have skills and i love your weird ass videos ;) ) i guess not since you don't personally care about that feature (which is fine). but don't you understand how people who used it more than you might see a gap where there was something before?

i am the same as you, as in, making my own gameplay but there's also another part of me that played almost only insurgency in MP in arma 2 (best vanilla arma gameplay ever, alongside chernarus apocalypse). and that part of me is missing these things in the core game. it was an essential part of that game mode. especially the wounded state with restricted movement and shooting abilities. insurgency is one of the most popular game modes and there were always full servers until before arma 3 release. so we are not talking about 67 people here.

again. i don't fully agree with the letter but i fail to see how it hurts anyone and i find the arguments against the medic module are severely lacking.

[pd3 25]

me becuase if i and my friends want to make changes to our gameplay we mod it and dont selfishly ask they be imposed on the masses via a secret open letter behind the scenes

The changes this letter is asking for things are hard coded.

They can't be modded.

And the changes they're asking for are basically concurrent with what has made the series so enjoyed by so many for the past 10 years.

Who is the selfish one, really?

[Sealife 22]

Seriously, is it impossible for people to stay civil? Is it asking too much?

your offended i hurt the word Inertias feeling ?

Nothing was ever directed at you so please lets keep those little emotions calm please and not get blurred with it all, pretending you were attacked by the word Shite in here wont get you another Dev reply so lets concentrate on the debate in hand , you want something i dont want lets see if the compromise is a module or something yeah ? .

[pd3 25]

Seriously, is it impossible for people to stay civil? Is it asking too much?

Especially considering this is an aspect that constitutes exploring as an inevitable step forward in advancing game mechanics in the series.

Seriously, there would be no more ignoble a fate for this franchise than seeing five years down the road, the exact same gameplay dynamics being used as the five previous.

That kind of marketing is essentially what we've seen with console based FPS franchises, not the ARMA series.

Progress should not come at the blessing of the least forward thinking among us. Inevitably those people end up ponying up the dough anyhow.

---------- Post added at 17:14 ---------- Previous post was at 17:11 ----------

your offended i hurt the word Inertias feeling ?

Nothing was ever directed at you so please lets keep those little emotions calm please and not get blurred with it all, pretending you were attacked by the word Shite in here wont get you another Dev reply so lets concentrate on the debate in hand , you want something i dont want lets see if the compromise is a module or something yeah ? .

Why are you even interested in this franchise if you don't want to see this game set itself apart from other FPS games?

What the editor? The addons?

That seems like a fairly parasitic attitude to me.

Why not go lobby infinity ward for those features?