AI Discussion (dev branch)

[-Coulum- 35]

Yeah I am having trouble finding out the exact effects of the last change. Right now my "findings" is ai are less likely to aim directly at your head. They shoot with the same accuracy, just the target isn't always your head like it seemed to be before. Turrets are similar. They shoot bursts accurately, just those bursts sometimes aren't directly on target. They are still super deadly though (as they should be). If you survive a burst you will be lucky to survive the second.

All in all it seems that you are much more likely to get shot in arms legs or torso or have the shot narrowly miss than before. At least that is the feeling I am getting. Could be imagining it. I might have to switch back to stable just to compare. Oukej et al., would it be possible for you to elaborate a bit more on what the intended effect is and how it works? I am particularly interested in the bolded:

Adjusted: Dynamic Calculated Error for AI, working on turrets, reacting to loosing sight of target

Overall the firefights do "feel" better but I am not exactly sure why.

[Bouben 3]

Yeah I am having trouble finding out the exact effects of the last change. Right now my "findings" is ai are less likely to aim directly at your head. They shoot with the same accuracy, just the target isn't always your head like it seemed to be before. Turrets are similar. They shoot bursts accurately, just those bursts sometimes aren't directly on target. They are still super deadly though (as they should be). If you survive a burst you will be lucky to survive the second.

All in all it seems that you are much more likely to get shot in arms legs or torso or have the shot narrowly miss than before. At least that is the feeling I am getting. Could be imagining it. I might have to switch back to stable just to compare. Oukej et al., would it be possible for you to elaborate a bit more on what the intended effect is and how it works? I am particularly interested in the bolded:

Overall the firefights do "feel" better but I am not exactly sure why.

I don't think turrets should be that deadly. A gunner IRL has to aim with a joystick or something and that is not the most precise way of adjusting aiming. Therefore it should take significantly more time for turrets to aim and adjust aim. Especially on moving target. Especially on infantry targets. That dev update was a step in a right direction but it should be taken even further. I always hated Ifrit running over my squad with its auto-aim turret from 15 meters giving precise headshots to prone soldiers or running soldiers. Completely unrealistic - not to mention the unreal situational awareness of a gunner in a turret compared to real life. I am for significantly less precise turrets against infantry definitely - as in real life combat.

On the other hand it should not affect turrets against lockable targets such as aircraft or armor. That makes sense.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Bouben

[-Coulum- 35]

While moving, vehicles should be far less accurate. I agree.

While stationary though... with thermals, a built in range finder and a stabilized turret... I think its fine as is. I mean when I am gunning ingame, I find it extremely easy to nail ai when stationary. Maybe the ai's time to aim should be increased a bit but otherwise its pretty hard to miss as a player so it should be the same as an ai.

Now when it comes to vehicles without thermals, rangefidner etc. I agree that they should be much less accurate and be far more focused on laying down suppressive fire than sniping off enemies. But those are rare in arma 3.

I always hated Ifrit running over my squad with its auto-aim turret from 15 meters giving precise headshots to prone soldiers or running soldiers. Completely unrealistic - not to mention the unreal situational awareness of a gunner in a turret compared to real life. I am for significantly less precise turrets against infantry definitely - as in real life combat.

As you say though, this is an issue with the situational awareness of the gunner moreso than his accuracy. If the gunner actually had to find the location of each member of your squad, rather than knowing it because his driver told him and he remembered it perfectly, it would take a lot longer to roll over your squad. Add in the fact that your squad is ai (I am assuming since in coop Ifrits pin us but "rarely roll over us") that is unable to take cover from the ifrit and yeah, the vehicle gunners seem overpowered compared to reality. But the problem isn't the accuracy but rather spotting ability and ai's poor cover taking.

Does the latest change make vehicles unable to hit each other? I haven't noticed it but I haven't really tested it either.

[maturin 12]

The AI never aimed for the head. That's just the zeroing.

precisionFriendly=0.36999995;

precisionEnemy=0.1;

I'll be damned if those are actual default settings. The devs just said that anything lower than 0.2 is too low.

[-Coulum- 35]

The AI never aimed for the head. That's just the zeroing.

Well okay but no matter if they meant to hit you in the head or not, it seemed they did so often. I would say that maybe 25% of the times I got hit it was a headshot which is relatively high for the middle of a firefight (ie not calmly sniping). It seemed that ai used to be quite picky, always aiming at the same location often resulted in headshots. But now it seems that they are less picky and won't always go for that perfect centre of mass shot. I don't know if this is just my imagination though. Anyone else get that feeling?

precisionFriendly=0.36999995;

precisionEnemy=0.1;

Those are for recruit though are they not? I think veteran is like .7 or something. I have mine on 1 and 1 and the enemy has a aiming shake and accuracy of 0.8 according to this, and I find that the ai is fair. The problems come up when using different optics, like you mention above. They are too accurate when using ironsights at range. But with optics they are reasonable IMO.

[old_painless 182]

The AI never aimed for the head. That's just the zeroing.

I'll be damned if those are actual default settings. The devs just said that anything lower than 0.2 is too low.

Sorry, youre right - I misread the profile. For regular it says - with no tampering - these values

class regular

{

class Flags

{

.....

skillFriendly=0.75;

skillEnemy=0.60000002;

precisionFriendly=0.54999989;

precisionEnemy=0.28000003;

[Bouben 3]

While moving, vehicles should be far less accurate. I agree.

While stationary though... with thermals, a built in range finder and a stabilized turret... I think its fine as is. I mean when I am gunning ingame, I find it extremely easy to nail ai when stationary. Maybe the ai's time to aim should be increased a bit but otherwise its pretty hard to miss as a player so it should be the same as an ai.

Now when it comes to vehicles without thermals, rangefidner etc. I agree that they should be much less accurate and be far more focused on laying down suppressive fire than sniping off enemies. But those are rare in arma 3.

As you say though, this is an issue with the situational awareness of the gunner moreso than his accuracy. If the gunner actually had to find the location of each member of your squad, rather than knowing it because his driver told him and he remembered it perfectly, it would take a lot longer to roll over your squad. Add in the fact that your squad is ai (I am assuming since in coop Ifrits pin us but "rarely roll over us") that is unable to take cover from the ifrit and yeah, the vehicle gunners seem overpowered compared to reality. But the problem isn't the accuracy but rather spotting ability and ai's poor cover taking.

Does the latest change make vehicles unable to hit each other? I haven't noticed it but I haven't really tested it either.

Good points.

[KeyCat 131]

Me and a buddy liking night stealth op missions. But it can be really disspointing, when guys without NVGs spot you at quite far distances...

@NeuroFunker: Are you sure some of the AI didn't had NVG's and it really was pitch black? Do you have a repro mission?

I ran some small tests a few nights ago and one AI without NVG's on a very dark night (ie no moon) was not able to see me until I was ~3 m infront of him and after he spotted me he then had hard time deciding if I was friend or foe so he did not engage me directly.

In another test I walked into a spotlight beam with the AI strait ahead and it wasn't until I was lit up by the lamps that he spotted me at ~45 meters.

Overall and with the limited testing I did the AI's night vision without NVG's felt pretty OK to me. Running Vet with following

skillFriendly=0.69999999;

skillEnemy=0.69999999;

precisionFriendly=0.45999998;

precisionEnemy=0.45999998;

@Devs: Why can't we lower the skill lower than 0.70 in Veteran? Since I hate the glowing orbs on the side I prefer to play at Veterean and I don't see the logic that you cap the skill slider for different levels. Why not allow 0.00 - 1.00 for all levels?

/KC

Edited January 11, 2014 by KeyCat

[NeuroFunker 11]

NF are you sure some of the AI didn't had NVG's and it really was pitch black? Do you have a repro mission?

I ran some small tests a few nights ago and one AI without NVG's on a very dark night (ie no moon) was not able to see me until I was ~3 m infront of him and after he spotted me he then had hard time deciding if I was friend or foe so he did not engage me directly.

In another test I walked into a spotlight beam with the AI strait ahead and it wasn't until I was lit up by the lamps that he spotted me at ~45 meters.

Overall and with the limited testing I did the AI's night vision without NVG's felt pretty OK to me. Running Vet with following

skillFriendly=0.69999999;

skillEnemy=0.69999999;

precisionFriendly=0.45999998;

precisionEnemy=0.45999998;

@Devs: Why can't we lower the skill lower than above in Veteran? Since I hate the glowing orbs on the side I prefer to play at Veterean and I don't see the logic that you cap the skill slider for different levels. Why not allow 0.00 - 1.00 for all?

/KC

well, you can still make them less precise?

class veteran

{

class Flags

{

HUD=1;

HUDWp=1;

HUDWpPerm=1;

HUDGroupInfo=1;

AutoSpot=1;

WeaponCursor=0;

ClockIndicator=1;

3rdPersonView=1;

UltraAI=0;

CameraShake=1;

DeathMessages=1;

NetStats=1;

VonID=1;

ExtendetInfoType=0;

};

skillFriendly=0.81999987;

skillEnemy=0.81999987;

precisionFriendly=0.6759997;

precisionEnemy=0.6759997;

I run dev branch the last one before new year, mission was http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=205306913 "in to the fog", tested with a buddy. Ai skill to 80, friendly and enemy, veteran difficulty.

Situation: me and a buddy spoted a patrol, 2 man rebels no NVGs. I said to buddy stay on the hill and cover me, i'll try to sneak from behind and kill them. We were in the darkness, no lights nearby. All was well, i was behind them, crounching and walking slowly, closing the distance, and when i was like 10 meters behind them, one rebel in patrol who was behind the leader, got alreted out of no reason, gone prone then turned to my direction and started to shoot, luckely i managed to kill him and a buddy the second one. That felt damn awkard. Now further, we are closing to enemy camp, trying to go around it on the hills, in the darkness, when another patrol somehow spoted us on our hill being above us, at distance about 20 meters away, i'm sure they had no NVG's as well. And the more awkard thing, their accuracy at pitch black, just few shots landed and we both died. Such moments do really ruining whole fun in playing stealth.

Another mission, CO08 Saboteurs, on Stratis. We begin in ghilie suit, at night. Nato snipers, facing CSAT. There was a patrol of 2 CSAT man in NVG's walking on the dirt road towards our direction. We hid in the stones, to the left side of the road to ambush them. Waited untill they popped up to the right of us, and quickly killed them with slicenced weapons, we had vermin i think, all went well, them both died without making a shot. But here is the thing, there was a enemy camp like 100 meters away from us, when we kept were leaveing the stones behind us, we were attacked by soldiers standing at fireplace at camp, most of them, were facing their backs towards our direction. How the fuck may i ask? We were ghilies, at night, we both shot slienced weapons, we killed them quickly without allowing them to spot us or shoot at us. And they simply shoot us at niight, 100 meters away. There is obviously something wrong with AI hearing silencers and geting alarmed.

Today, on default branch. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=199824480 tango down mission. I'm shooting silenced MXM the guy on the left on cistern in dence fog. After i'm killing him, all fucking bots around geting alarmed, quickly spot me and shooting at me, very accurate ofcourse. For AI it doesn't matter at what conditions to shoot. Clear shiny weather, or deep night, dense fog. They so still shoot you very accurate, they spot you easy, they hear you and silenced weapons even at further distances. Obviosly there needs a lot of work on AI at night, AI and fog and AI and silencers.

I do really wish BI takes a look at this, and makes night stealth operation missions, more enjoyable and adequate.

Edited January 11, 2014 by NeuroFunker

[KeyCat 131]

Thanks for clarifying NeuroFunker will test "Into the Fog". Maybe it is the hearing that is to good and not their night vision?

BTW: It is possible to sneak up on a AI sentry if you slow crawl very slow from behind. Also note that you can not slow crawl with a pistol in your hand you must hold your rifle. If you do it right you can sneak up very close (<1 m) unless he turns.

well, you can still make them less precise?

You mean by manually editing the .cfg file?

/KC

[mkill73 0]

From steam forum:

Dwarden [developer] 10 Jan @ 5:20pm

enemies hard to kill is simply plain bug

first there was bug where the personal armor wasn't working

now the bug was fixed and the personal armor 'start to work' but it works too well (aka breaks existing balance configs)

so it's slowly fixed internally, some of it already in DEV and rest soon in DEV

sorry that it took 'longer' than instant to fix it

I just tried the DEV 1.09.114126 and the Ai problems is still there.

You need to put 5-6 shots in them before they die, please fix this.

[Alwarren 2766]

Thanks for clarifying NeuroFunker will test "Into the Fog". Maybe it is the hearing that is to good and not their night vision?

I wonder if environmental sounds are taken into account as well. Rain for example, or sea surf, would normally have an impact on hearing, as has a nearby truck or helicopter.

Also, does voice chatter like contact reports get noticed by the AI?

[NeuroFunker 11]

Thanks for clarifying NeuroFunker will test "Into the Fog". Maybe it is the hearing that is to good and not their night vision?

BTW: It is possible to sneak up on a AI sentry if you slow crawl very slow from behind. Also note that you can not slow crawl with a pistol in your hand you must hold your rifle. If you do it right you can sneak up very close (<1 m) unless he turns.

You mean by manually editing the .cfg file?

/KC

yeah editing config. Np, i wish to help in anyway to imrove AI to make it more pleaseable experience for me and community it self. I was walking slowly while kneeled, and i was speacial force and not a rookie, so my character should know how to step silently.

[KeyCat 131]

I wonder if environmental sounds are taken into account as well. Rain for example, or sea surf, would normally have an impact on hearing, as has a nearby truck or helicopter.

Also, does voice chatter like contact reports get noticed by the AI?

I'm pretty sure thats not the case.

However according to a post from a dev a while ago (Dwarden?) the AI will hear and react when we use direct speak if in proximity. Have not had the opportunity to test it myself but cool feature.

/KC

[Alwarren 2766]

I'm pretty sure thats not the case.

It should be really... it also affects players, and it would only be natural if it affects AI as well.

However according to a post from a dev a while ago (Dwarden?) the AI will hear and react when we use direct speak if in proximity. Have not had the opportunity to test it myself but cool feature.

I wonder if it was in Arma 2 already, because I had a situation once where the enemy turned around at the very moment someone reported them...

[KeyCat 131]

It should be really... it also affects players, and it would only be natural if it affects AI as well.

Agree.

I wonder if it was in Arma 2 already, because I had a situation once where the enemy turned around at the very moment someone reported them...

Me and a friend tested it without sucess but maybe it was added in later patches?

Noticed I had screenshots from the siple AI night vision test I mention above so here they are. In upper right corner you see the distance where I was detected...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ejbl5lvv6uusx60/AI%20Night%20Vision%2001.png

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8zkqm5tlc1pd5kh/AI%20Night%20Vision%2002.png

/KC

Edited January 13, 2014 by KeyCat
Added screenshot from AI night vision test.

[SaOk 112]

AI engineers have recently stucked to knee position without able to move, after repairing vehicle (in this case, small truck - drove to fence with team in cargo, ordered engineer out, to fix it and back to car, but didnt move no longer).

[NeuroFunker 11]

Agree.

Me and a friend tested it without sucess but maybe it was added in later patches?

Noticed I had screenshots from the siple AI night vision test I mention above so here they are. In upper right corner you see the distance where I was detected...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ejbl5lvv6uusx60/AI%20Night%20Vision%2001.png

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8zkqm5tlc1pd5kh/AI%20Night%20Vision%2002.png

/KC

how the uck, 2,5 meters? It was 20m+ for me with rebel guys at into the fog mission...

[Tyl3r99 41]

Agree.

Me and a friend tested it without sucess but maybe it was added in later patches?

Noticed I had screenshots from the siple AI night vision test I mention above so here they are. In upper right corner you see the distance where I was detected...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ejbl5lvv6uusx60/AI%20Night%20Vision%2001.png

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8zkqm5tlc1pd5kh/AI%20Night%20Vision%2002.png

/KC

I cant get 10m close to the AI lol

[KeyCat 131]

In above test I made sure it was pitch black (i.e heavy overcast) and no lights near. Could also be our settings that makes a difference... my settings are listed in post #1583.

Have not had a chance to test "Into the Fog" mission yet but hopefully soon ;)

/KC

[Guest Ti0n3r]

AI engineers have recently stucked to knee position without able to move, after repairing vehicle (in this case, small truck - drove to fence with team in cargo, ordered engineer out, to fix it and back to car, but didnt move no longer).

noticed the same thing with medics. hint; if you order the stuck unit to drop his primary weapon he will become unstuck.

[-Coulum- 35]

Belated Change log notes, v.113928

Adjusted: Dynamic Calculated Error for AI, working on turrets, reacting to loosing sight of target

• Generally the firefights and engagements should be more intense, enjoyable and less frustrating.
  
  
• The average AI should no longer give you a head-shot off-hand.
  
  
• AI gunners shouldn't be flawless top killing machines anymore.
  
  
• It definitely does not solve all the things (e.g. detection, decision making, recoil control), but at least it hopefully softens some of the problems.
  
  
• Please, spam us with your observations and feedback how has the battleground changed for you and whether it has improved the firefights, AI taking a shot, for you.
  
  

(thanks to those who've already provided some feedback; sorry latest updates have taken so long to post: we're getting back into the swing of things now)

Edit: there should be some further details we can share regarding Dynamic Calculated Error, but I need to check them out with our AI guru first!

After playing some coop this weekend I have reached a verdict:

Very good change. Pretty much does as it says it would. There are alot more "near misses" or "less lethal hits" which leads to less frustration and better firefights. As long as you place yourself in a good position (ie. where you can duck in and out of cover quickly) it is not often that the ai pegs you. And if you don't play it smart and are caught in the open you are screwed - like you should be.

Only once over the weekend was I "sniped" by the ai - Basically I heard one shot snap by and before I knew it I was dead. Ai were no less than 250 metres away. I also didn't have armour and had been carelessly exposing myself for a good 5 seconds or so, so... probably deserved it. Question is was the ai able to do this because I was an idiot or was it simply they got lucky when I happened to be an idiot. Just how dynamic is this dynamic error calculation? Looking forward to any further explanations.

It is a fair bit easier against ai if you play things safe, but overall more enjoyable. I think at certain times ai should make less error than others. But I am interested to know how it works now in more detail.

Good job devs.

[KeyCat 131]

Sounds good Column, looking forward to get back home to test. Do you mind sharing your settings?

/KC

[NeuroFunker 11]

Also about AI driving. Make a simple convoi mission, with say 4 cars. Tell them drive from A to Be anywhere you want, at least 1km. Set at waypoint combat mode "safe". Now take a look. Next try, at waypoint set combat mod "combat", and try now. No idea why is that, maybe for me only.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

• Firing the weapon no longer increases error; instead, it decreases the error or doesn't change it (depending on audio and visual attributes of the weapon).
  
• If the weapon is loud and very visible (e.g., an MG with big muzzle flash), the error doesn't decrease; whereas, shooting a normal rifle will decrease the error.
  

This doesn't make sense to me.

Why was it chosen that audio and visual properties of a weapon determine how much aiming error the AI has on consecutive shots? Would it not be saner to have config properties for this on the weapons and maybe a multiplier on the ammo/attachments instead of basing it off on audio and visual properties so you can tweak how the AI behaves without affecting the visibility of the weapon?

Currently as it's described, silent weapons will automatically make AI less prone to error and loud ones more. What happens in cases where you need to have a silent weapon with huge aiming error? Or a loud one with no aiming error? What if you actually want the AI to have worse aim when consecutively firing your weapon instead of the same or better?