AI Discussion (dev branch)

[sbua16 19]

Are there any plans to incorporate suppression into the AI? I feel as though at the moment shooting at the moment only serves one purpose, to kill the opposing team. Any shots that aren't directly on target seem pointless. It would be nice to know that if my team are getting rounds down range, these rounds are at least causing a negative effect on the AI in some way, whether it's decreased movement, or lowered accuracy/skill levels.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Sbua16

[dale0404 5]

Are there any plans to incorporate suppression into the AI? I feel as though at the moment shooting at the moment only serves one purpose, to kill the opposing team. Any shots that aren't directly on target seem pointless. It would be nice to know that if my team are getting rounds down range, these rounds are at least causing a negative effect on the AI in some way, whether it's decreased movement, or lowered accuracy/skill levels.

I like where your going with that buddy, would be nice to know.

[Masharra 10]

Are there any plans to incorporate suppression into the AI? I feel as though at the moment shooting at the moment only serves one purpose, to kill the opposing team. Any shots that aren't directly on target seem pointless. It would be nice to know that if my team are getting rounds down range, these rounds are at least causing a negative effect on the AI in some way, whether it's decreased movement, or lowered accuracy/skill levels.

And vice verse else your simply playing domination.

[oldy41 61]

And vice verse else your simply playing domination.

Right, unless you are talking about non-optional player suppression effects, which I would _not_appreciate.

(Leaning back waiting for heated exchange about player suppression - incoming... ;-) )

[jiltedjock 10]

Right, unless you are talking about non-optional player suppression effects, which I would _not_appreciate.

(Leaning back waiting for heated exchange about player suppression - incoming... ;-) )

Have you tried TPW suppression in Arma 2? The effects on the player work really well. I know where you are coming from, but sometimes on screen it is not obvious that rounds are impacting near you or cracking past you in the way that it would be in real life.

[Azzur33 1]

I also think the ai accuracy should be decreased, longer lasting firefights are more fun imo. The Ai should be quick to start firing though.

AI should be about as accurate as you. You are still able to hide and find cover more effectively, so you can survive against multiple enemy AI.

Longer lasting firefights are cool though, but they are about cover and supplessive fire, not poorly shooting soldiers.

Tweaking the behaviour of AI so that they are hiding enough and taking moderate risks when needed, being effective but fearing death also, while not being completely stuck behind cover - that may not be easy, but it would mean longer fights in a "natural way".

[Tyl3r99 41]

these following tickets need to be addressed...

AI related

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=12120

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=12105

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=12003

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=11998

[Shagulon 1]

I'd like to report a pretty big improvement in the AI in the few combined arms scenarios I managed to squeeze in tonight. The AI advance stood up and in good cover, then when in position and under fire would go prone - excellent. Anyone notice how the AI did in CO-OP? No time to check.

[oldy41 61]

Longer lasting firefights are cool though, but they are about cover and supplessive fire, not poorly shooting soldiers.

Tweaking the behaviour of AI so that they are hiding enough and taking moderate risks when needed, being effective but fearing death also, while not being completely stuck behind cover - that may not be easy, but it would mean longer fights in a "natural way".

This is actually a very good point in the discussion regarding AI accuray and reaction speed. Unfortunately, the last part is also true: This is much more complicated to implement than tweaking accuracy and speed.

[-Coulum- 35]

Thanks for clarifying this. What about bullets passing overhead? And audible shots fired?

Same question here, and if negative, is it being considered?

As Coulum correctly points out, the AI do not currently take distance of enemy into account when selecting stances when moving/moving to cover. However, it should be possible to change this behaviour, and tweak the values so that when enemies are closer, e.g. CQB, they are less likely to go prone.

Yay!

I'll dig out some revisions via Dr Hladik, but the current goal/target state is to have AI taking crouch/prone while stationary and under fire (so that they are more difficult to hit)

I'm probably reading to far into things but does this mean we may see a suppression system like in tpw ai suppress? Ie. put a few rounds passed an ai and he ducks down regardless of combat mode, nearby LOS blocking cover etc. ...

Longer lasting firefights are cool though, but they are about cover and supplessive fire, not poorly shooting soldiers.

While agree that the real problems are cover usage, I believe reducing accuracy of ai under fire is also good and realistic. This is because soldiers under stress are less likely to take the time to line up accurate shots, as it is higher priority to be quick and not expose yourself too long. Even in arma players under heavy fire will often return less accurate fire because they are trying to make their shots quick so they can duck back to safety. I can only imagine this is even more of a factor in real life. How accurate someone's shots are in real life is highly dependent on what going on around him. Ai however have very static aiming, and whether they are under extreme stress or no stress at all they shoot with the same accuracy and speed.

Anyhow long story short, I think that decreasing ai accuracy under fire is a good idea assuming it is done properly.

[sbua16 19]

And vice verse else your simply playing domination.

Yes, and no. I mean with good sound design we should be feeling the effects of being shot at just by the loudness of the bullet cracks as they go by, or by dust being kicked up around you. I don't think, however, that the sound design is quite there yet, and you can't really tell, as you can in real life, whether the bullet passing is close or not. So I think we could settle for some minor effects, nothing too intrusive. A little extra weapon sway from the player, possibly the darkening of the edges of the screen. But I digress (back to the topic if AI). Suppression of the AI would add a VERY MUCH needed layer of tactics that I think ArmA and OFP before it have been sorely missing.

TPW suppression and mods like it have done an excellent job of creating the effect, but I feel they lack the polish that only BIS could deliver. So please, BIS, I implore you, we implore you, make shooting at the enemy useful again, give us some suppression. Because otherwise it's just another turkey shoot, and not an actual fire fight.... I could only guess at the coolness of seeing an AI squad being pinned behind cover as we advance on their position, and can only imagine the feeling of trepidation as a squad of my own lays flat on the ground struggling to return fire because of the barrage of incoming bullets. Real fire fights at last.

[pushbak 2]

I love ARMA 3. It's basically my favorite game. Alpha and Beta are filled with people that love the ARMA series. We know all the joys despite the AI problems and we'll continue to play the game no matter what. But the enemy AI not behaving like people under fire, and being uncannily accurate (feels like fighting cyborgs most of the time) I think will be a big turn off for people who don't absolutely love this game like we do.

I've had friends come over and try ARMA 3 alpha/beta on my machine, cause they see me playing it all the time and are like 'wow that game must be like crack, must be good' and they see my screenshots and they're excited. But within seconds of coming into contact with the enemy AI their enthusiasm just dies. They feel cheated by AI that feels like it's aim-botting and doesn't care that it's being shot at. So I sheepishly grin and say "well I still love it cause even with the weird AI behavior it's just amazing in all these ways" , and I list off the endless times when random AI behavior was awesome, and talk about all the other cool features, but in the end they can't get past that initial first impression of feeling "cheated" by overly deadly AI shooting.

Anyways, I guess this is just an anecdote about trying to grow the game past the current player base. In some ways I guess it's good that there is a barrier to entry that keeps out the casuals, but at the same time it seems a shame that a lot of people sitting on the fence about ARMA 3 won't get past that hurdle. The top 3 things that make the ARMA series problematic in terms of getting more players is: the amount of controls and key binds, clunky movement, and overly deadly AI.

What does this mean? ...well... the amount of keys needed should never go away (if you love ARMA this needs no further explanation), and other then being locked into place by certain animations (changing weapons in particular) the clunkiness has been addressed (I think movement and firing is the best it's EVER been in the series).. but the enemy AI behavior needs the most attention imo.

It's cool seeing all the really smart posts in this thread. Anything that makes firefights feel more 'real' sounds good to me.

[Masharra 10]

The reduction of ai accuracy is both a pro and a con.

Pro because it is realistic.

Con because it is gamey.

Why gamey?

I would say I am a shit player and I behave quite realistically when under fire.(namely because of the no-respawn/no-revive gameplay I enjoy) I want to LIVE

Some of the better players I have observed dont really head to cover, they place extremely accurate medium/long range shots from exactly where they stand(albeit taking a knee or prone for accuracy).

Ai suppression without player suppression will become a turkey shoot.

Unless player accuracy is also reduced ai accuracy shouldnt be reduced under suppression.

Why?

What is the main reason people take cover from arma ai? (from range) They can shoot the mole off your nuttsack.

Remove that and we have no real reason to fear(unless you play similar game modes and even then it is reduced)

The vying for fire supremacy without actually seeing the target is something that I have rarely seen in arma(correction I see it Tuesdays/Sundays/Thursdays :D) outside of those days not really. Even mg fire is extremely accurate.

I can only imagine what suppressible ai would be like in regards to respawn/revive missions.

Actually I think this come back to what that person somewhere in the past pages has said. They need to be taught some of the basics first. Without some of those basics, things like ai suppression, are more of a crutch on the player than the ai.

To paraphrase a conversation between a great leader and a mg from one of our sessions.

Rifleman- Underfire!

SL- MG Suppress!

MG- I cant see them

SL- Shoot east

MG- I dont see anyone.

SL- You dont need to see. Just send bullets that direction and thats enough.

The ONLY thing the ai has is its accuracy right now.

It can not fire blindly at sound sources, it does not know how to lay ambushes, I doubt it can even try to conceal itself with smoke.

Before we kick the retarded kid in the shins how about we send him to infantry school first? Can I say retarded kid?

Edited July 31, 2013 by Masharra

[-Coulum- 35]

Yeah I can see where your coming from Masharra, without the accuracy the ai are going to be even worse and less of a threat (to the player). And I too have seen players that calmly line up shots just as the ai do while under fire.

But I still don't think a suppression system for player is needed to balance this out. If every time a shot goes by, the ai is inaccurate for just a few seconds and then turns back to full pinpoint accuracy, there will still be plenty of reason to be scared. There will be a lot of pressure to keep up suppressive fire because the second you don't you will be hit if you are exposed. Even if there are no suppression effects for player, calmly lining up a shot will not be as common because it is better to quickly get a inaccurate shot down range and stay alive rather than take your time and get a face full of lead because the ai is unsuppressed and shooting at full accuracy.

People are going to want to lower the ai accuracy anyways, might as well do it in a dynamic and realistic way (through suppression) rather than do what has been the goto method for arma and decrease their accuracy across the board.

Using tpw suprpess with slightly different skill modification system (large decreases in accuracy that only last a few seconds rather than small decreases that last a long period of time) I found firefights in arma 2 to be very fun, realistic and challenging, even without player suppression.

[liquidpinky 11]

You guys must be playing on servers set to nursery school difficulty, or maybe just a server with a crap CPU.

Any game I have played recently, if you dont get behind cover after you hear the first bullet crack(very audible on my cheap sehnheisser headphones BTW, I dont need no blur to tell me I am about to die) then you very rarely hear a second.

Then wait for revive.

Lets not turn sorting out AI into some hidden agenda for the pro suppression camp please.

[metalcraze 290]

Masharra is right in that AI needs to learn to suppress. And why it's critical especially now. Here's why:

The increased error for finding player's position after he made a kill brought out a new huge issue with AI (that was there, but now it has taken the front seat).

Unless AI knows where you are they do not even try to look in the direction of where shots are coming from, just randomly run around from cover to cover never facing the correct direction.

This now leads to some rather bad exploits. You can lay down 400m away from AI in the grass and start pounding them with MXM and you can wipe out whole fireteams without them ever spotting you.

This is not to say that changes do more harm than good. They did nothing but good. But they are not done. AI MUST face the direction where shots are coming from and AI MUST learn the concept of a suppressive fire to survive this.

Even if AI just looks into the correct direction chances of AI spotting an enemy are increased drastically. That's what humans do after all - they start looking for an enemy not run around in panic.

And even better if AI starts sending bullets randomly in the direction where he thinks shots are coming from - chances are he would make an enemy, especially a human enemy stop shooting. And that's survivability++

[Tyl3r99 41]

i can still run around the enemy and he cannot kill me.

and if you stand right on top of him then he cant shoot you anyway so you win

[Variable 322]

You guys must be playing on servers set to nursery school difficulty

And then:

Then (I) wait for revive

LOL :biggrin:

Lets not turn sorting out AI into some hidden agenda for the pro suppression camp please.

An infantry game without suppression is not an infantry game. Therefore sorting the AI out = adding suppression. The question whether to apply it on the player is a different one, that I agree.

[EDcase 87]

I think there is a lot of confusion here because the AI difficulty varies depending on the server and mission settings.

So everyone will have different experiences of AI. We need to make sure to use only the built-in missions to compare.

[chortles 263]

I would suggest that the difference is that in most FPS games (and thus how it often comes up here) suppression for players is defined as visual/audio and in-game-mechanics effects, and that is the reason that Liquidpinky brought that up... I don't believe that anyone was calling for that to be applied to AI! :D

[Variable 322]

I'm probably reading to far into things but does this mean we may see a suppression system like in tpw ai suppress? Ie. put a few rounds passed an ai and he ducks down regardless of combat mode, nearby LOS blocking cover etc. ...

Too bad it looks like that Arma AI considers to be "Under Fire" only when bullets impact his body, or objects (mostly ground) next to him.

[Tyl3r99 41]

so what does this "Super AI" actually do?

i have 3 settings to change AI Skill/difficulty... why is there 3?????

1. unit skill bar

2. difficulty slide bar

3. Super AI.

Surely 3 isnt needed if BI are tweaking AI???

seems confusing if you ask me.

so the skill slide bar in the editor does what?

difficulty slide bar does what?

super ai does what?

do they do different things?

[sbua16 19]

so what does this "Super AI" actually do?

i have 3 settings to change AI Skill/difficulty... why is there 3?????

1. unit skill bar

2. difficulty slide bar

3. Super AI.

Surely 3 isnt needed if BI are tweaking AI???

seems confusing if you ask me.

so the skill slide bar in the editor does what?

difficulty slide bar does what?

super ai does what?

do they do different things?

I believe Super AI overrides all other settings and simply places all AI skill levels to Max. I don't think there's really an occasion where it would be useful to actually use the Super AI option, it simply makes things overly difficult and seems kind of redundant (since we can simply move the sliders ourselves).

The Difficulty changes a number of different things, it changes the AI skill level, their Accuracy, and toggles certain UI features, such as group info, HUD way-points, Enemy and Friendly tags, and what not. Of course these can all (except AI accuracy, for some reason we only have access to that in the user config) be changed manually regardless of what difficulty you are on.

The Unit skill bar dictates the skill level of individual units and works in conjunction with the overall AI skill level.

edit:

There is one thing that has bothered me for years, and that is the 'friendly' and 'enemy' criteria for skill levels. I don't know if it's bothered anyone else but I always wished they were split into 'Blufor' and 'Opfor'. This was only really apparent when I was playing [ARMA2's] operation arrowhead, and playing around with missions between takistan militia and US troops. When switching between playing between the two perspectives I'd always have to go into the options a swap the skill levels around to better represent the skill levels of each side. It's only a minor gripe, and one I've not seen mentioned before so it's probably not one everyone shares. Just thought I'd mention it.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Sbua16

[Sniperwolf572 758]

so what does this "Super AI" actually do?

i have 3 settings to change AI Skill/difficulty... why is there 3?????

1. unit skill bar

2. difficulty slide bar

3. Super AI.

Surely 3 isnt needed if BI are tweaking AI???

seems confusing if you ask me.

so the skill slide bar in the editor does what?

difficulty slide bar does what?

super ai does what?

do they do different things?

Unit skill bar is the mission designers choice for that unit.

I'm not 100% sure what the difficulty slide bar does, but i'm assuming it's the coefficient depending if hostile or friendly, so skill = (mission defined unit skill * difficulty slide skill)

Super AI makes all above irrelevant and just maxes out the AI skills to 1 no matter what.

[Masharra 10]

I should clarify I dont exactly want players to have suppression effects as I believe getting shot at is good enough reason to be suppressed. I mainly dont want it with ai that has no way of defending itself. TPWcas is great but I prefer it with something that makes units either drop smoke or units Rush to cover. They have some means of defending themselves/impairing the attacker.

The struggle for fire superiority is the reason we carry mg's and have a spare guy or more carry ammo for him. When attacking or being attacked he is the GO_TO guy to make things change. When suppressed he is supposed to achieve fire superiority with his brothers over the suppressors. Thus suppressing them. It becomes more than just shooting at each other. For the player it changes from "yea we got this" to "shit do I need my attacking team to assist in suppression instead of flanking?" For the AI it goes from "Incoming get to cover gain fire superiority to splitting group into two one attack/flanks and one suppresses"

Wishful thinking on my part but that whole scenario can build up to squad on squad battles to whole armies duking it out over the whole of altis because one squad said "shit we are pinned down request assistance at XXXXXX"