Weapon Sway Tweaking

[-Coulum- 35]

The new weapon sway system is one of my favourite features in arma 3. I believe it makes long range shooting more interesting and makes firefights develop more realistically. So the other day I took the time to thoroughly test how weapon sway effects my in game ability - not so much accuracy wise, but rather how long it takes me to line up a shot and fight the sway (without holding breath). I tested at 5 different ranges with all three stances and here are my results as well as a vid showing my last "round" of shooting.

Approx. Time Taken to Hit after Target is Visible in Scope. (Based on 10-15 tests a of each stance/range combination, no breath holding)

[TABLE=class: grid, width: 500, align: left]

[TR]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Prone[/TD]

[TD]Crouched[/TD]

[TD]Standing[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]100m[/TD]

[TD]<1 sec[/TD]

[TD]<1 sec[/TD]

[TD]<1 sec[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]200m[/TD]

[TD]<1 sec[/TD]

[TD]1-2 sec[/TD]

[TD]2-3sec[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]300m[/TD]

[TD]1 sec[/TD]

[TD]2-4 sec[/TD]

[TD]2-5 sec[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]400m[/TD]

[TD]1-2sec[/TD]

[TD]4-7 sec[/TD]

[TD]8-12 sec[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]500m[/TD]

[TD]1-3 sec[/TD]

[TD]6-10 sec[/TD]

[TD]11-16 sec[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

I find collecting statistics like this to be a good way of fleshing out problems and tweaking things. In this particular case I learned that crouched sway is actually much easier to control than standing (contrary to what I had believed) and that prone sway is really a non factor. Based on my results, I have some suggestions concerning weaponsway. Actually mainly one: Prone weapon sway needs to be increased. I believe this for 4 reasons:

• Balance - all the other stances take concentration and time to line up shots especially at around 300m+ Prone does not take any whatsoever for targets under 700m.
  
• Reality - If anyone is able to line up shots with 100% accuracy at 500m (damn far) in under 3 seconds please disagree. But I don't think this is representative of the average grunt's ability.
  
• Snipers - Snipers are far to easy to use. shots at 1km are no big deal. Increasing prone sway is just one way to combat this.
  
• Breath holding - In reality breath control while prone increases accuracy as it does in all stances. In arma however breath control does absolutely nothing to improve accuracy because prone is already "as accurate as it gets". This takes alot of fun out sniping because there is no need to hold breath while taking a shot.
  

Anyhow that is my biggest "suggestion" regarding weapon sway. I know alot of people will have very different opinions than mine. I am interested to hear what everyone else thinks about sway and what should be done to tweak it to perfection.

Edited October 15, 2013 by -Coulum-

[chortles 263]

... yeah, I'm going to disagree with you there, I found it absolutely necessary to hold breath for any shot at distance in any stance, prone included.

[gatordev 215]

I might be a little more tolerant of the weapon sway if it was rhythmic, but as it is now, it's completely random. Not only that, it wanders when I'm not moving. I'll be laying prone, put the cross hair on a point several hundred meters away and then just sit there and let it move. It will actually move up at least one to two mils, if not more. It will eventually come down a little bit, but not all the way back down, and still hold at least a mil high or more. In real life, I can lie prone and supported and keep my reticule within half-mil area, assuming I have enough optic to still see the target.

If the game had it where the sway was more rhythmic, like with breathing, or it returned "across" the original point of aim while it swayed, I think it would be better. Even with ACE, the sway was random, but it's not as severe, so you can live with it and hold your breath when you need to.

For me, if recoil is going to stay the way it is, then I think sway needs to come down. If sway is going to stay the way it is, then recoil needs to come down.

[fujix 11]

Both recoil and sway are overdone currently and need to be toned down.

Revert to A2 recoil which was perfect imo. Also yes, the sway is not only to much its random aswell :/

[lordprimate 159]

The new weapon sway system is one of my favourite features in arma 3. I believe it makes long range shooting more interesting and makes firefights develop more realistically. So the other day I took the time to thoroughly test how weapon sway effects my in game ability - not so much accuracy wise, but rather how long it takes me to line up a shot and fight the sway (without holding breath). I tested at 5 different ranges with all three stances and here are my results as well as a vid showing my last "round" of shooting.

Approx. Time Taken to Hit after Target is Visible in Scope. (Based on 10-15 tests a of each stance/range combination, no breath holding)

[TABLE=class: grid, width: 500, align: left]

[TR]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Prone[/TD]

[TD]Crouched[/TD]

[TD]Standing[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]100m[/TD]

[TD]<1 sec[/TD]

[TD]<1 sec[/TD]

[TD]<1 sec[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]200m[/TD]

[TD]<1 sec[/TD]

[TD]1-2 sec[/TD]

[TD]2-3sec[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]300m[/TD]

[TD]1 sec[/TD]

[TD]2-4 sec[/TD]

[TD]2-5 sec[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]400m[/TD]

[TD]1-2sec[/TD]

[TD]4-7 sec[/TD]

[TD]8-12 sec[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]500m[/TD]

[TD]1-3 sec[/TD]

[TD]6-10 sec[/TD]

[TD]11-16 sec[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

I find collecting statistics like this to be a good way of fleshing out problems and tweaking things. In this particular case I learned that crouched sway is actually much easier to control than standing (contrary to what I had believed) and that prone sway is really a non factor. Based on my results, I have some suggestions concerning weaponsway. Actually mainly one: Prone weapon sway needs to be increased. I believe this for 4 reasons:

• Balance - all the other stances take concentration and time to line up shots especially at around 300m+ Prone does not take any whatsoever for targets under 700m.
  
• Reality - If anyone is able to line up shots with 100% accuracy at 500m (damn far) in under 3 seconds please disagree. But I don't think this is representative of the average grunt's ability.
  
• Snipers - Snipers are far to easy to use. shots at 1km are no big deal. Increasing prone sway is just one way to combat this.
  
• Breath holding - In reality holding breath while prone increases accuracy as it does in all stances. In arma however breath control does absolutely nothing to improve accuracy because prone is already "as accurate as it gets". This takes alot of fun out sniping because there is no need to hold breath while taking a shot.
  

Anyhow that is my biggest "suggestion" regarding weapon sway. I know alot of people will have very different opinions than mine. I am interested to hear what everyone else thinks about sway and what should be done to tweak it to perfection.

Hell NO... Weapon sway needs to be reduced and completly removed when prone.. I am sorry I strongly dissagre. when i am prone shooting a gun .. there is NO weapon sway.. I am PRONE.. my body and gun are stabilized on the ground.. there is NO sway..

Further more with the weapon Resting mod that has been released, I reiterate that the sway needs to be able to be Reduced when you have a weapon Rested on a surface.. How can a weapon sway so exaggeratedly, when its placed against a Solid Object.. like i said I strongly disagree. And i really pray that BIS doesn't increase this BS weapon sway.. It maybe easy for you to hit people.. I can right click all i want the sway is barely reduced and I spend most of my time dead because i just cant F'n hit a target "Standing Still" while I am prone.. Because of ... Weapon sway.. I think the weapon sway is absurdly chaotic, and needs some serious refining!!!

On the subject of snipers, What really needs to be implemented is proper wind simulation, making long shots more dependent on skill.. Rather then dumb luck in trying to get your crosshairs to hold steady for a sec.. Proper wind and friction simulation will be better then masking the issue with some BS weapon sway that in reality wouldnt occur.. Snipers dont F round with sway.. They use Bipods, and other aim steadying objects to firm up their barrel in order to get that shot.. adding weapon sway to locked down sniper rifle is unrealistic.. Adding proper wind and friction simulation would solve the issue, with super accurate snipers..

Edited June 27, 2013 by Lordprimate

[ghostnineone 10]

I hate the scope sway, trying to

hit far away targets is annoying, especially if they are prone and laying halfway in a hill, holding your breath barely helps as you get maybe one shot and then the terrible sway becomes even worse. I shouldn't have to waste a ton of rounds in prone or sniper sit and outline a guys body. If the scope would just sway less I might actually be able to kill a guy in a reasonable amount of time. The sway does not help when you are in a firefight since it can take so long to get shots that actually kill someone because of the scope sway + the stress aim shake thing. Wounding an enemy does nothing, they will keep shooting, and they are not affected one bit by the rounds landing inches next to them. Having to spend any length of time exposed is enough to kill you (especially with those insta kills the AI get) so having to spend 15+ seconds trying to kill the guy you know you can kill if your guy would have taken his Parkinson's meds this morning is not only irritating, it will easily get you killed. It's even more irritating if you are in a fight with an entire squad, so now you are exposed for 15 seconds to 6 people trying to kill you.

[madeineano 15]

Played since Arma 1,still playing Arma 2,but with the weapons sway and the fatigue system in Arma 3 I cannot hit a barn door at 200 meters ..no joke :)

[Anachoretes 10]

Scope is always sway. If you make him not swaying IRL to tired up very quickly. Arma 2 have old and simple system, but this was offset by a rubber control.

[afp 1]

Once I belived the same and it may be true, but after playing long Arma missions 2-3-4 hours you realise that a strong sway is an unnecessary stress. The way it is now it's somehow unbalanced, it's too strong when you try to hit a close target and too soft for distance targets, compared to real. This may be because of field of view, not sure, and probably nothing to do about it. Plus, it should be no sway when you have weapon rest, in crouch position you may also have weapon rest http://imageshack.us/a/img6/6311/riflepositionkneeling.jpg

Edited June 27, 2013 by afp

[Anachoretes 10]

I agree to decrease recoil but only in one case.

If we loosing stamina during firing(depending from stance of course). Why? People said that we play like soldier and we know how to shoot properly. Yes. But weapon reproduce are force, so the soldier use some counterforce. And this cost energy. Also we probably have resting\mantling\etc. system which benefit against recoil(or stamina).

But, if recoil would be decreased, and we will get weapon resting probability, so what's(or better where) the "gameplay" point?

---------- Post added at 03:36 ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 ----------

in crouch position you may also have weapon rest http://imageshack.us/a/img6/6311/rif...onkneeling.jpg

This is real resting pose . In high crouch you sitting on your foot, also stabilize the body. So when you up to run - it is always have problem. Even in nice Corcoran or Mil-tec boots. But in game, by the way, this poses reduce recoil.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Anachoretes

[ghostnineone 10]

There really should be almost zero sway while prone, that's the entire purpose of firing prone, and the sniper sit should have very little as well because of how many contact points there are and how little your muscles have to work.

[-Coulum- 35]

Hehe! yep I expected there would be alot of people against sway in general, let alone my suggestion to increase it. I was actually hesitant to start this thread for fear that it might actually convince the devs to decrease sway. I just have a couple of questions for ye because I want to get a better understanding of why you are against the sway

• Do you think that the sway creates unrealistic situations or do you just dislike it as a game feature, regardless of if it is more or less realistic?
  
• Do you guys have similar results in a firing range type situation as I in the video or are you really "unable to hit a barn at 200m" (I find that hard to believe)?
  
• Do you guys try to fight the sway or do you make small adjustments and wait for the sway to bring you on target?
  
• What is a reasonable amount of time to hit a target? How "should" my above table be filled out?
  

yeah, I'm going to disagree with you there, I found it absolutely necessary to hold breath for any shot at distance in any stance, prone included.

Hmm... where as I can't even fathom how prone is hard at all. At 700 metres with a 12x yes of course then things are hectic but they should be. But at 300m are you serious that you can't reliably and quickly hit? I don't even consider my self much of a gamer outside of arma - are you telling me you can't do what I did in the vid in prone at 500m without holding breath or taking more than a few seconds?

If the scope would just sway less I might actually be able to kill a guy in a reasonable amount of time. The sway does not help when you are in a firefight since it can take so long to get shots that actually kill someone because of the scope sway + the stress aim shake thing. Wounding an enemy does nothing, they will keep shooting, and they are not affected one bit by the rounds landing inches next to them. Having to spend any length of time exposed is enough to kill you (especially with those insta kills the AI get) so having to spend 15+ seconds trying to kill the guy you know you can kill if your guy would have taken his Parkinson's meds this morning is not only irritating, it will easily get you killed. It's even more irritating if you are in a fight with an entire squad, so now you are exposed for 15 seconds to 6 people trying to kill you.

I totally agree with you on the ai. If shooting near an ai actually had an effect on them (they lose fire discipline and shoot less accurately, or actually duck behind cover) having sway wouldn't be as bad because you don't actually have to get a direct hit to have an effect. Same goes vs. players imo but that's a different topic.

I don't think there is any "stress aim shake thing" however...

I might be a little more tolerant of the weapon sway if it was rhythmic

Yeah good point. The sway doesn't follow a fixed figure eight pattern or anything. That being said there are distinctive "swings" that can be seen, tracked and predicted. That's the only way I am able to hit in the above vid in the higher stances. In prone however there is no need for that.

when i am prone shooting a gun .. there is NO weapon sway.. I am PRONE.. my body and gun are stabilized on the ground.. there is NO sway..

I say this with no mean to offend or condescend to you: is that based on real life shooting experience? I am no professional shooter but from my limited experiences on the range, I disagree. Yes the ground stabilizes the gun quite a bit. But your body is never perfectly stable. This is due to a number of things. One is your breathing forces movement throughout your body. Another is your muscles aren't always able to hold themselves steady especially when they are fatigued. This means as soon as you touch the gun you will make it less stable due to your bodies own imperfections, no matter how small. In prone you don't have to use many of your muscles to support your stance (legs, abdomen, back,) so it is more stable then shooting standing or crouched. But it isn't perfectly 100% stable. If it were there would be no need to teach

. In real life, when I relax and don't try to compensate for my bodies movements and breath, I can actually see my sights slowly rising up and down due to breathing, and jitter due to my cheek weld loosening and my alignment being compromised.

If you have experience shooting I also ask how quickly and accurately you hit targets at 500m from the prone position. To reliably hit at that range I have to slow down to around a shot every 6-7 seconds, and even then I miss. Obviously from my vid this isn't the case in game. With iron sights I actually go faster but I miss much more because my eyes simply aren't good enough to even recognize how off target I am. This is something also to consider: What may look like zero sway to you might actually result in a couple of feet off target at long range when you are just eyeballing it. The slightest movement or twitch can throw you off target at long range. Hell it took me forever to learn to pull the trigger properly without throwing off long shots and even now I am not perfect if I don't properly mentally prep myself first (which takes time).

[Anachoretes 10]

Zero sway in my practice in prone was only on bipod or sandbag(or crumpled park). Shooting from elbow still produce some sway. Besides, you're "breathing with the buttstock"(and that is rhytmic).

[-Coulum- 35]

Zero sway in my practice in prone was only on bipod or sandbag(or crumpled park). Shooting from elbow still produce some sway. Besides, you're "breathing with the buttstock"(and that is rhytmic).

Yes exactly. When you breathe your chest/expands raising you up ever so slightly. Since you're ideally holding the buttstock to your body, that movement transfers into the gun. I know it may not sound like much but at 500 metres that is enough to throw you off target. In arma 3 500m prone is a done deal on a stationary exposed target, and in only a couple of seconds no less.

[ghostnineone 10]

Hehe! yep I expected there would be alot of people against sway in general, let alone my suggestion to increase it. I was actually hesitant to start this thread for fear that it might actually convince the devs to decrease sway. I just have a couple of questions for ye because I want to get a better understanding of why you are against the sway

• Do you think that the sway creates unrealistic situations or do you just dislike it as a game feature, regardless of if it is more or less realistic?
  
• Do you guys have similar results in a firing range type situation as I in the video or are you really "unable to hit a barn at 200m" (I find that hard to believe)?
  
• Do you guys try to fight the sway or do you make small adjustments and wait for the sway to bring you on target?
  
• What is a reasonable amount of time to hit a target? How "should" my above table be filled out?

1. The former, the amount of sway can make it much too difficult to hit a target. It's harder to hit people while you are getting shot at and making quick adjustments to not die. Plus hitting someone behind any kind of cover like rocks, or them being sunk into the hillside is annoying normally, and frustratingly difficult at times with the weapon sway, dispersion and fatigue/suppression shake. I'm relatively new to PC gaming so I'm not totally used to using a mouse, but I played a lot of arma 2 and have been playing shooters my entire life, so I don't think I suck completely at this game.

2. I've never really analyzed it, but I know my times are not like that when I am actually playing missions.

3. Usually I can't wait it out or I'll die, I normally either try and fight the sway, or just take cover until i can steady my aim again (rinse repeat). It depend's on how far away they are and how imminent my demise is.

4. I have no idea, it would all depend on the person.

I don't think there is any "stress aim shake thing" however...

I'm pretty sure there is, if you are under heavy fire or shots land close to you your aim will start to shake a lot. I'm almost positive that it's a feature, possibly the suppression effect.

[Anachoretes 10]

that movement transfers into the gun.

Btw, when you prone this effect minimized because buttstock in another angle to shoulder.

[St. Jimmy 272]

I think the weapon sway is good, no need to decrease it. We just need better weapon resting and bipods.

[ghostnineone 10]

I recorded a video of what the sway is like in the three basic stances without touching my mouse, except for once at the end when I had to fix the sight for prone. It should be uploaded eventually.

here it is, the full quality vid would have taken hours to upload.

Edited June 27, 2013 by ghostnineone

[Anachoretes 10]

here it is, the full quality vid would have taken hours to upload.

Its normal swaying. Even too simple.

Decreasing sway. Decreasing recoil. Decreasing stamina. Decreasing AI. Where am I? :)

[ghostnineone 10]

I don't think that's normal swaying, it should not sway that far away from center of mass. It's moving like he ran a marathon. Normal breathing should sway in a figure 8, that's not a figure 8. It's more like he's trying to draw something. There are random moments of almost normal breathing but then there are big deviations for no reason really, there is also a random deviation in prone where he lifts his gun up for no reason. He must be scratching his ass.

[Anachoretes 10]

It swaying on you left hand because you not are statue. Just try do it itself. You would be surprise. And i repeat - its a very small sway. If you not looking in the scope you even don't recognize it.

[ghostnineone 10]

It swaying on you left hand because you not are statue. Just try do it itself. You would be surprise. And i repeat - its a very small sway. If you not looking in the scope you even don't recognize it.

I have done it before, I have never had sway like that unless I started waving my rifle around. The holo/red dot sights/irons have a lot less sway. In my opinion the sway for magnified optics is pretty ridiculous. I don't think this is one of those issues that just comes down to "lol get better noob". I think that even though it's still possible to play the game with the sway and recoil and AI the way they are, doesn't mean that they couldn't use some tweaking. I don't mind scope sway, but in my opinion it doesn't look realistic and it needs tweaking unless BI implements weapon resting or some other alternative.

[lordprimate 159]

my statement was exaggerated to say the least, I am trying to make a point. I guess i have the same fear, of the devs Increasing this already wildly exaggerated weapon sway. I do have some experience shooting all be it along while ago. I know holding a gun perfectly still is impossible, However.. Prone. your sway is way more toned down and controllable, threw breathing rhythm and style (with your diaphragm instead of your chest...). The sway while prone is far from this and is even more exaggerated when moving to an erect position. I most certinaly hold fast in that i feel the weapon sway in Arma 3 is wildly exaggerated and erratic.

[twisted 127]

Zero sway in my practice in prone was only on bipod or sandbag(or crumpled park). Shooting from elbow still prohduce some sway. Besides, you're "breathing with the buttstock"(and that is rhytmic).

Absolutely. Also great post by op. Sway is well represented and the hold breath button has a place now. All bis need do is implement a weapon resting including bipods and it'll be awesome.

Edit. What'd be great if sway can also reflect weight/size of the gun. So bigger ones sway more.

[afp 1]

Two kinds of people in this thread already, those who want less sway and those who want more. What I can say is that sway is easily moddable, so you can try your own ideas about it. Tried that is the past, I modified the sway to what I considered to be realistic and the game became frustrating when playing long missions. Too difficult to target, had to prone at most of the long shots, the gameplay became not more realistic but less fun. Just like the recoil, there are things that induce less stress in real then fixing them with mouse movement.