Fatigue effects

[Fuse 1]

Of course this is all assuming you want total. realism. Some people do not and I understand that.

I have no problem being handicapped in the game if I push too hard. What I don't want is it to be done in a way that looks bad and/or causes me actual physical discomfort. I don't really understand why anyone would have a problem with that.

Sure, ideally I'll never run that much and never see it, so the fact that it actually makes me physically ill and unable to continue functioning shouldn't matter. Ideally we'd never get shot either, so let's start making a USB device that stabs you when it happens. :)

[liquidpinky 11]

Remove the blur.

Increase the black border effect when exhausted.

Remove the ability to hold breath when tired.

Remove the ability to zoom when exhausted.

Walk forced when exhausted.

Maintain weapon sway.

Add a heartbeat sound, louder as more exhausted you become.

Fatigue recovery rate decreased when exhausted.

Fatigue recovery rate decreased when overloaded.

Little reduction on the fatigue increase rate when sprinting.

What about that on fatigue?

Weight (need tweaks all across the board?) and encumberance affecting other things, don't know if it is doable (due engine or time constrains) and should be discussed on a different thread.

All of the above is okay except forced walk, I would demand it for all the lightweights as well to stop them running around like COD kiddies.

Although it probably wouldn't effect me much as I maintain decent disipline when overloaded and will only use combat jog pace unless I need to get to cover quickly.

I would request that the slow jog is still available for those who can remain diciplined and like to stroll to the objective on their own time.

[arma3dude777 10]

To put my percpective in, the amount of weight should effect everything, the blur,harder breathing,etc. Running with weight will slow your top speed in real life drastically.

[Smurf 12]

All of the above is okay except forced walk, I would demand it for all the lightweights as well to stop them running around like COD kiddies.

Of course. As soon they're exhausted, like everybody else. This is not related to weight, rather is about the fatigue level.

Quick mockup of what I mean, out of scale.

You are encouraged to stay in the yellow part, push to the red if necessary, black area only when things go really wrong. Thoughts?

[doveman 7]

I just find the wheezing sound effects after jogging a short while really annoying. Sounds like I've got emphysema!

[St. Jimmy 272]

Looking good Smurf.

[Variable 322]

Looks good to me smurf.

[metalcraze 290]

Smurf's suggestion is good. But we need forced walk when too much weight.

What Smurf suggests won't prevent AM SR + Launcher + Backpack with rockets combo. Launchers are fire and forget and sniper rifle is too stable in prone and has no weight plus it has zeroing and lacks wind effects. Sway and blur will not stop a missile from locking on on a vehicle and very much laser precision sniper rifle will hit the target from prone regardless.

People who protest forced walk when carrying 60 kgs in a backpack obviously want to carry an extremely cheat-load like that.

[fujix 11]

Looking good Smurf.

Really anything from what we have now is better. Try not to add visual effects to simulate fatigue. Only gameplay changing effects, like increased weapon sway, slower movement etc.

Would be nice if a dev could confirm that they have recognized that the forced blur is a big problem for alot of people since its affecting players physically. It really has to go or at least made optional.

[Smurf 12]

Not good enough, I should add an "orange" area there because when (if) supression gets into account (right now is disabled) things may get unbalanced ; I'm not redoing the image because paint sux, I don't have PS on this machine and I get lost in GIMP. Suggestions on a image editor? :p

Smurf's suggestion is good. But we need forced walk when too much weight.

That too, but only for the really final part of the load bar there, last 1\5 or 6.

___________

Some may think is it a way to impose a more restrictive and boring gameplay, but I think it is something that will add:

• More value to transport overall ("Oh, there are people that doesn't care and will leave base with an empty vehicle" When they feel the suffering themselves, may change their minds)
  
• Teamplay; Battle budies \ ammo bearer*
  
• Better planning of movement, situation awareness (while taking a quick rest you are able to check map, surroundings)
  
• I forgot the last but was a good one, trust me. :cool: Edit: Oh yeah, better inventory management. Unload (and rest) before an assault, createating a RZ point for suplies, for example. Travel heavy, fight light.
  

Tactical groups play like that from the start but if you can enforce this type or behaviour on Wasteland and co throught a "passive" and believable way, things may change. Or am I putting too much trust on the "internet people" ?

* = Mental note; Add a ticket so that AI ammo bearers act kind like a medic. Instead of "Heal at..\ Heal that...", "Rearm". If is not like that already, have to check.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Smurf

[Masharra 10]

Or am I putting too much trust on the "internet people" ?

Well they are playing wasteland :D

Seriously though I love your idea and would be interested to see it expanded.

[Azzur33 1]

Easiest solution for all would be just getting used to the effects. They do what they are ment to do right now already.

You wouldn't want to have too much weight, if it means you get the wheezing and blurring sooner.

And you don't need any "forced" walk, if you have way too much stuff on your back.

If it means you will have to suffer the blur and wheezing almost immediately when you start jogging, then you Want to walk.

Why do you want to run up a steep hill anyway? That is really punishing for your body in real life too. And it Shows in the game already.

Add sound of heart beating heavily, weapon swaying, inability to hold breath, and there you have it.

You don't like the blur? Then don't get the blur. You don't have to run a marathon in the game. You don't have to sprint to get from A to B. You have to think how to save energy and your body, moving from A to B, the shortest way over a hill is not going to be the best, usually.

If you are seeing blurry all the time, then try to play smarter.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Azzur33

[-=seany=- 5]

No forced walk. You can't force public servers/ wasteland domination etc to play the way a tactical properly run private server works. Things like forced walk will become annoying very quickly.

It's not a matter of "making people think twice about leaving base with an empty vehicle". It's about playing in a chaotic (but fun) public server (as all public servers are) where the Newbie Pilot crashes 2km out side an AO so you now have to force walk to the objective. I don't have all night to play Arma and spend 20 minutes walking to an objective.

Like I said earlier, we could pretty much sprint indefinitely in Arma2. In Arma 3 sprint is very limited and you are forced to a jog. To me this has already gone a long way to restricting movement. I don't see why we need forced walk or ott PP effects to simulate encumbrance/fatigue. I would be happy with a slight variation in jog speed based on load out and the current restrictions to sprint, but that is it.

To be honest I would rather the blur than forced walk.

In fact now I think about it more, maybe we should just stick with the dev version with blur etc (maybe reduce the effect a little). I personally think I need more time playing Arma3 to see how I feel about this current system.

Edited June 27, 2013 by -=seany=-

[Masharra 10]

Like I said earlier, we could pretty much sprint indefinitely in Arma2.

Forgive me if I am mistaken but You could jog. The run animation kept the same but the actual speed slowed down to jogging speed.

[fujix 11]

Easiest solution for all would be just getting used to the effects. They do what they are ment to do right now already.

You wouldn't want to have too much weight, if it means you get the wheezing and blurring sooner.

And you don't need any "forced" walk, if you have way too much stuff on your back.

If it means you will have to suffer the blur and wheezing almost immediately when you start jogging, then you Want to walk.

Why do you want to run up a steep hill anyway? That is really punishing for your body in real life too. And it Shows in the game already.

Add sound of heart beating heavily, weapon swaying, inability to hold breath, and there you have it.

You don't like the blur? Then don't get the blur. You don't have to run a marathon in the game. You don't have to sprint to get from A to B. You have to think how to save energy and your body, moving from A to B, the shortest way over a hill is not going to be the best, usually.

If you are seeing blurry all the time, then try to play smarter.

Sooo, you think its ok for people to feel real physical discomfort from a game? There are so many other alternatives for fatigue punishment but this blur has to stay? People getting dry eyes, hurting eyes, nausea should just get "used to it"?

Im sorry but you sound like a real douche.

How about this then? For all you guys out there that think players should get physically punished IRL to simulate realism in a game. Every time you get hit in game you should get an electric shock. Dont like it? Well sucks to be you. Get used to it or avoid getting shot.

[byku 13]

No forced walk.

Do you understand that it is possible NOW to disable fatigue with one simple scripts?? So search for servers which do not have fatigue enabled.

GREAT IDEA SMURF! Disabling just the blur without adding any other penalty will make the whole weight system meaningless!

[metalcraze 290]

That too, but only for the really final part of the load bar there, last 1\5 or 6.

I agree. Should be a punishment for taking way too unrealistic loads and not just a general fatigue effect.

Unless player exploits the max load he should never encounter it really.

[Azzur33 1]

Sooo, you think its ok for people to feel real physical discomfort from a game? There are so many other alternatives for fatigue punishment but this blur has to stay? People getting dry eyes, hurting eyes, nausea should just get "used to it"?

Im sorry but you sound like a real douche.

Should I laugh or cry now?

AS I said: "If you are seeing blurry all the time, then try to play smarter."

I understand you are now fixated to this issue, running like mad around Stratis with helluva loads.

But in Normal gameplay, you don't see the blur often. And when you see it, you can get rid of it in few seconds. Or right away.

If you still want to keep blurring your vision, just for seeing how annoying it is, you should just stop playing the game.

For all you guys out there that think players should get physically punished IRL to simulate realism in a game. Every time you get hit in game you should get an electric shock. Dont like it? Well sucks to be you. Get used to it or avoid getting shot.

Overreacting is never constructive. As I have said:

1) You can get rid of the blur almost immediately.

2) It only occurs when you are doing something which is not very smart.

3) Most people can live with few seconds of slight blur, feel it annoying, but not having any "physical punishment".

4) They REACT to that annoyance by resting, finding cover if you are in tough place, and going prone for a few sec.

PS. I sure Would like to see (feel) some heavier effects when being hit or/and killed. Now it is quite ... lame.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Azzur33

[metalcraze 290]

No forced walk. You can't force public servers/ wasteland domination etc to play the way a tactical properly run private server works.

A) they can disable it with a single script command (enableFatigue false)

B) And why not? Why Wasteland players should be able to carry 100 kgs? Why ArmA should be catered to wasteland players of all people at the expense of everyone else and what ArmA stands for. See A)

C) what's with this crappy attitude "my part of the community should dictate how the whole game should be to everyone else even though my part of the community already has tools to cater the game to their needs and the other one does not". See A)

It's not a matter of "making people think twice about leaving base with an empty vehicle". It's about playing in a chaotic (but fun) public server (as all public servers are) where the Newbie Pilot crashes 2km out side an AO so you now have to force walk to the objective. I don't have all night to play Arma and spend 20 minutes walking to an objective.

Likewise I will ask the same question - why should the game be made unfun for the rest of people who want ArmA to be ArmA and not a clone of Battlefield where people crash choppers around without second thoughts?

Edited June 27, 2013 by metalcraze

[fujix 11]

People should get physically punished for not playing the game as Azzur33 wants us to play. Awesome.

Also Im not running around Stratis with helluva loads. I play the game pretty normal with normal loadout. And blur effect kicks in very fast.

So, slower movement, added sway isnt punishment enough? You know stuff that makes you pretty much combat ineffective. We need to add real life discomfort for certain players as well? If you like to punish yourself thats fine with me, go ahead. Dont force it on everyone else tho. Make the blur optional. Easiest solution.

[Smurf 12]

No forced walk. You can't force public servers/ wasteland domination etc to play the way a tactical properly run private server works. Things like forced walk will become annoying very quickly.

I think you are missing the point here.

With normal\default loadouts it takes a really long time to build fatigue even when jogging (gonna do some more testing later and get ze numbers). The suggestion is to, not punish, but to disencourage one-man-army loadouts. In you example, 2km should be no problem at all, at least with a balanced loadout maybe even with a full one + quick rests.

IRL soldiers walk most times and just jog when in contact or combat. I also agree that walking shouldn't be the "default" pace for most times because this still is a game and even if we stick to RL, fit persons like soldiers should be able to handle that.

In A2 you speed decreased but the animation didn't changed IIRC.

Should I laugh or cry now?

AS I said: "If you are seeing blurry all the time, then try to play smarter."

I don't think is the case. Blur is not only unrealistic but also may present a REAL problem for some people. Unlike the tinnitus effect used in ACE which was realistic but ended bringing some serious side effects for some people, including ex-mil.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Smurf

[Wolfstriked 11]

Not sure if I posted this already.What about making the weapon lowered animation actual jogging by lowering the speed slightly so when weapon is lowered you will start falling behind.Then remove the blur effect while in this animation so that heavily geared players can move around with no blur.This way if blur annoys you then slow the eff down.

Make weapons take a large part of the weight bar and the snipers and AT of course taking huge chunks of the weight bar.Allow it so that if your gear puts you below halfway of the stamina bar you can run with weapon up with no blur....but only on level ground.Go up hills and you will blur out and have to lower weapon/slow down or deal with the blur.

[fujix 11]

Likewise I will ask the same question - why should the game be made unfun for the rest of people who want ArmA to be ArmA and not a clone of Battlefield where people crash choppers around without second thoughts?

Tbh, the majority of people demanding ultra realism are the guys that play on private servers with like minded people, ie milsim squads. Correct me if im wrong?

These servers/squads often use realism mods like ACE and have rules on how the missions should be played, for example specific roles so not everyone is running around like a one man army.

Now im perfectly fine that some people want to have this kind of super realistic gameplay. But since the milsimers stick together in private communities they dont have to force their kind of gameplay to the rest of us. I admit I sometimes can enjoy playing like that. But most of the times I enjoy Arma for what it is. A semi realistic military sandbox. Not a real life simulator. If i wanted to have ultra realism I would join the army.

[Azzur33 1]

So, slower movement, added sway isnt punishment enough? You know stuff that makes you pretty much combat ineffective. We need to add real life discomfort for certain players as well? Make the blur optional. Easiest solution.

Well, I suggested optional blur over removing the blur few pages ago already.

That is not easiest solution though, of course. But it is the "user friendliest" solution.

There should be visual effects for the extreme fatigue still.

You wouldn't suggest removing "being wounded" -visual effects too?

Also the "head bob" and "camera shake" are purely visual effects too.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Azzur33

[bigpickle 0]

I'd be happy if they set the volume of the panting etc much much lower, its pretty gross wearing headphones and hearing the developer's adams apple going up and down, i mean why swallowing as well and asthmatic panting its over kill at the current volumes.