Fatigue effects

[dmarkwick 261]

Here's another suggestion that may work in conjunction with Smurfs.

If BIS is thinking about implementing difficulty based savegame enforcement, why not do the same for everything else?

For example at Recruit there will be no fatigue effects (incl. no blur), minimum sway, minimum recoil so people can have all the power fantasy sandbox gaming they want / practice until they are pro at the game / whatever else!

But on difficulties above that Smurf's fatigue will work (incl. eventual walk enforcement if you carry way too much) just like all other things - sway, breathing etc etc

Just like it's done in DCS A-10C where the lowest difficulty enables you to play in full arcade mode. That way there will be no wars and bickering between "camps".

Add realistic features, but disable them for recruit. All problems and drama = gone.

Best middle ground you can possibly find.

Yes. :)

RE the blur effect - I tried out the beta for the first time last night and I found the fatigue to be OK. It took me rather a long time to get the blur effect, I had to find a hill to run up in fact, so the blur is a bit of a non-issue as far as I'm concerned, after all the blur is there to indicate discomfort and that you should slow down. If you don't, the blur persists and gets worse. Which seems correct to me given that I don't feel any other kind of discomfort in game, it's an abstraction replacing one effect with an appropriate analog.

I understand some people *actually* get discomfort from this, I didn't myself but I can understand why. Your brain is trying to focus your eyes on something that has no focus, so the discomfort stems from there.

The other effects I didn't really test out thoroughly, but Metalcraze's idea of a ramping fatigue for difficulty setting seems reasonable. Longer recovery time & more swaying effect for increasing difficulty would seem to be a good compromise.

Edited June 28, 2013 by DMarkwick

[chortles 263]

Here's a problem with that proposal though -- how do you "balance" single-player or co-op missions against "effects" being difficulty-setting-dependent? As it is, (even before Jiri said that no TOH FM isn't in) we had the project lead mention "missions designed/balanced with a certain system in mind" as a reason that some requested feature wouldn't be 'vanilla'. With an attitude like that in the project lead, I can't see a real receptiveness.

On this whole "what Arma stands for" and "ultimate military simulator" malarkey:

http://www.arma3.com/features

EXPERIENCE TRUE COMBAT GAMEPLAY IN A MASSIVE MILITARY SANDBOX.

AUTHENTIC, DIVERSE, OPEN - ARMA 3 SENDS YOU TO WAR.

Somewhere on these forums is someone suppressing his urge to lash out and demand "WHERE IS THE 'SIMULATION' IN THAT DESCRIPTION, BI?!" :lol: I remember someone starting to have perturbed ramblings about the "sandbox" emphasis in BI's marketing...

As for all the backpack/AMR/launcher talk: there's a dev comment on a Feedback Tracker ticket (about the ability to have them all) saying that they could try to penalize such a loadout but wouldn't actually make it impossible in-game because it was possible at all in real life.

According to your feedback, it is obvious that there are more than just few players who doesn't like the visual fatigue effect. There are some options which have been formed by your feedback and our internal discussion. I can't say you what exactly is going to happen with that visual effect. Final solution depends on many variables (influence on gameplay, implementation time, etc.) and it wasn't decided yet. But we know about all this and it is probable that there will be some changes.***

Anyway, thank you all for help and for all on-topic posts. :)

DarkDruid, I wouldn't necessarily say "no visual fatigue effect" but there seems to be a distinct consensus that the current implementation is not "helping" promote tactical gameplay and in some cases it's outright detrimental to players' condition, so there seems to be a consensus for reconsidering and replacing said visual effect at least. :)

[Azzur33 1]

1. No you don't, you have to rest for a long time

2. Jogging for 15 seconds is not smart?

3. I can't

4. No, they react to that annoyance by hating the game and demanding a different solution from BIS

Checking my video again:

1) Stop. Go prone. Blur is gone in under 5 seconds, heavy breathing later.

2) Jogging up a steep hill for 15 seconds is not smart. But sometimes you have to do it. In the video I was jogging 2½ minutes with heavy load before any visual effects. You could jog even further if it's mostly downhill, of course. If you rest few seconds when you are beginning to see the dark edges, you can jog as far as you will without the blur, as the blur effect is just the last fatigue indicator.

3) I'm sorry.

4) And yet they could enjoy the game, understanding why visual effects are there.

I wonder what kind of monitor you have, what resolution and how many inches. Because some say that the blur is making them sick (even few seconds of it), and some say the blur is hardly noticeable. I see a very slight pulsating blur, far from making me sick.

[Tvrdi 10]

I wonder what kind of monitor you have, what resolution and how many inches. Because some say that the blur is making them sick (even few seconds of it), and some say the blur is hardly noticeable. I see a very slight pulsating blur, far from making me sick.

24" Dell e-IPS screen, gaming on 1920x1200....BLur is very noticable, annoying and distracting....(btw, I was a sniper in the regular army and still have an perfect eyesight)

You must realize that not everyone react the same....so, if that is disturbing for considerable amont of players - it should go. Period. We saw here good advices how you can deal with this feature (both visually and with forced walk option) without using an effect which will force many players to STOP PLAYING.

[dmarkwick 261]

without using an effect which will force many players to STOP PLAYING.

.... or at least, stop running ;)

jk ofc

[Tvrdi 10]

.... or at least, stop running ;)

jk ofc

I hear your joke. But on a serious note...why we wouldnt run in a game since we can do it in RL?....hell, back then in the army I was young, strong and in very good health and could run with full gear for a considerable amount of time. Ofcourse, after some time I would get tired but not after 1 or 2 mins, and never experienced blackouts, much less blurriness....hehe

Like I said...just make a character move slower (forced walk option or whataver) after some time of running....btw, you dont need to go prone to get faster recover LOL (like in the game)...

[dmarkwick 261]

I hear your joke. But on a serious note...why we wouldnt run in a game since we can do it in RL?....hell, back then in the army I was young, strong and in very good health and could run with full gear for a considerable amount of time. Ofcourse, after some time I would get tired but not after 1 or 2 mins, and never experienced blackouts, much less blurriness....hehe

Like I said...just make a character move slower (forced walk option or whataver) after some time of running....btw, you dont need to go prone to get faster recover LOL (like in the game)...

Well ingame I actually had a tough time getting a lot of blur going, basically it seemed to me that I had to deliberately tire myself out by running up a steep hill. Maybe it was my imagination (I only briefly tried it out last night) but the first time getting tired took a long time, but was slightly easier after that.

[giorgygr 61]

I don't like it..but they MUST keep it.

It's the only way to make the friggin' player to STOP for a while.

Everybody here screams for realism but..i never saw a player in a PvP match which he isn't Marathon runner.

FORCE THEM DASTERDS! :)

[GReeves 10]

I find it hard to believe this discussion has gone on for 21 pages; it seems pretty straightforward to me.

If you're trying to go for realism, I don't know why you would want to have blur effects and fading black screens.

Maybe everyone who has posted in this thread needs to go outside for thirty minutes and just run around with a full pack on. Come back to your computer and tell me what happened. Did you black out? Did your eyes lose focus? Probably not. Most likely, you'll be able to run quite a ways (especially if people are shooting at you) before tiring, and even then you just need a short break before you can run again.

So here's my solution, one that has been mentioned dozens of times already: after sprinting for a good distance, have the player gradually slow down until he's pretty much running in place. Yeah, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but you get the point. After a few moments he can start running again. Didn't it work this way in ArmA 2? I never felt cheated because my eyes kept working correctly after running a long ways.

[dmarkwick 261]

I find it hard to believe this discussion has gone on for 21 pages; it seems pretty straightforward to me.

If you're trying to go for realism, I don't know why you would want to have blur effects and fading black screens.

Maybe everyone who has posted in this thread needs to go outside for thirty minutes and just run around with a full pack on. Come back to your computer and tell me what happened. Did you black out? Did your eyes lose focus? Probably not. Most likely, you'll be able to run quite a ways (especially if people are shooting at you) before tiring, and even then you just need a short break before you can run again.

So here's my solution, one that has been mentioned dozens of times already: after sprinting for a good distance, have the player gradually slow down until he's pretty much running in place. Yeah, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but you get the point. After a few moments he can start running again. Didn't it work this way in ArmA 2? I never felt cheated because my eyes kept working correctly after running a long ways.

Well the reason this thread goes on for 21 pages is that people don't read the first 20 :D ;)

"Realism" isn't always about 1:1 what-you-see-in-RL, because some thing don't translate. You need an "appropriate analog" to simulate some things in different ways, because, you know, you're sitting looking at a monitor with a keyboard/mouse and not actually experiencing the environment.

Ingame you cannot feel tired in your legs, because you just can't. So you have a fatigue bar, or a sound, or an effect, that conveys the same information that you can monitor that is appropriate to the situation.

Is blurring "real"? Maybe not, but it conveys some information to me in a meaningful way that I can see.

Edited June 28, 2013 by DMarkwick

[afp 1]

"Realism" isn't always about 1:1 what-you-see-in-RL, because some thing don't translate. You need an "appropriate analog" to simulate some things in different ways, because, you know, you're sitting looking at a monitor with a keyboard/mouse and not actually experiencing the environment.

Ingame you cannot feel tired in your legs, because you just can't. So you have a fatigue bar, or a sound, or an effect, that conveys the same information that you can monitor that is appropriate to the situation.

Is blurring "real"? Maybe not, but it conveys some information to me in a meaningful way that I can see.

Not being able to sprint and heavy breathing is more than enough to "emulate" whats going on in real life. Actually, its EXACTLY what going on in real life. Oh, you don't feel the pain in your legs? But you don't feel the dry of the mouth, the sweat or the pain from boots either. What should we do, add some flashy lines on the screen to simulate this pain?

I think the designers should restrain of adding annoying "ultra-realistic" effects like fatigue, extra recoil, extra sway etc and make the game as playable and enjoyable is possible. This will maximize sells too. Then "ultra realistic" effects can be added by modders later if they consider.

Edited June 28, 2013 by afp

[faire 10]

It seems to me that people contributing to the topic have low RL experience. I have run quite a lot with heavy baggage (medieval armors, backpacks with load) and yes, I find it MUCH more difficult to concentrate while being in deep anaeorobic state, because you can concentrate more or less on one think: that big red flash light in your heart screaming I NEEED OXYGEN. It is far easier to miss a visual clue when you are tired - much more when your lungs are trying to implode and explode at the same time.

[metalcraze 290]

I think the designers should restrain of adding annoying "ultra-realistic" effects like fatigue, extra recoil, extra sway etc and make the game as playable and enjoyable is possible.

Playable and enjoyable for whom? I find "ultra-realistic" (what a bs term for something that's not even realistic enough) effects like those to be fun, an extra layer of complexity that makes the experience a lot more enjoyable than a boring straight up shootbox present in dozens of other games.

Why not just go and play all those shooters you already have that give you exactly what you want? Nothing gives us what we want but ArmA (and a $500 VBS2), why cut out stuff that makes the game what it is simply because people refuse to adapt to the challenge?

Then "ultra realistic" effects can be added by modders later if they consider.

How about "ultra realistic" effects being removed by modders instead? What's with this "hurr if you want something wait for mods" when it comes to something you don't like.

[Azzur33 1]

I tried the good old Arma 2 OA to test how the fatigue was handled in it.

I put a machine gunner on the start of a runway, put him to sprint, jammed the w-key with a coin, and game speed to 4x.

And he ran, ran fast, ran to the hills, and far away. After 10 minutes, he was still running like hell, just a slight neat heat effect showing, and very mild breathing.

Game to normal speed, and there he was still going and feeling fine and fresh.

Then stopped him, he was ready to go for a marathon again, shooting was fine, breathing which you could barely hear, fading away.

There was ABSOLUTELY Nothing AT ALL to make Me feel that I should stop this poor guy before he collapses and dies for heat and exhaustion.

What was the difference between these two games?

In Arma 2 I could run forever.

In Arma 3 I have to think how to use my energy, how fast should I move, should I really try to run on the open or should I be more careful and think about distances sprinting and/or running from cover to cover.

Obviously Arma 3 fatigue effects Work as they should.

After trying Arma 2, I'm convinced the game Needs visual fatigue effects and that heavy breathing and coughing and wheezing.

Playing without them felt lame. Almost arcadey.

I was really surprised.

Let us have the blur if we want it. Let others have option to play without blur, if they prefer that.

If there is some better visual effect, that is effective enough, but doesn't give some players physical discomfort, I'm ready to accept that too.

But please developers, do not Force me walk!

(Except when I'm injured/wounded. And trying to run stupidly with way too much weight on, you could be in a risk of injuring your legs? That would leave the player the desicion.)

Edited June 28, 2013 by Azzur33

[Mansen 10]

It seems to me that people contributing to the topic have low RL experience. I have run quite a lot with heavy baggage (medieval armors, backpacks with load) and yes, I find it MUCH more difficult to concentrate while being in deep anaeorobic state, because you can concentrate more or less on one think: that big red flash light in your heart screaming I NEEED OXYGEN. It is far easier to miss a visual clue when you are tired - much more when your lungs are trying to implode and explode at the same time.

It's not as if you have to run a mile with gear in the beta to sound like you're having a heart-attack.

[Taisen75 1]

Why not just go and play all those shooters you already have that give you exactly what you want? Nothing gives us what we want but ArmA (and a $500 VBS2), why cut out stuff that makes the game what it is simply because people refuse to adapt to the challenge?

This is exactly why I am pretty dissappointed with the current state of arma 3, I still play arma 2 daily and whenever I play arma 3 it feels completely different, pretty much like im playing a game like counterstrike (mainly because of the issues in metalcraze's signature). IMO arma should stay being an unique game focused on realism, anyone who disagrees has tons of other alternatives, which realism players dont have.

[Masharra 10]

In Arma 2 I could run forever.

Are you sure?

Also you seem to have played down the aiming dispersion that goes with

IIRC as Ive said before, They keep the sprinting animation but the actual speed decreases.

That being said The only real thing that will keep you from running like a madman into a combat is fear of death.

No respawn. No revive. That alone will make people stop running like madmen. But then again it really mattes what and how said person plays.

The option is all people have asked for. It was taken away, people would like it back.

[Azzur33 1]

This is exactly why I am pretty dissappointed with the current state of arma 3, I still play arma 2 daily and whenever I play arma 3 it feels completely different, pretty much like im playing a game like counterstrike (mainly because of the issues in metalcraze's signature). IMO arma should stay being an unique game focused on realism, anyone who disagrees has tons of other alternatives, which realism players dont have.

There's still a lot of stuff missing in the beta state, but I see the huge improvements and the potential the game has already over Arma 2.

If the missing little and bigger things are still missing when the game is finally out, then I would be disappointed.

I'm 99,999% sure that developers want Arma to stay being an unique game focused on realism and not taking the easier step.

[afp 1]

Playable and enjoyable for whom? I find "ultra-realistic" (what a bs term for something that's not even realistic enough) effects like those to be fun, an extra layer of complexity that makes the experience a lot more enjoyable than a boring straight up shootbox present in dozens of other games.

Why not just go and play all those shooters you already have that give you exactly what you want? Nothing gives us what we want but ArmA (and a $500 VBS2), why cut out stuff that makes the game what it is simply because people refuse to adapt to the challenge?

I think you got me wrong, I said earlier that my idea was to add the blur effect as a game option so both of us can enjoy the proper way to play. I have nothing against seeing you on a map knowing that you're tired and your vision is blur while mine isn't. Even more, I think the blur effect should be increased and also the dark vignete so the people embracing realism to belive even more that they are real soldiers. There is enough room for everybody to enjoy the game, as long this is added as an option.

[Azzur33 1]

Are you sure?

Also you seem to have played down the aiming dispersion that goes with

IIRC as Ive said before, They keep the sprinting animation but the actual speed decreases.

That being said The only real thing that will keep you from running like a madman into a combat is fear of death.

No respawn. No revive. That alone will make people stop running like madmen. But then again it really mattes what and how said person plays.

The option is all people have asked for. It was taken away, people would like it back.

"Forever" as being in sensible limits. If I had to run long distances in Arma 2 for some reasons (Dayz...), I just jammed the w.

If after 10 minutes with sprint animation on, on 4x speed, and back to normal speed, I could still run like I just started running, then the conclusion has to be: I can run forever in Arma 2.

"Played down" what? "IIRC"? Just the vanilla Arma 2. Speed didn't decrease much. Aiming was fine.

What do you mean? If you play Hardcore, you don't need extra effects, because you just do not run like a madman to get the effects?

Fear of death is realism. Fear of being ineffective when exhausted is realism.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Azzur33

[Masharra 10]

"Forever" as being in sensible limits. If I had to run long distances in Arma 2 for some reasons (Dayz...), I just jammed the w.

If after 10 minutes with sprint animation on, on 4x speed, and back to normal speed, I could still run like I just started running, then the conclusion has to be: I can run forever in Arma 2.

"Played down" what? "IIRC"? Just the vanilla Arma 2. Speed didn't decrease much. Aiming was fine.

What do you mean? If you play Hardcore, you don't need extra effects, because you just do not run like a madman to get the effects?

Fear of death is realism. Fear of being ineffective when exhausted is realism.

If I Recall Correctly

Aiming was fine? Really? If you were to say aiming was disturbed but it didnt bother you much then maybe I would take you a dash more seriously but to say it was fine?

Hardcore?

Not respawning is hardcore? :D Thank you for that wonderful compliment!

Though maybe something has changed, maybe some mod I have messes with movement. I have to finish my mission later I will sprint around for a bit to double check.

I just realised you said jam the w not double tap the W. Perhaps we have a dash of misunderstanding.

Simply pressing W is a jog unless, I am mistaken, which you can do endlessly in arma 2. Double tapping W is a run/spring which one can not do endlessly the animation may stay the same but... actually you said sprint animation... meh I dont know what you are talking about then.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Masharra

[Azzur33 1]

If I Recall Correctly

Aiming was fine? Really? If you were to say aiming was disturbed but it didnt bother you much then maybe I would take you a dash more seriously but to say it was fine?

Hardcore?

Not respawning is hardcore? :D Thank you for that wonderful compliment!

Though maybe something has changed, maybe some mod I have messes with movement. I have to finish my mission later I will sprint around for a bit to double check.

I just realised you said jam the w not double tap the W. Perhaps we have a dash of misunderstanding.

Simply pressing W is a jog unless, I am mistaken, which you can do endlessly in arma 2. Double tapping W is a run/spring which one can not do endlessly the animation may stay the same but... actually you said sprint animation... meh I dont know what you are talking about then.

Sigh. How should I know how you play your game.

It was not ment to be a "compliment", but just a rhetorical question, trying to understand what you mean.

So, what did you mean?

I didn't have any excessive weapon sway after my half-marathon. So, aiming was fine. I could still shoot effectively.

Edit: Testing again, yes there were a slight weapon sway, and holding breath didn't help.

I said I did sprint (double tap), then jam the w. = Sprint. After 10 minutes, still sprint animation. Still rather high speed. Not fastest, but not significantly slower either. Of course the sprint speed lasts limited amount of time, like in A3, although the animation stays at "sprint".

You can jog "forever" in Arma 3, but it's not nice and you can't sprint, that makes you want to rest.

You can jog "forever" in Arma 2. The only downside is that you can't sprint if you don't have a rest.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Azzur33

[Fuse 1]

You guys must have much better squad leaders than I do. When my squad leader says "double time it up this hill" and then runs straight up a 60 degree incline it really doesn't take long for the fatigue effects to kick in. Like I said a few pages back: I know that's not how the squad "should" be moving, but things rarely go as they should in combat.

I don't have a problem with the game making my character combat ineffective, it's the game making me combat ineffective that is the problem, and it's already been hinted that it's not functioning as intended. Y'all are just being silly.

I feel bad for whoever at BI has to actually wade through this. Here's to you, Din.

"Though I've belted you and flayed you,

By the livin' Gawd that made you,

You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!"

[Azzur33 1]

I feel bad for whoever at BI has to actually wade through this. Here's to you, Din.

There is already one solution that seems to be ok for (almost) everybody. Optional blur.

Enough said. Time to move on.

[chortles 263]

There is already one solution that seems to be ok for (almost) everybody. Optional blur.

Enough said. Time to move on.

Some of the complaining was that t they wanted forced blur...

I too pity whatever dev is stuck reading threads like this.