3D scopes have a fatal flaw (dev build)

[rasdenfasden 12]

The dev build's 3D scopes are messed up.

They're "painted on" like red dots in previous Arma games, meaning that instead of using the fancy effect that collimator sights use, the reticule is just drawn right onto the scope. Now, in Arma 3 there is a noticeable amount of gun movement in the idle animations. The easiest way to see this is when you stand still and look through iron sights, you'll notice that the alignment is imperfect and adjusts constantly (which is pretty cool IMO).

This same movement is what breaks the 3D scopes. As the gun moves about, the painted on reticule misaligns with the weapon. When you shoot even out to medium ranges, it gets pretty clear that the gun isn't shooting where you point it. It's bad enough that you're better off just using a collimator in all situations.

So my suggestion would be to add the same collimation effect to the 3D scopes. That way the reticule would always point the right way.

[metalcraze 290]

Also in low light conditions it's now impossible to see even the red colored aimpoint of optics, let alone markings - which are hard to see even during well lit conditions to begin with.

And by low light conditions I don't mean dark night - but anything but a bright day.

I certainly like that it's harder to hit dudes far away (as it should be!) but these issues have to be fixed.

[mr_centipede 31]

I think the reticule are meant to be painted on the scope... They're not the same breed as those holosight that points where the bullet will hit.

[rasdenfasden 12]

I think the reticule are meant to be painted on the scope... They're not the same breed as those holosight that points where the bullet will hit.

I doubt that, considering the fact that it's actually easier to hit with a holosite compared to a 3D scope at 400+m

[PuFu 4600]

aren't those 3d scopes like 10- 12x magnification btw, or close to that

they seem to zoom farther than 3.4 - 4x (acog and other medium range optics)

afaik, the acog type scopes are not holographic

[victim913 10]

What weapon has a 3d scope? I want to see what it looks like.

[afp 1]

They meant spatial new scopes added in beta, not the circle with reticle on the black background it used to be. Just let Steam update to beta version.

[rasdenfasden 12]

aren't those 3d scopes like 10- 12x magnification btw, or close to that

they seem to zoom farther than 3.4 - 4x (acog and other medium range optics)

afaik, the acog type scopes are not holographic

It says the ARCO has 12x magnification when you mouse over it in the inventory.

Update: Guess I exaggerated the effects of the misalignment a bit yesterday. After testing again, I'd say the misalignment becomes a noticeable annoyance only at 500+m.

Edited June 23, 2013 by RasdenFasden

[victim913 10]

I did update to beta that's why I want to know which scopes are the ones they mean. But I think I know what you mean. I guess I didn't pay much attention to the scopes. They look the same as the CQC sights right? The difference being that they magnify? Like the BF2 I used to play.

Edited June 23, 2013 by victim913

[daveallen10 35]

Hmm...its very hard to tell from the videos, when the Beta comes out I will look into this.

It would be fair if this same disadvantage (realism?) were added to all other scopes/weapons.

[fraczek 4]

What? You guys do realise that the telescopic sights do not have a collimated reticle, right? Or are you actually complaining about weapon sway? Or what did I miss here (pun intended)?

[EDcase 87]

Yeah, for the RCO and ARCO the 'scope' view is not a collimator only the red dot type on top is.

What bothers me is the 300m fixed ranging.

So below that you have to shoot at enemy feet to hit them in the torso and more than 300m you have to shoot over their heads.FPDR

Apparently even in the future they are using crappy sights that can't be adjusted for elevation :coop:

Edited June 24, 2013 by EDcase

[DaRkL3AD3R 1]

The telescopic sights aren't collimators but the way you have to be lined up to view the crosshairs properly is extremely similar in practice. Being off at just the slightly wrong angle will totally distort the magnified view to look like just the black inside of the scope. Now if the RCO and ARCO are not magnified then their current implementation is just fine. But I believe these are meant to basically be futuristic ACOG's which are in fact 4x zoom magnification. So if zoom is at play (which it is) then they should replicate the holographic sights effect with the optic one as this is much more true to the way it really is. I have used several sights over the last decade in real life, ranging from a no-zoom ACOG style, a 4x ACOG style and a 9x39mm scope. In everything that was zoomed you had to have your eye aligned straight down the "barrel" of the scope/sight for things to line up properly.

[Wolfstriked 11]

In certain light conditions the view thru sight is very bad.I just throw the SOS on every weapon I use and hope they leave this one as is.

[fraczek 4]

What bothers me is the 300m fixed ranging. [...]

Apparently even in the future they are using crappy sights that can't be adjusted for elevation

Ehm, you probably haven't noticed the little markings under the main dot with numbers like 4, 6, 8 ? Just like in real ACOG... :FPDR: indeed.

These markings do actually work. (hint - it's the range in hundreds of meters). The ACOG type sights are not meant to be zeroable - you just use the little crosshair next to the number to shoot at longer range.

[rasdenfasden 12]

The telescopic sights aren't collimators but the way you have to be lined up to view the crosshairs properly is extremely similar in practice. Being off at just the slightly wrong angle will totally distort the magnified view to look like just the black inside of the scope. Now if the RCO and ARCO are not magnified then their current implementation is just fine. But I believe these are meant to basically be futuristic ACOG's which are in fact 4x zoom magnification. So if zoom is at play (which it is) then they should replicate the holographic sights effect with the optic one as this is much more true to the way it really is. I have used several sights over the last decade in real life, ranging from a no-zoom ACOG style, a 4x ACOG style and a 9x39mm scope. In everything that was zoomed you had to have your eye aligned straight down the "barrel" of the scope/sight for things to line up properly.

Just a thought, could the collimator effect be used to make a scope shadow?

Also, here's an easy way to see the misalignment:

Set the game to night time and equip your rifle with an IR laser. Turn NV and lasers on (shouldn't NV not work with scopes?), and watch as the laser beam and the reticule move about and misalign.

Ehm, you probably haven't noticed the little markings under the main dot with numbers like 4, 6, 8 ? Just like in real ACOG... :FPDR: indeed.

These markings do actually work. (hint - it's the range in hundreds of meters). The ACOG type sights are not meant to be zeroable - you just use the little crosshair next to the number to shoot at longer range.

I think the problem is that the HAMR's reticule is rather impractical for ranges closer than 300m.

I for one really like the ARCO now. It has my favorite reticule, and it looks really cool on the MX.

Edited June 24, 2013 by RasdenFasden

[EDcase 87]

Ehm, you probably haven't noticed the little markings under the main dot with numbers like 4, 6, 8 ? Just like in real ACOG... :FPDR: indeed.

These markings do actually work. (hint - it's the range in hundreds of meters). The ACOG type sights are not meant to be zeroable - you just use the little crosshair next to the number to shoot at longer range.

Yep I do know but its quite pointless to engage enemy over 300m with the weapons those scopes are usually on.

The most common engagement range is below 300m where the RCO and ARCO are just shit.

What the hell is the big deal about adding elevation adjustment!?!?!?

Edited June 24, 2013 by EDcase

[Minoza 11]

Just a thought, could the collimator effect be used to make a scope shadow?

Now this is a great idea! It could even have a gameplay purpose, not just visual. Currently you can move scope around as fast and as much as you want and you can always pin point a target in a matter of few milliseconds. This method could be used to introduce recovery time when sniping, meaning it will take a sec or two to align optics so that you can shoot. The bigger the scope and heavier the weapon, the harder to align, it would basically solve the issue with everyone preferring sniper over an assault rifle.

[fraczek 4]

EDcase, no big deal. Just that it would defeat the whole purpose of an ACOG type scope (rapid target acquisition at different ranges).

The sights are modelled after ACOG, which (AFAIK in most models) is not really field zeroable (as in you turn an elevation knob few MOA clicks like on the ACE sniper scopes). Actually, in order to zero the sight, you have to unscrew little caps and adjust with a screwdriver. Not something you would be doing in the heat of battle. Mind you, as it shows ingame, the sight is zeroed to 300m, so as with the real ACOG, you should use the top of the chevron (or top of the upper vertical line probably) as PointOfAim for targets at 100m.

http://stevespages.com/pdf/trijicon_ta-338-3x30.pdf, page 18, from the Trijicon ACOG manual.

If that does not work, well, then it's a bug with the sight. From my preliminary testing, it seems to work. Of course I would prefer the chevron version for Bluefor, as it's easier to use up close with top of the chervon as your 100m POA.

One bug others here noted is that the sight is not illuminated at night (or perhaps is, but recent lighting changes screwed it up). At least some of the marks should be tritium iluminated at all times even in total darkness.

RasdenFasden, nice tip about the laser. Gonna test that.

Nice idea about the scope misaligning using the collimator effect!

[becario 1]

Yep I do know but its quite pointless to engage enemy over 300m with the weapons those scopes are usually on.

The most common engagement range is below 300m where the RCO and ARCO are just shit.

What the hell is the big deal about adding elevation adjustment!?!?!?

Then you just change to the CQB top scope and use that... because they are there for a motive, not just aesthetics.

[Minoza 11]

@RasdenFasden

Could you maybe create a ticket with this feature request so that we can vote it up? In short, using collimator effect to achieve scope "shadowing"/misalignment to the eye.

[rasdenfasden 12]

Hi guys, I made a ticket regarding scope shadows.

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=10085

[twistking 204]

Hi guys, I made a ticket regarding scope shadows.

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=10085

thanks. +1

[rasdenfasden 12]

I now added a screenshot that demonstrates scope misalignment using the IR laser to the other ticket.

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=9872

[fraczek 4]

As to previously noted "flaws", I just tested with the beta dev build. Made a simple mission in editor on airfield with targets at 100,200,300,400,500,600m. Maybe I am missing something, but:

1) ACOG style reticles work well if you use them as expected. Consistent results, using top of the chevron for 100m, crosshair for 300m, and notches for all the way up to 600m (farthest I tested), I was able to score hits accurately (as much as the weapon sway and my horrible mouse skills allowed), even at 600m distance. Tried all three sides, always Team Leader with his default rifle which has the ACOG style scope.

2) Misalignment - RasdenFasden, thanks for the screenshot. Gonna test this further. I didn't notice it, were you moving or at idle?

3) One cosmetic flaw is the brightness of the reticle when at night. ACOG style scopes have tritium illuminated reticles, and these are not at all visible unless with NV on. They should probably be more visible without NV. (Apart from that the scope shouldn't be usable with NV goggles, that's what the CQB sight is for, at least I can't imagine looking through an ACOG scope with headmounted binocular goggles, unlike a monocular where it would be somewhat - but awkwardly - possible). The red dot CQB sight has perfect brightness during the night, so I guess it's an issue of tweaking the relevant materials/textures.

/edited/

Edited June 24, 2013 by fraczek