Takedown: Red Sabre

[Flogger23m 2]

I believe that would be what we call a 'red herring' in the field of critical thinking, Flogger23m.

Perhaps, but it is the contradictory thought process which I find humorous. Nothing has advanced in tactical shooters since SWAT 4 (and even then, maybe not much as I have not tried SWAT 3) and therefore it would be illogical for Thromp to purchase any realism shooter from that time period until now. And there seems to be nothing in sight as a replacement for Flashpoint/Raven Shield/SWAT 4 (or even 3). Regardless I found it humorous.

Art wise, some assets will be getting a work over. What will and won't I can not say for sure, but I know the weapon 3D models are being redone from scratch. Or at least some of them. Animations on the characters certainly do look odd in this more clear video:

Still, the lack of grenade usage annoys me. Probably they are not implemented properly at the moment, at least at disorienting AI. Flash bangs have been confirmed and they are of the R6/SWAT style (selectable) and are not like CoD/ArmA "instant" throw method.

[Sealife 22]

Perhaps, but it is the contradictory thought process which I find humorous. Nothing has advanced in tactical shooters since SWAT 4 (and even then, maybe not much as I have not tried SWAT 3) and therefore it would be illogical for Thromp to purchase any realism shooter from that time period until now. And there seems to be nothing in sight as a replacement for Flashpoint/Raven Shield/SWAT 4 (or even 3). Regardless I found it humorous.

.

I dont mind being laughed at , but your inability to present the beggining and end of the joke is a little irritating, I am not adverse to eating humble pie

But your force feeding me it

It maybe that I have spent more time in the engine of OFP and Arma that makes me dismiss your use of the RV Engine to justify the giggles

To digress and remain on topic , I will again state my own opinion that at this early stage , I see nothing to persuade me that it brings anythingnew to the table and hope the lack of inovation presented so far is a resukt of the energy gone into the AI.

[PuFu 4591]

Perhaps, but it is the contradictory thought process which I find humorous. Nothing has advanced in tactical shooters since SWAT 4 (and even then, maybe not much as I have not tried SWAT 3) and therefore it would be illogical for Thromp to purchase any realism shooter from that time period until now. And there seems to be nothing in sight as a replacement for Flashpoint/Raven Shield/SWAT 4 (or even 3). Regardless I found it humorous.

Art wise, some assets will be getting a work over. What will and won't I can not say for sure, but I know the weapon 3D models are being redone from scratch. Or at least some of them. Animations on the characters certainly do look odd in this more clear video:

Still, the lack of grenade usage annoys me. Probably they are not implemented properly at the moment, at least at disorienting AI. Flash bangs have been confirmed and they are of the R6/SWAT style (selectable) and are not like CoD/ArmA "instant" throw method.

Just because this game tries to resurrect (to a certain degree), the tactical shooter genre, doesn't mean it will succeed.

No matter what other games this lad has worked before (i have actually had a look over their staff list and their previous games, nothing spectacular there either), for what is worth at this very moment, art wise (i am not talking about only about their 3d models here, but rather lighting, texturing and environments), as well as gameplay wise (rigidity - even more than arma - which in my books is one of the rigid ones out there) and very poorly done animation (and/or weighting).

All in all, there is nothing to look forward here. Should i spend money on a poor game (it heads that way) just because it tries to be a tactical shooter?

[Flogger23m 2]

I dont mind being laughed at , but your inability to present the beggining and end of the joke is a little irritating, I am not adverse to eating humble pie

But your force feeding me it

It maybe that I have spent more time in the engine of OFP and Arma that makes me dismiss your use of the RV Engine to justify the giggles

To digress and remain on topic , I will again state my own opinion that at this early stage , I see nothing to persuade me that it brings anythingnew to the table and hope the lack of inovation presented so far is a resukt of the energy gone into the AI.

AI has been stated as a big development focus so I hope it will be as good or better than SWAT 4. That remains to be seen however.

I never mentioned anything about ArmA's engine, rather about its lack of focus and progress throughout the series. The infantry in ArmA 3 and the editor is lagging so far behind in many aspects yet they shoehorned in a laughable under water combat element in ArmA 3 which is reminiscent of Call of Duty level realism. What has ArmA 1/2 and now 3 brought that is unique to the genre? Nothing; they're playing catch up with basic shooter mechanics and editor UI yet continuing to buy the games while claiming each release is worthy of buying due to the implied "innovation" is what I found ironic. Nothing wrong with buying/playing them, but not buying a similar genre title for lack of innovation while buying ArmA 1/2/3 is contradictory. But buy/play what makes you happy.

Just because this game tries to resurrect (to a certain degree), the tactical shooter genre, doesn't mean it will succeed.

No matter what other games this lad has worked before (i have actually had a look over their staff list and their previous games, nothing spectacular there either), for what is worth at this very moment, art wise (i am not talking about only about their 3d models here, but rather lighting, texturing and environments), as well as gameplay wise (rigidity - even more than arma - which in my books is one of the rigid ones out there) and very poorly done animation (and/or weighting).

All in all, there is nothing to look forward here. Should i spend money on a poor game (it heads that way) just because it tries to be a tactical shooter?

Rogue Spear, Ghost Recon 1 and SWAT were not impressive? :p Those games basically shaped the genre. I may not like many of the titles they have worked on (IMO) but some of them have worked on some successful and technically sound games. Red herring?

Will it succeed? May, maybe not. That is to be seen. Art wise it looks fine IMO, save for the incomplete aspects. Muddy character textures (and odd coloration of them) as well as the animations. Some of it is WIP and will be replaced. How much of it all I am not sure. Graphics are not a focus though and the technology is dated so don't get your hopes up for ground breaking visuals. In all honesty it reminds me of SWAT 4 graphically, though perhaps you dislike the art style of that as well.

I agreed with you on the videos. Not too impressive yet gameplay wise, mainly due to lack of grenade usage IMO. But I should point out that this is an alpha; actually I believe it is a pre-alpha. Lots of work to be done and many features are not implemented, lots of place holders, and lots of bugs. I think it will get better. Already the bullet penetration and body armor system appears to put games like SWAT and ArmA to shame. Will the final game be revolutionary? I am not so sure. I have high hopes that it will take what R6/SWAT was and improve upon it from a realism (weapons, movement, collision) and technical stand point (AI). To me that is good enough; I am looking for a realistic tactical shooter. If it pushes above what previous games have done in the past I will be satisfied. Maybe that is not enough for the rest of you but that is your decision. I'll just suggest to look into the final game.

Better look at the UI:

http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af73/Flogger23m/TDwpnswp_zps04533053.jpg

Not a fan of the weapon in the corner (redundant) and an ammo counter is worthless. But we will have the option to turn it off. All we need is an RO type "feels heavy/light" icon when reloading and a magazine count when reloading. It should appear only briefly. Fire mode can stay there though as there is no way to realistically check the selector switch in game.

http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af73/Flogger23m/TDAR_zpsf5975138.jpg

http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af73/Flogger23m/TDAR2_zps2b8ea663.jpg

[max power 21]

Perhaps, but it is the contradictory thought process which I find humorous.

Humorous thinks are often not logically cogent.

[Flogger23m 2]

Humorous thinks are often not logically cogent.

Claim what you want, but the point still stands. ArmA 3 is merely playing catch up and is doing little to nothing innovative for the genre. Knocking the developers because you think they're lying (without even listening to the audio) and knocking previous projects they have worked on is avoiding the topic more than anything. I am not referring to you personally Max, but rather some of the other posts in the thread. The legitimate criticism is great. I do the same for Takedown as I do for ArmA and I realize that both may not be revolutionary for the genre. But I can enjoy what they do (or seem to) improve. I'm done with this side discussion and will continue to post updates for Takedown unless you feel like locking the thread.

[max power 21]

Claim what you want, but the point still stands. ArmA 3 is merely playing catch up and is doing little to nothing innovative for the genre. Knocking the developers because you think they're lying (without even listening to the audio) and knocking previous projects they have worked on is avoiding the topic more than anything. I am not referring to you personally Max, but rather some of the other posts in the thread. The legitimate criticism is great. I do the same for Takedown as I do for ArmA and I realize that both may not be revolutionary for the genre. But I can enjoy what they do (or seem to) improve. I'm done with this side discussion and will continue to post updates for Takedown unless you feel like locking the thread.

The issue is that to say that someone's claim is ridiculous based on another, unrelated claim is not logically cogent. Facts here |==================| facts over here. <=== not related.

I can like hockey but hate golf regardless of whether they are two sports played with sticks.

[PuFu 4591]

Rogue Spear, Ghost Recon 1 and SWAT were not impressive? :p Those games basically shaped the genre. I may not like many of the titles they have worked on (IMO) but some of them have worked on some successful and technically sound games. Red herring?

Besides the Christian Allen, who is a creative director/producer (and used to fill the same roll with r6 games), the other staff is...welll. Look up what a creative director job is within the game industry.

Art wise it looks fine IMO, save for the incomplete aspects. Muddy character textures (and odd coloration of them) as well as the animations.

This is not even a matter of opinion. UE3 engine is not an excuse, it's suppose to be an advantage really.

Some of it is WIP and will be replaced. How much of it all I am not sure. Graphics are not a focus though and the technology is dated so don't get your hopes up for ground breaking visuals. In all honesty it reminds me of SWAT 4 graphically, though perhaps you dislike the art style of that as well.

WIP means work in process. The WIP content usually is not getting replaced altogether, it gets better and/or more polished. In some of those cases, this wip content is better shaft and made from ground up.

SWAT 4 is game i own and have played for a long time. There is a difference between have the same art STYLE as swat 4 (2005 release) and looking exactly the same.

I agreed with you on the videos. Not too impressive yet gameplay wise, mainly due to lack of grenade usage IMO. But I should point out that this is an alpha; actually I believe it is a pre-alpha. Lots of work to be done and many features are not implemented, lots of place holders, and lots of bugs. I think it will get better. Already the bullet penetration and body armor system appears to put games like SWAT and ArmA to shame. Will the final game be revolutionary? I am not so sure. I have high hopes that it will take what R6/SWAT was and improve upon it from a realism (weapons, movement, collision) and technical stand point (AI). To me that is good enough; I am looking for a realistic tactical shooter. If it pushes above what previous games have done in the past I will be satisfied. Maybe that is not enough for the rest of you but that is your decision. I'll just suggest to look into the final game.

I learned not to have high hopes when a game is a such a poor condition when in alpha stage. We'll see.

Claim what you want, but the point still stands. ArmA 3 is merely playing catch up and is doing little to nothing innovative for the genre. Knocking the developers because you think they're lying (without even listening to the audio) and knocking previous projects they have worked on is avoiding the topic more than anything. I am not referring to you personally Max, but rather some of the other posts in the thread. The legitimate criticism is great. I do the same for Takedown as I do for ArmA and I realize that both may not be revolutionary for the genre. But I can enjoy what they do (or seem to) improve. I'm done with this side discussion and will continue to post updates for Takedown unless you feel like locking the thread.

Arma has some catching up to do with 2013, yes, agree.

That said ArmA is THE genre. It has no competition, and definitely doesn't fit in the same bucket with the named tactical shooters.

I really don't understand why you feel the need to compare the two, gameplay or development wise. The current alpha stage is in perfect playing condition btw.

Knowcking one game to underline another...is not helping the second.

[Flogger23m 2]

Christian is doing scripting and other development tasks, such as implementing bullet penetration, testing it, adding recoil properties and bullet decals. I think it is fair to say he is doing some of the work himself. ;) WIP does indeed mean work in progress, and some of the content shown months ago is entirely being remade. Some will get improved. Only thing I know for sure is the M4 3D model will get replaced, but it is safe to assume other things can get changed. Apparently the ArmA 3 beta will feature BF3 style scopes rather than the 2D textures of the Alpha which is a large change. I can expect similar things to happen for Takedown.

What else is in poor condition aside from the art style? I was not a fan of the loadout UI screen shots (also very WIP as you can see from a quick glance) as it suffers the same issue that SWAT 4's did but hopefully that will change as well.

Whenever the Alpha gets released perhaps I will get a better idea of how it will turn out. Lets hope it gets better. IMO, I have some decent hopes for this title. Hopefully by release it will be enough to please the both of us.

[kernriver 4]

Well, that's really all we can do right now, hope that Takedown becomes a good tactical shooter. I certainly do. :)

[Crierd 24]

I have my hopes are artificially high simply because I want to see a game like this, but from what I have seen from the youtube videos and documentation on their website, I'm not impressed.

[Apostate 28]

Did they make some of the levels look vaguely similar to Ravenshield on purpose?

[Flogger23m 2]

Takedown: Red Sabre is up for pre-order on Steam. Price is $15. After playing the Alpha I can best describe the gameplay as being similar to Raven Shield. Its worth looking into if you like small scale tactical shooters.

[Smurf 12]

I don't know if this video makes more bad than good for the image of the game:

Fast is slow and slow is fast?

First thing that came to mind is Tactical Ops, a CS knock off:

[JdB 151]

I don't know if this video makes more bad than good for the image of the game:

Fast is slow and slow is fast?

First thing that came to mind is Tactical Ops, a CS knock off:

Doesn't really represent the game at all imo. Trailers never do. Actual gameplay videos is all I ever look at.

Don't you know it? It's the lesser known cousin of "Slow is smooth and smooth is fast" that isn't being taught anymore since it typically got everyone on the team killed as they all stared blankly at the floor or ceiling trying to decide what HQ meant by it :rolleyes:

I used to play Tactical Ops extensively from when the first version came out as a mod for Unreal Tournament. What I've seen so far doesn't remind me of Tac Ops ... but it doesn't remind me of Raven Shield either ... :confused:

[jeza 5415]

I used to follow it a lot and posted on the forums over there all excited but months back decided not so much looking forward to it...

and now

Urm....

[ebarstad 18]

I used to follow it a lot and posted on the forums over there all excited but months back decided not so much looking forward to it...

and now

Urm....

I feel pretty much the same. I pledged on Kickstarter because I thought there would be a strong single-player component (similar to SWAT 4). Unfortunately, this no longer seems to be the case (from what I've seen, anyway). I shouldn't begrudge them $15, but I kind of do since I likely won't play any MP. I guess we'll see when it releases.

[froggyluv 2130]

So it's MP only? Shame. The joy of plan + execution tac shooter games is that you need one side to be unawares, to see your planning payoff - that's an impossibility in MP as everyone is waiting to shoot and generally won't just guard an area or VIP. I'm really convinced that most developers are simply giving up on AI as they just don't have the skill needed. I certainly thought that since Swat 4, interior AI would be worlds better in PC gaming by now but it's actually regressed if anything. Swat 4 came out 8 years ago!!

I'll sit this one out.

[ebarstad 18]

I don't know for sure that it's mp only, but I haven't seen anything concrete about sp since the kickstarter. And for $15 I'm guessing co-op and vs are the main focus.

[EuroSlave 1]

Great so even this is going to be crap too? Might as well stop playing games alltogether since only 2 games of some worth have been released in the last 8 years...

How in this day and age can they make a game subpar to what swat4 came out with all those years ago

[Rumsfield 1]

Here's 9 minutes of actual gameplay footage of Takedown: Red Sabre with developer commentary.

http://www.ign.com/videos/2013/08/19/takedown-red-sabre-developer-commentary

[Flogger23m 2]

So it's MP only? Shame. The joy of plan + execution tac shooter games is that you need one side to be unawares, to see your planning payoff - that's an impossibility in MP as everyone is waiting to shoot and generally won't just guard an area or VIP. I'm really convinced that most developers are simply giving up on AI as they just don't have the skill needed. I certainly thought that since Swat 4, interior AI would be worlds better in PC gaming by now but it's actually regressed if anything. Swat 4 came out 8 years ago!!

I'll sit this one out.

There is an SP with AI. How advanced the AI is is unknown at this point. They are doing a final Q/A video for Kickstarters - I asked a lot of questions about the AI, squad commands and SP. Hopefully they get answered. I am an SP player and I to want a strong SP.

The trailer was rather horrible IMO. It looked more like a trailer for an over the top action game. Gameplay from the Alpha was more along the lines of Raven Shield so it should still have that feel. I fear that too many things may not have received the depth I had hoped for.

Going from the beta I find ArmA 3 to be a let down and I sincerely hope Takedown doesn't follow suit. Guess I will know soon enough.

[down8 30]

There is an SP with AI. How advanced the AI is is unknown at this point. They are doing a final Q/A video for Kickstarters - I asked a lot of questions about the AI, squad commands and SP. Hopefully they get answered. I am an SP player and I to want a strong SP.

The trailer was rather horrible IMO. It looked more like a trailer for an over the top action game. Gameplay from the Alpha was more along the lines of Raven Shield so it should still have that feel. I fear that too many things may not have received the depth I had hoped for.

Going from the beta I find ArmA 3 to be a let down and I sincerely hope Takedown doesn't follow suit. Guess I will know soon enough.

Yeah. The trailer is awfull and harmful for the game. The gameplay video that I saw didn't make me too enthusiastic but made me want to buy and play the game.

If you find Arma 3 to be a let down, by no means I can understand you have good expectations for this. I mean, Arma is great at some things like outdoors intense and immersive infantry gameplay, and looks very good giving the massive scale and wide scope.

However I have seen nothing great in Takedown yet. Maybe the maps is the best aspect they have showed. But clunky animations, ugly holo sights, character models, poor weapon customization, little SP content are dissapointing. It doesn't seem they are offering too much of the goals they must pursue in its genre. Not to mention they haven't shown AI yet.

I understand they have a low budget and have little time to develop the game, so it's meritable what they are delivering. But expecting something from this, being dissapointed by Arma 3 its very weird.

[Flogger23m 2]

After playing the alpha the core gameplay left me with a Raven Shield feeling which I consider to be a good thing. How the final game ends up is still up for debate, but I am hoping for the best. As an SP player, the quality of the AI and command system will really be what makes or breaks the game for me. I hope today or tomorrow we will get more insight into how the SP, planning and AI/command system is.

I also really dislike the scope system (old ArmA 1/2 style) which is enough to make me not want to use scopes in Takedown just like I avoided them in ArmA 1/2. I really wanted RO2 style scopes, but would have been fine with ArmA 3/GRAW style scopes. I will be using Eotechs/iron sights exclusively unless I absolutely need a scope. :p

Here is another video I found on different forum:

http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/l6nmnx/takedown--red-sabre-facility-map-first-look

Far better than the trailer. They need a video showing how the planning phase looks as that is a central feature of the genre. From what I understand it will be more like SWAT, with a 3D map (sort of like Raven Shield) but with no waypoint placing for AI.

[Smurf 12]

The Tactical Ops comparison was more graphic wise; A zoom on ejecting brass without moving bolt? C'mon...

And while it resembles RS somehow I was expecting some more door stacking, breach'n'clear, go-codes and all that tacticool thing that made R6 so nice instead of tapping keys the expose little of your body and Takedown a clueless AI. I believe if you play with some like minded players it can be fun, but even CS can be tactical on those circumstances (and I mean it, go play some cs_office with friendly fire on, things get serious!). Anyway I'm not dropping this yet as the guy behind it has some pedigree.