Suppression Effect missing in ARMA3

[scrim 1]

Yeah, because you're totally better at determining the best course of action when being shot at than an actual soldier is...

[seamusgod 1]

actually, yes. since i'm not under fire or stress and can make logical analytic decisions.

[scrim 1]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you forgot to include the "I'm just a computer game 'soldier' " part in that equation, Mr. Humble.

[seamusgod 1]

i'm pretty sure being reduced to a screaming mess behind barely adequate cover on the downward slope of a hill facing enemy fire was not the result of carefully calculated decisions.

the point isn't that i'd have done better than the guy in the video, it's that people do not make the best decisions when under fire and that is the result of real physiological response to stress that should be modeled.

[scrim 1]

The point is you have pretty much no idea what you're talking about, because you're an arm chair soldier, which makes you look ridiculous when commenting negatively on how trained, experienced real soldiers act in combat. Seriously, it's ridiculous.

[Smurf 12]

Hello! Can we get back to this since a discussion about it was started on the AI thread and I don't want to derail that?

Where we are: There is no supression effects at all. No increased sway, special effects or anything. AI isn't affected by it either and worst, doesn't use it.

Where we were: In A2 you had increased sway+heavy breathing sounds and a somewhat increased brightness (or was mods? Don't recall). Nothing for AI.

Where we are headed: ?

__________

Look at this, BF4, WIP\Placeholder and bugged effect but it kind of works. I wouldn't want something like that, nor what is in BF3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31LX4_K1_5o

[metalcraze 290]

Where we were: In A2 you had increased sway+heavy breathing sounds and a somewhat increased brightness (or was mods? Don't recall). Nothing for AI.

Except BIS has cut even that out in 1.62 I think which is the worst possible decision they've made for ArmA2 next to releasing ACR.

TPWCAS tried to bring some of it back but player suppression won't sync in MP and you may as well think it's not there. IIRC tpw and/or co. said it's due to hardcoded limitations of the engine.

Speaking about that undying "mods will fix it!" excuse

Edited August 2, 2013 by metalcraze

[Smurf 12]

I really liked what was done in that mod, it was subtle yet effective and authentic (heh).

Many people doesn't seems to like a supression system (for players): http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=5645

Probably because they relate it to something like BF3 did (which is bad) or because they think that the players life is enough reason to make people think twice.

Can't agree with that; there are fisiological body responses to that (unless you are a stone cold war veteran) and it's a basic infantry tactic that should have somekind of representation ingame.

[-Coulum- 35]

Yeah it at least needs to be in for ai. The biggest problem with teh suppression system that a2 had was that bullets snapping by didn't cause suprpession - only those that impacted within .5 metres. the suppression "bubble" in real life is about 1.5 metres radius around the head which could probably be increased because in arma you aren't as aware of just how much danger you might be in as in real life.

Otherwise the effects themselves in arma 2 were pretty good - if anything they were other the top (the length it lasted for). lack of hold breath and extra twitching for a couple seconds after each shot would be fine.

and it's a basic infantry tactic that should have somekind of representation ingame.

Yeah pretty much. Its virtually nonexistent in arma yet in reality it is the building blocks of tactics in a firefight. Unfortunately I think this topic is doomed to go in circles forever though.

I think we can all agree that ai need something extra - but then to some it seems like the ai is at an unfair disadvantage and the player should be brought to down to play on an even playing field...

[metalcraze 290]

It has to do with many people simply wanting to score frags without thinking. It's a fact that most people play with respawn/revive and thus "it's enough that we will think twice about our char's life" is just an excuse.

Same reason why people complain about recoil or fatigue effects. They all add new layers of complexity to gameplay and that doesn't help if you want to just score a frag the moment you see an enemy like in arcade shootboxes.

And unfortunately it seems that BIS is on their side (what's with the aforementioned cutting out of the effect) so much needed player suppression probably won't make it into ArmA3 even through mods.

[-Coulum- 35]

It has to do with many people simply wanting to score frags without thinking. It's a fact that most people play with respawn/revive and thus "it's enough that we will think twice about our char's life" is just an excuse.

Same reason why people complain about recoil or fatigue effects. They all add new layers of complexity to gameplay and that doesn't help if you want to just score a frag the moment you see an enemy like in arcade shootboxes.

And unfortunately it seems that BIS is on their side (what's with the aforementioned cutting out of the effect) so much needed player suppression probably won't make it into ArmA3 even through mods.

I don't think that its simply because people want to score frags (though I am sure some of the "newer" players want exactly that). Rather I think some people genuinely think that real engagements play out like in arma - quick, brutal and unforgiving and lightning fast.

I know I used to think that was what real firefights were like (back when I was playing Ghost recon and rainbow six) but after reading war journals/article and having the pleasure to talk to some vets I started to realize that firefights aren't as simple as "you see him first and you kill him instantly". I was shocked when I first read an article about a platoon sized firefight stretching out 4 hours until ammo was expended and a coordinated retreat had to be made - and all with only a couple WIA and no KIA. It started to make me think that maybe ghost recon and arma weren't so realisitic after all...

[metalcraze 290]

The main problem here however is that we as players know that nothing on the screen is real. There's no psychological pressure or fear and thus unless you will kill a player - he will calmly return fire until he kills you.

It's the reason why even arcade games add suppression effects - because devs know the above and they want to make their shooters more interesting than just "put a crosshair over the enemy and hit fire". In a shooter where you die in 2-3 hits which coincidentally is what even Battlefield is now - they give a player that's being shot at some chance of survival since even returning more or less precise fire can save his virtual life.

Even arcade shooter devs are starting to realize that. And yet BIS hits that pedal to the metal trying to get away from "simulator" so hard that ArmA is now more arcade than arcade shooters in many ways.

[-Coulum- 35]

The main problem here however is that we as players know that nothing on the screen is real. There's no psychological pressure or fear and thus unless you will kill a player - he will calmly return fire until he kills you.

It's the reason why even arcade games add suppression effects - because devs know the above and they want to make their shooters more interesting than just "put a crosshair over the enemy and hit fire". In a shooter where you die in 2-3 hits which coincidentally is what even Battlefield is now - they give a player that's being shot at some chance of survival since even returning more or less precise fire can save his virtual life.

No disagreeing with you there, in addition to "no psychological pressure or fear" a players priorities in game are totally different to the average soldier in reality. In reality "sane" people will always focus on staying alive first - even if it is purely subsconcsious and they are not aware of it - we are animals after all. Understandably, in arma and any video game really, its all about getting the kills. Staying alive after is just a bonus.

[Anachoretes 10]

Why you want unrealistic method when you already have realistic one? You sit behind the monitor and you have are fear and you know that someone press you. Visual effects or debuffs needed only for little kids who can't understand whats going on. This is immersive simulator - and this is step to role-play games. Maybe, we need helmet "-5 supression" or "+5 fatigue"? And i'm trying to not playing with those peoples who need this to be adequate in game. And Arma not about kills. I mean you must avoid to play with someone who think so.

Kids must play in BF3, we don't need to ruin tha game for them by adding additional "effects". Is you don't scare for you 3D soldier, so go away. This is good policy. I playing BF3 and i'm noticed that this doesn't help to avoid the problem with terminators.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Anachoretes

[progamer 14]

When in a firefight, I know sticking my head out could easily mean certain death, too me that's suppression.

[Anachoretes 10]

And "fisiological body responses" increase the ability of a fighter, and not reduce it.

[progamer 14]

And "fisiological body responses" increase the ability of a fighter, and not reduce it.

Yea, adrenaline kicks in. Your body doesn't get weaker when you face death, it gets stronger, faster and better to avoid death.

[Anachoretes 10]

Yes, this system can work.

Because the soldier becomes sluggish if body is overwhelmed by this hormone. Trained body used noradrenaline which works better with arterial pressure but doesn't cause tissue anoxia.

But I highly doubt that someone will create such a complex system.

Well then, let's talk about pilots with their G-overloads. Maybe, shelshock? If do, then do it in complex.

Supression is an actual tactic and should be represented somehow

Oh god. Just take you machinegun and represent it.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Anachoretes

[EuroSlave 1]

Suppression works as intended without the need for BF3 style bullshit.

[twisted 128]

I think that being shoot at should sharpen our reflexes. The fizyoligy is enhanced by lack of intelligent thought, just like the last couple posts so aptly demonstrate. So the screen should sharpen, unblur things even.

Heightened senses scream out for survival as being hit in game equals death. And we know the price we will pay for sticking our head out calmly in a mad fire fight is the terrible respawn and have to run to the battle. Maybe we have many miles to run with fatigue effects which is also very inconvenient. and maybe we'll miss being part of the action winning the fight.

Also adrenalin surge makes muscles stronger, so recoil can be less except for prone because muscles don't help when prone.

I've also heard that time seems to slow when under mad life threatening stress so perhaps a single time distillation effect would be possible?

However, AI should be affected by being shot at with lack of accuracy as they are too accurate now anyway.

Edited August 2, 2013 by twisted

[dmarkwick 261]

I think that being shoot at should sharpen our reflexes. The fizyoligy is enhanced by lack of intelligent thought, just like the last couple posts so aptly demonstrate. So the screen should sharpen, unblur things even.

Heightened senses scream out for survival as being hit in game equals death. And we know the price we will pay for sticking our head out calmly in a mad fire fight is the terrible respawn and have to run to the battle. Maybe we have many miles to run with fatigue effects which is also very inconvenient. and maybe we'll miss being part of the action winning the fight.

Also adrenalin surge makes muscles stronger, so recoil can be less except for prone because muscles don't help when prone.

I've also heard that time seems to slow when under mad life threatening stress so perhaps a single time distillation effect would be possible?

However, AI should be affected by being shot at with lack of accuracy as they are too accurate now anyway.

Yes, this is an old discussion and everyone has their own view and recommendations on how to solve it. I don't believe that making the player more effective is the answer though, because it goes against what the purpose of suppression is.

Basically as I see it there are two issues:

1. People don't like abstraction. They don't like that levels of blur and shake are there not to simulate what you *actually* see, but to give you an alternative reason to keep down/hidden. It doesn't make you completely useless, just less effective and makes you choose your moment very carefully.

2. People don't like being "told" that they're being suppressed by any effect, they can do that themselves. Understandable. Not everyone can or does do this, but some people who do, can decide not to, with little consequence other than a loss of time (as they respawn/restart mission). The practical effect of suppression shouldn't really impact too much on people who already act as though genuinely suppressed, but should impact largely on people who take risks.

IMO natch ;)

[Anachoretes 10]

DMarkwick

Oh. And then, some guy will make a strong statement that these effects cause dizziness and cramps....

But all this abstraction's is wrong. It is excusable for Battlefield, but not for Arma. Supression is are combat situation - not more. In Arma we have everything to represent this. And risking people get shots. It's real punishment for McClaud's family. I'm not think that this is something important for skirmish right now.

And in fact, I play Arma precisely because it shows everything as it is. Without a mouse maze, crutches, etc.

[batto 17]

The main problem here however is that we as players know that nothing on the screen is real. There's no psychological pressure or fear and thus unless you will kill a player - he will calmly return fire until he kills you.

You can't blame game for it. If the player you're shooting at calmly returns fire and kills you it's your problem. You complain how easy it is to "put a crosshair over the enemy and hit fire" and yet you are unable to kill and get killed by player that is not facing you.

No one at BIS should listen to players crying about other players aiming faster.

Only thing that I don't like much is that player can be pretty accurate even when he survives shot from you. Not sure if something needs to be done with it. But unless you hit him there's no reason he should have any disadvantage.

I die from players returning fire all the time. I don't understand why should I blame anyone beside me for it. It's my fault. I should've picked better shot.

It's the reason why even arcade games add suppression effects - because devs know the above and they want to make their shooters more interesting than just "put a crosshair over the enemy and hit fire". In a shooter where you die in 2-3 hits which coincidentally is what even Battlefield is now - they give a player that's being shot at some chance of survival since even returning more or less precise fire can save his virtual life.

Even arcade shooter devs are starting to realize that. And yet BIS hits that pedal to the metal trying to get away from "simulator" so hard that ArmA is now more arcade than arcade shooters in many ways.

Arcade military-looking games include "Bloody screen. So real!". They balance lack of realism by illusion of realism.

If "put a crosshair over the enemy and hit fire" seems unrealistic then I'm fine with some kind of disadvantage when aiming for all players. There's nothing special about situations where bullets fall nearby from countless other stressful situations that game engine just can't simulate.

Oh, and of course AI should show some signs of suppression. AI is AI. I decide my gameplay for myself.

Edited August 2, 2013 by batto

[-Coulum- 35]

The purpose of suppression effects on the player is not that it looks "realistic", because there's a whole lot of anecdotal evidence that suppression effects IRL arre not like ingame.

The purpose is to give a real ingame reason to take & keep cover. "Fear" cannot be induce in a game, maybe annoyance or inconvenience can, but not fear. Annoyance & inconvenience can be induced by long/no respawn times.

Suppression can be induced by making the player be less effective when he's exposed to incoming fire. Why pop your head over for a superb crackshot when it cannot be done? Not saying you cannot pop your head over & return fire - of course you can. And even have that fire be effective. Just... you have some sort of temporary increase in ineffectiveness to give you a real ingame reason to not take risks.

Whether that suppression effect is visual or physical... a matter of taste I suppose, but as long as the mechanic is there, it'll be good.

Well even against properly trained enemies you won't start shaking if you are eperienced enough. But that being said, soldiers don't start going rambo in reality. This is not because it would be an ineffective course of action but rather because there life is not something they want to put at risk, even if it is just a small risk. In arma however risking your life is not nearly as big a deal and so players are more inclined to do things that a soldier in reality wouldn't do (ie go rambo). The shake, tunnel vision blurring etc. isn't to simulate anything (although they aren't exactly far fetched) but simply to encourage the player to act in a more realistic manner. This is essential for getting more realistic overall gameplay.

Because I am lazy and I know this is probably pointless to argue and bound to circle yet again, I have just quoted some of what was said before in defense of suppression.

I think that being shoot at should sharpen our reflexes. The fizyoligy is enhanced by lack of intelligent thought, just like the last couple posts so aptly demonstrate. So the screen should sharpen, unblur things even. Heightened senses scream out for survival as being hit in game equals death. And we know the price we will pay for sticking our head out calmly in a mad fire fight is the terrible respawn and have to run to the battle. Maybe we have many miles to run with fatigue effects which is also very inconvenient. and maybe we'll miss being part of the action winning the fight. Also adrenalin surge makes muscles stronger, so recoil can be less except for prone because muscles don't help when prone. I've also heard that time seems to slow when under mad life threatening stress so perhaps a single time distillation effect would be possible? However, AI should be affected by being shot at with lack of accuracy as they are too accurate now anyway."]I think that being shoot at should sharpen our reflexes. The fizyoligy is enhanced by lack of intelligent thought, just like the last couple posts so aptly demonstrate. So the screen should sharpen, unblur things even. Heightened senses scream out for survival as being hit in game equals death. And we know the price we will pay for sticking our head out calmly in a mad fire fight is the terrible respawn and have to run to the battle. Maybe we have many miles to run with fatigue effects which is also very inconvenient. and maybe we'll miss being part of the action winning the fight. Also adrenalin surge makes muscles stronger, so recoil can be less except for prone because muscles don't help when prone. I've also heard that time seems to slow when under mad life threatening stress so perhaps a single time distillation effect would be possible? However, AI should be affected by being shot at with lack of accuracy as they are too accurate now anyway

I guess you had a change of heart?

Adreneline can have many positive effects (though I think the increased heart and breath rate would mess up

aiming some in real life) but the big question is will these positive effects see any use. In real life adrenaline might clear your head and fine tune your senses, but it will also tell you to duck down into cover and hide especially if the enemy is in a far or unknown position.

In arma there is no real motivation to duck down and hide like a real soldier would, aside from virtual death which imo isn't even close to important enough - I care about getting hit more in paintball, let alone a real firefight where my life would be on the line.

Suppression is a gamey mechanic that is necessary for realistic overall gameplay. Besides BF3 look at the games that have it - red orchestra, americas army, Insurgency, Project reality, VBS2. All games (or simulators) that have a very high priority on realism. There is a reason they have suppression effects and its not because its unrealistic and makes for arcadey gameplay.

[Anachoretes 10]

In arma there is no real motivation to duck down and hide like a real soldier would

You trolling? Spotted enemy or vehicle or whatever - it's not are motivation? Machine gun working at you - it's not are motive? Or you want to detect enemy by smell and waiting orders from nanosuit? And If someone are bad player and don't scare for his life - who cares? It's not are reason to bring the game to arcade mode.

though I think the increased heart and breath rate would mess up aiming some in real life

Trained human adapt to adrenaline and avoid tremor and dyspnea. But we play soldiers - it's mean something.