Suppression Effect missing in ARMA3

[scrim 1]

Seriously, how could this become 25 pages long? If you have the AI on a pathetic skill level, put them on a higher level. If people on the other team in a TvT can't shoot for shit, then they can't suppress you either. Suppressing someone is to fire rounds that land so close to them that were they to put their heads up, they'd lose them. If the fire isn't accurate enough to kill you if you would peek out, then guess what, it's not suppressive fire. If that's not good enough, seriously, go play BF3.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

scrim, this ain't about TvT, because not once has this come up in proper PVP circles, rather, this is AI bot commanders crying that it ain't difficult enough.

BF3 doesn't have bo@ts, so that's a no-go. LOL

---------- Post added at 10:47 ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 ----------

nicely and simply said.

important thing is that if BIS includes it the playing field is then level for all players.

Look at the God-damn definition above.

Suppression is already in the game.

If you peeps are talking about AI ONLY, then name your threads accordingly, so we wouldn't have to shift thru bullshit that is aiming to impose some REALISTIX tactic00l style on us, when we've been fine & dandy for a decade.

[Variable 322]

If you have the AI on a pathetic skill level, put them on a higher level.

What does that have to do with anything?

If people on the other team in a TvT can't shoot for shit, then they can't suppress you either.

How can that be true? Do you even know what suppression means?

If the fire isn't accurate enough to kill you if you would peek out, then guess what, it's not suppressive fire.

Suppressive fire do not has to be that accurate, that's what makes it that effective. Anything that buzzes past you in less than 10 meters has a big potential to suppress you. It's not even an intentional thing. Your body will react and put you down in cover.

If that's not good enough, seriously, go play BF3.

Given your logic, I suggest COD for you.

[nikita320106 0]

what you think about this formula??

_stress = (_over_head_supressiv_radius - _distance_to_bullet) + _fatigue +_damage*10;

player setFatigue _stress;

no one forces player to change anims or blur his view

??

and remember we are can't count bullet over head

[Variable 322]

Suppression is already in the game.

It's not in Arma 3 at all. In Arma 2 suppression works for AI and players only if the bullets impact nearby. In real life rounds don't have to impact near you to suppress you. It's enough to fly past you. If they are close enough, you will be pinned down.

we've been fine & dandy for a decade.

We are here to help you understand that it can be even better :). This franchise has a goal, and it is to bring you the most authentic battle experience there is. Suppression is a MAJOR factor in infantry behavior, reaction and thought process. Without it, the simulation is just bad.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

How can that be true? Do you even know what suppression means?

Suppressive fire do not has to be that accurate, that's what makes it that effective. Anything that buzzes past you in less than 10 meters has a big potential to suppress you. It's not even an intentional thing. Your body will react and put you down in cover.

ROFL, what is this bullshit again - "body will react and put you down in cover" & "Suppressive fire do not has to be that accurate"?

Have you missed the definition of what suppression actually is?

"As noted elsewhere, suppression is only effective if the enemy truly believes that they will be shot or killed if they don't take cover from the incoming enemy fire."

If YOU are not hitting anywhere near my loc, you think I'll hunker down & start crying so you could relocate to a better vantage point & finish me off? Dream on.

GREAT THREAD!

[scrim 1]

scrim, this ain't about TvT, because not once has this come up in proper PVP circles, rather, this is AI bot commanders crying that it ain't difficult enough.

BF3 doesn't have bo@ts, so that's a no-go. LOL

---------- Post added at 10:47 ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 ----------

Look at the God-damn definition above.

Suppression is already in the game.

If you peeps are talking about AI ONLY, then name your threads accordingly, so we wouldn't have to shift thru bullshit that is aiming to impose some REALISTIX tactic00l style on us, when we've been fine & dandy for a decade.

Fine, then it's just about having "AI on a pathetic skill level, put them on a higher level."

Variable: Actually, I'm bored so I could use something funny.

No, my body will not ever react to bullets, unless it's about getting actually hit. The reason for that is that bullets are not natural, and as such, my body can't naturally respond to them. On the other hand, my mind knows that bullets are dangerous. That means that I'll take the decision to go into cover when I register bullets impacting around me. If I then see that the bullets are flying all over the place, and that exposing myself to return fire wouldn't be very risky at all, I'd do that.

And for the third time in a short period of time in this thread: "As noted elsewhere, suppression is only effective if the enemy truly believes that they will be shot or killed if they don't take cover from the incomming enemy fire."

That means: If you can't hit so close to the guy that were he to pop up, he'd get hit, you're not suppressing him. Unless of course it's a completely untrained militiaman. How many of us play as that?

Edited April 8, 2013 by scrim

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

In real life rounds don't have to impact near you to suppress you. It's enough to fly past you. If they are close enough, you will be pinned down.

You speak for yourself, alright?

If they're "flying past me", I'll be the Judge whether that warrants taking cover or not, alright?

Variable: That is just so ridicolous the only way I'd respond to it would be for the comedic value.

I agree, hilarious thread.

++DoublePlusGood++ Would read again.

[lightspeed_aust 681]

My two cents...

The idea that you need to add some imaginary effects to Arma3 to simulate suppression is complete bollox. If the rounds are landing close enough in this game then you are ( by default) suppressed because you know if you stick your head out there's a very real chance that you're going to lose it.

If the rounds aren't that close, then you won't 'feel' suppressed because you aren't.

Don't need any BS.

[Variable 322]

No, my body will not ever react to bullets, unless it's about getting actually hit. The reason for that is that bullets are not natural, and as such, my body can't naturally respond to them.

Natural hehehehehe, yeah...

Clearly you and your friend here have no idea what it's like to be fired at.

[-Coulum- 35]

http://ttp2.dslyecxi.com/basic_rifleman.html

Suppressive Fire

This is the act of putting a high volume of fire on an enemy position to prevent them from being able to return effective fire.

Note that suppression is only effective if you can make the enemy believe that popping up to return fire is going to result in them being hit or killed.

You don't have to actually hit them, but you must make them think that you can and might if they don't take cover. Suppression can be used to "fix" an enemy force while another element moves around to their flank to catch them in their unprotected or otherwise vulnerable side.

Suppressive fire is typically done at a very rapid rate to begin with, which achieves fire superiority. Once fire superiority has been achieved, the suppressing element can slow the pace of their fire to facilitate ammo management, provided that they aim and pace their shots in a fashion that maintains effective suppression of the enemy.

http://ttp2.dslyecxi.com/tactics.html

Tactical Definitions

The following definitions cover some of the more significant aspects of the employment of team-level tactics. These are important to understand for the purposes of the remainder of this page's content.

Suppression

Suppression is the act of using fire and the threat of fire to deter enemy fire or action, as well as 'fix' the enemy in one place. As noted elsewhere, suppression is only effective if the enemy truly believes that they will be shot or killed if they don't take cover from the incoming enemy fire.

Nice find. I bolded some parts. Its alot easier to believe that you are going to get hit in reality when you know that that hit could kill you. In arma, meh, why not play some russian roulette, worst that can happen is I go to spectator mode and have to wait until the next match. Best that can happen is I snipe that guy putting rounds all around me. Priorities are different in reality.

Even Dslyecxi the author of your first quote seems to see the reasoning behind suppression effects

Under "Visual Effects"

Ostfront uses visual effects to influence gameplay in a number of ways. The most noticeable are the blurring effects - one is used when being shot at, and one occurs when explosions go off near you.

When being shot at, the screen blurs slightly each time a round passes nearby. This makes suppression a viable tactic, as the player being suppressed is very much aware that he's being shot at and also can't see as clearly as he otherwise would be able to, and it works without resorting to some gamey solution like some competitors where the player's aim is actually degraded when rounds fly past. It's a simple but elegant solution to the "suppression" issue, and it works brilliantly.

Under "damage handling, wounding and close calls"

Red Orchestra did a very good job with the way in which it made weapon fire and explosions have an effect upon players. Artillery and grenades going off would blur the screen temporarily, while near misses from bullets would cause a slight blur each time one passed nearby. This managed to add an actual true form of suppression, without resorting to "gamey" solutions like America's Army's system actually lowering your 'accuracy' bar when you're taking fire. In Red Orchestra, a machinegunner putting rounds over your head is going to blur your screen enough such that you may not be able to immediately return fire with the kind of precision that you'd be able to in other games. Likewise, being in the midst of an artillery barrage is going to give you such a degree of blur that you'll be unable to do much aside from get the hell out of the danger area and seek cover.

He's the guy who wrote your first bit of "proof" that suppression effects shouldn't be in bud. I don't claim that he wants what I want, but he does seem to recognize the need/use of a suppression system.

Suppressive fire do not has to be that accurate, that's what makes it that effective.

If it was a requirement to be that accurate to suppress an enemy in reality then what would even be the point. Wait until the sucker pops up and shoot him. This doesn't happen in reality because you don't have time to line up those shots, and you don't have to put a round so close to an enemy it would hit to send to get them to fear for their safety enough to duck down. In the majority of cases that is.

No, my body will not ever react to bullets, unless it's about getting actually hit. The reason for that is that bullets are not natural, and as such, my body can't naturally respond to them. On the other hand, my mind knows that bullets are dangerous. That means that I'll take the decision to go into cover when I register bullets impacting around me. If I then see that the bullets are flying all over the place, and that exposing myself to return fire wouldn't be very risky at all, I'd do that.

Ha, its actually a good creative explanation/reasoning but I think its wrong. See. Clearly the body and mind react to incoming fire/ close calls with death independently of your mind. Or maybe that's just for us mere mortals.

Given your logic, I suggest COD for you.

Please, leave that shit for them to do. Its one of their main arguments.

[metalcraze 290]

All this Elite Tier 1 talk about how "bullets that just pass me by will never suppress me! I'm that awesome" and then you remember that video with a war journo who has been to combat areas before - a single bullet passes by somewhere and he just hits the ground and can't talk for 2 minutes, just breathing heavily.

Of course soldiers would be better trained but that doesn't mean that they are "in control of their mind and body FEN SHUI KUNG FU". You can't tell if a sonic crack was 5m away or 1.

People should at least watch some war docus from Afghanistan and Iraq where it's always goes like "we are going on patrol, a bullet passes by, everybody jumps into cover and starts firing around trying to suppress wherever that came from, in the end 1000 bullets fired, 1-2 kills, sometimes none".

But that's bullshit of course! I'm in control of my mind and body, I can just snipe people under fire with single bullets like an Elite Tier 1 Operator.

Edited April 8, 2013 by metalcraze

[dmarkwick 261]

Well this thread has gone from discussion to ridicule, thanks to certain gamer leet dudes who cannot fathom the difference between gameplay mechanic and what they see. Guess the useful part of this discussion has come to an end.

a machinegunner putting rounds over your head is going to blur your screen enough such that you may not be able to immediately return fire with the kind of precision that you'd be able to in other games.

Edited April 8, 2013 by DMarkwick

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Nice find. I bolded some parts. Its alot easier to believe that you are going to get hit in reality when you know that that hit could kill you. In arma, meh, why not play some russian roulette, worst that can happen is I go to spectator mode and have to wait until the next match. Best that can happen is I snipe that guy putting rounds all around me. Priorities are different in reality.

Yeah, no shit, but it's a game, SHOCKER.

ACE2 does it right, but it isn't bullet suppression effect of any kind,

At 0:44 onward, they get hit by 30 mm high explosive rounds from a BMP-2, resulting in wounds, bleeding, hearing loss, mild concussion and some other "features".

That is what is needed to remind the player of his own mortality in the game, not some FLASH-bullet goes by-FLASH screen blur. That and sharper bullet cracks like in ACE 2 SM - even vanilla ArmA II had more threatening sounds, than we currently have in Alpha.

[froggyluv 2136]

^^^LOL- kinda undermines your point when you keep bringing Dyslecxi's group and tactics guide up and yet clearly above he approves of the visual effect of suppression :rolleyes:

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

^^^LOL- kinda undermines your point when you keep bringing Dyslecxi's group and tactics guide up and yet clearly above he approves of the visual effect of suppression :rolleyes:

Subjective opinions again.

I used the guide to define what suppression is, which, more likely than not, was pulled from some military SOP manual with him being ex-Army AFAIR.

Carry on.

[liquidpinky 11]

People should at least watch some war docus from Afghanistan and Iraq where it's always goes like "we are going on patrol, a bullet passes by, everybody jumps into cover and starts firing around trying to suppress wherever that came from, in the end 1000 bullets fired, 1-2 kills, sometimes none".

But that's bullshit of course! I'm in control of my mind and body, I can just snipe people under fire with single bullets like an Elite Tier 1 Operator.

So, do you think they got some shitty blur and false shake effect or did they use common sense and GTFO the line of fire meanwhile attempting to hit bullets close enough to their assailents and forcing them to do the same?

Common sense tells you to get into cover, how do we simulate that?

[dmarkwick 261]

Hmm. Facts when they agree with you, opinions when they don't ;)

---------- Post added at 12:06 ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 ----------

Common sense tells you to get into cover, how do we simulate that?

Easy one. You give them an alternative ingame reason to not try to pixel-snipe the incoming machinegun fire. I mean - if you're already "imaginatively suppressed" anyway, I don't see how an extra little bit of visual effect can make much difference anyway...? The effect is more to dissuade gamey twitch sniping.

[scrim 1]

All this Elite Tier 1 talk about how "bullets that just pass me by will never suppress me! I'm that awesome" and then you remember that video with a war journo who has been to combat areas before - a single bullet passes by somewhere and he just hits the ground and can't talk for 2 minutes, just breathing heavily.

..............

People should at least watch some war docus from Afghanistan and Iraq where it's always goes like "we are going on patrol, a bullet passes by, everybody jumps into cover and starts firing around trying to suppress wherever that came from, in the end 1000 bullets fired, 1-2 kills, sometimes none".

1, No, we say that when bullets pass close to us, we use common sense, i.e. we don't start shooting back, we take cover. And if the guy shooting at me can't hit me when I'm unaware and in the open, then how do you think it reasonable that I would pop out and instantly hit him?

And a war correspondent's reaction is hardly that of a trained soldier.

2, Excuse me? No, despite the popular myth about "them soldier boys use spray and pray at everything they see when they hear one shot", that's not how it works. If you can find me a film clearly depicting a squad/platoon out on a patrol, that responds to a single shot by firing a thousand rounds, a death blossom all around them without having even the slightest idea of where it came from, I'll say bravo.

[liquidpinky 11]

Hmm. Facts when they agree with you, opinions when they don't ;)

Tis the way of the netz.

I agree it is a tactic and agree that perhaps something is needed, I just am concerned about how it happens.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Hmm. Facts when they agree with you, opinions when they don't ;)

Look, pal, you can't quantify your bullshit blur effect and "your bodyeh will force you down", when bullets start flying around.

But as always - Good luck!!

[dmarkwick 261]

Tis the way of the netz.

I agree it is a tactic and agree that perhaps something is needed, I just am concerned about how it happens.

Yeah that seems to be the sticking point: how to actually create the gameplay mechanic. The problem is that it most probably needs to be a minor visual or accuracy-based mechanic, and people have objections to both.

---------- Post added at 12:12 ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 ----------

Look, pal, you can't quantify your bullshit blur effect and "your bodyeh will force you down", when bullets start flying around.

But as always - Good luck!!

Well I have, plenty of times (aside from the "your bodyeh will force you down" jibe, which seems to be entirely your own construct). But, thanks for dragging a previously civilised discussion down to this level. Appreciate it.

[Brain 12]

Personally I think we should let people who had actually been under fire in real life handle this discussion. We can talk as much as we want and there won't be any progress nor a final realistic solution. I personally know a few inside the forums here, maybe they're going to talk? ;)

[[frl]myke 14]

May i remember the remaining guests in this thread to keep the discussion civilized. Or would you prefer to have the thread closed? Your decision, Gentlemen.

[dmarkwick 261]

Personally I think we should let people who had actually been under fire in real life handle this discussion. We can talk as much as we want and there won't be any progress nor a final realistic solution. I personally know a few inside the forums here, maybe they're going to talk? ;)

The problem there is that the discussion will concentrate on what exactly the soldier sees when under suppression, and not the gameplay mechanic of needing to give actual reasons to dissuade from poking your head out for an accurate snapshot in a game :) The separation between visual effect and gameplay mechanic is one of the major issues here.

Edited April 8, 2013 by DMarkwick