[Video comparison] Bullet impacts on human targets

[Stuffy 1]

The kind of details that add nothing to a game ...

I strongly disagree. It adds a massive amount of immersion if the guy next to you gets shot and drops to the ground.

[-FHA-Dynamo 0]

"Bullet impacts on human targets" - shows video of Crisis, and a soldier getting hit on his ceramic trauma plate.. wants same effect in ArmA3... the Op needs to spend some time on liveleak and watch the whole Syria and Afghanistan section of uploads.

human bodies are heavy soft mostly squishy fluidy things. when high velocity things hits them, the transfer of momentum from the object to the body turns into tissue displacement (tissues move out of the way of the projectile in almost all directions..) or basically SPLAT! even large caliber rounds cause mostly dismemberment.. not the Hollywood throw back we have been conditioned to expect. there's even a video of dear being shot in the head by .308 rifle rounds, and the head simply turns it self inside out, but it dose not flail back in the direction of the shot. remember that bullets are designed to be sleek and cut through the air, and cut through tissues just as well. the reason why the US military has been thinking of returning to using larger caliber ammo is because the larger bullets create not only a larger wound channel, but can also fly further and pass through hardened targets better. the 5.56mm bullet is very effective against soft targets if shot at the velocity it was designed for (M16 length barrels). with the use of M4s, the velocity of the 5.56mm bullet is reduced, so what ends up happening, is that the 5.56mm bullet passes right through the target without tumbling, and thus causing less damage than it would at a higher speed where the bullet is designed to deform and tumble. in the end, a bullet will transfer as much of its momentum energy to the target as the shooter feels in his shoulder.

---------- Post added at 09:14 ---------- Previous post was at 09:12 ----------

I strongly disagree. It adds a massive amount of immersion if the guy next to you gets shot and drops to the ground.

if he drops like a sack of rice, sure.. if he flies back a few feet as if he hit the end of a rope, then no.

[Tulx 10]

Dynamo;2357948']shows video of Crisis' date=' and a soldier getting hit on his ceramic trauma plate.. wants same effect in ArmA3...

---------- Post added at 09:14 ---------- Previous post was at 09:12 ----------

if he drops like a sack of rice, sure.. if he flies back a few feet as if he hit the end of a rope, then no.

If you check the ArmA part of the video, I shot the soldier in the bulletproof vest there as well. I suppose another issue is that ArmA doesn't simulate those either - I'm pretty sure it's impossible for any kind of bullet to be stopped by body armour in ArmA, they just seem to mitigate a certain % of the damage.

I do appreciate that at least the rag-doll effect has been added in ArmA III, but this makes it even more apparent that no external kinetic force can be applied to human models by gunfire (I haven't tested how bodies behave when hit by vehicles). Now that the rag-doll effect is present it creates an "uncanny valley" - you see the body move close to realistically when falling down and expect it to behave more realistically in other similar circumstances as well. But if I were to hit a soldier in ArmA with a .50 sniper rifle, he would lump together on the spot just like when hit by the smallest handgun in the game.

[Stuffy 1]

Dynamo;2357948']

if he drops like a sack of rice' date=' sure.. if he flies back a few feet as if he hit the end of a rope, then no.[/quote']

Of course. I would only like to see some reaction of being shot. No movie-like 5m flying after being shot.

[Blaf 1]

Part of the arma design up until this point is the fAIr system where everything the AI can do, the player can do, and visa versa. If you had the AI falling down when you shot them, if BI is still using the fAIr design philosophy, then bullets would also have to cause the player to skip around and fall over too.

That would be great, seeing this in 1st person could really improve immersion of firefights (at least for me).

as in

Btw, this guy got shot four times and you might see there is no physical "blow back"

[Tulx 10]

That would be great, seeing this in 1st person could really improve immersion of firefights (at least for me).

as in

Btw, this guy got shot four times and you might see there is no physical "blow back"

Yet you don't see him just jogging along despite the hits. At 1:10 he gets hit at least one time and is forced down - if not by the force of the bullet (rather the shock and pain of the hit). I don't want to see handgun shots hurl enemies through widows with explosions in the background, only some more physical feedback when hit that would simulate the experience.

We already have the "suppression" effect that simulates the fear and adrenaline of near misses, so this would be a great addition in the same direction.

[rundll.exe 12]

so...

is not realistic? Boohoo!

No, seriously, the math that has already been stated here, simply proves that there is no "flying back" possible with normal caliber rounds. No sense in wasting time on this.

What would be nice, is some short time of "unconsciousness" for both the AI and the player, where you maybe do a short animation or even drop your weapon due to the shock, depending on where you were hit. However that would prolly be a hell to implement...

[Tulx 10]

What would be nice, is some short time of "unconsciousness" for both the AI and the player, where you maybe do a short animation or even drop your weapon due to the shock, depending on where you were hit. However that would prolly be a hell to implement...

This is exactly what I'm missing - a more distinct physical feedback to getting hit. Like we have physical feedback for getting nearly missed (the screen brightens and your aim shakes).

[samco 1]

what about one hit kills from 7.62x54Rmm against targets even at 600m with body armor in the alpha ?

Is it realistic ? Or its due to the fact that now in the alpha there aren't different types of body armor ?

I think even modern body armors can protect from such those bullets at distance..correct me if i am wrong

[CruiseMissile 10]

what about one hit kills from 7.62x54Rmm against targets even at 600m with body armor in the alpha ?

Is it realistic ? Or its due to the fact that now in the alpha there aren't different types of body armor ?

I think even modern body armors can protect from such those bullets at distance..correct me if i am wrong

As far as I'm aware there isn't 7.62x54Rmm in the game right now, "only" 7.62x51mm Nato, not that it makes much difference, they have roughly the same performance, but yeah, even the body armor provided today for most infantry soldiers can defeat a battle rifle round at that range, even half that range, but you have to keep in mind that the bullet doesn't have to penetrate to kill you. If you get shot in the chest your bones will crush and potentially stab you in the heart or puncture your lungs etc.

The big difference comes if the soldiers aren't wearing body armor, but flak vests, those are very easily penetrated, I was on tour with the Royal Danish Army in Afghanistan, and we were issued flak vests, those could be penetrated by a 5.56x45mm if the shot was taken from less than 150 meters. Let alone a 7.62x39mm would penetrate it upwards of 200 meters which was the nominal engagement range.

Not a surprise most people bought plates for their vests to have a reasonable chance of surviving a shot to the upper torso.

[Jex 1]

Doesn't the 1st video and the last one look the same? They both drop where they're hit?

[zatoichi 10]

Doesn't the 1st video and the last one look the same? They both drop where they're hit?

The Arma soldier is killed with the second shot. The point is, it would be nice to have the same natural reaction to being shot even non-fatally - realistic looking flinch/falling over temporarily/weapon dropping - rather than what we have at present.

[max power 21]

That would be great, seeing this in 1st person could really improve immersion of firefights (at least for me).

as in

Btw, this guy got shot four times and you might see there is no physical "blow back"

I personally wouldn't mind it either but I think players would get very frustrated if they were always getting knocked over and had to watch an unbreakable falldown / get back up / roll into prone position / whatever animation.

[toaster9123 1]

Most of the time, if your standing when you get you hit, you will fall the to ground in response to the force. If you have body armor, and get shot it feels the same as getting as getting hit by an MLB fastball going 90-120 MPH to the chest. If your not wearing armor, there are several common responses, sometimes, you will get hit and not even realize it, other times, you won't feel it, because you are dead. The caliber of the shot matters just about the most of anything. 7.62 have alot of drive but kinda go straight, 5.56 that NATO and especially the US uses, are designed to tumble when they hit flesh, this is the same reason, a .22 can easily be deadly, hit the top of the leg with a shot, bullet tumbles into arties.

[-FHA-Dynamo 0]

even with a plate hit, the target will only feel the same force as the shooter. the 7.62 does indeed over penetrate, but so does the 5.56 when fired from a short barrel (M4), instead of tumbling. the problem with 5.56 is that it can't punch through walls as effectively as the 7.62. a target will only get pushed off balance if they are standing up straight, the same way a shooter will get pushed off balance if he shoots while not leaning into the gun (often how women shoot, which is why it's so fun watching them). only real time when a target will stumble is if you get a lower limb hit.

Most of the time, if your standing when you get you hit, you will fall the to ground in response to the force. If you have body armor, and get shot it feels the same as getting as getting hit by an MLB fastball going 90-120 MPH to the chest. If your not wearing armor, there are several common responses, sometimes, you will get hit and not even realize it, other times, you won't feel it, because you are dead. The caliber of the shot matters just about the most of anything. 7.62 have alot of drive but kinda go straight, 5.56 that NATO and especially the US uses, are designed to tumble when they hit flesh, this is the same reason, a .22 can easily be deadly, hit the top of the leg with a shot, bullet tumbles into arties.

[instagoat 133]

The engine is technically capable of more complex physical impact simulation.

I think right now the damage system is still a little simplicistic. Body armour seems to apply to the whole body, not to parts actually covered by armour. Can somebody verify this?

VBS2 has segmented damage modelling as well as "only armour is armour" simulation:

[max power 21]

Most of the time, if your standing when you get you hit, you will fall the to ground in response to the force. If you have body armor, and get shot it feels the same as getting as getting hit by an MLB fastball going 90-120 MPH to the chest.

Were you reading the thread at all? Or watching the video of someone taking a point blank assault rifle to the armoured chest and not even flinching, then talking about how there's 'nothing to it'?

---------- Post added at 15:03 ---------- Previous post was at 14:59 ----------

The engine is technically capable of more complex physical impact simulation.

I think right now the damage system is still a little simplicistic. Body armour seems to apply to the whole body, not to parts actually covered by armour. Can somebody verify this?

VBS2 has segmented damage modelling as well as "only armour is armour" simulation:

I think it's just the way the models are set up. I haven't really messed with man classed things but you can get away with quite a bit in terms of setting up hit points (ie. points that you can hit) on other vehicles (in arma men are a subclass of vehicles).

[Insanatrix 0]

If you watch a model get hit by a bullet in slow motion in ArmA 3 you see them get hit and it takes awhile before the ragdoll physics take effect. I think that might be some of the issue in that the models just tend to fall over, there's no impart of energy on to the target, rather they just go limp. You can kind of see this when you shoot someone running and they kind of stop and then fall over in the direction they were running in. There's still some forward momentum, but the fact the model stopped to transition into the old style death animation and then goes into ragdoll, kind of makes it look a little unnatural. Ideally you would want the ragdolls to kick in the instant the object die's, not be a transition.

If you're standing still, you would still pretty much just fall over. Newton's Third law of Motion I believe, equal and opposite reaction. If someone getting hit by a bullet was going to go flying, then whoever shot the bullet would also go flying after firing. I'm fine with a little bit of Hollywoodness since I honestly don't need to see the gore and dismemberment, but it doesn't need to be some over the top bodies go flying like in Max Payne 2. The only thing that bugs me about the current ragdolls are when someone is moving and gets fatally shot and just stops and then falls over kind of unrealistically.

Also a quick question, are the properties of the ragdolls editable?

[PFC Magician 10]

I personally wouldn't mind it either but I think players would get very frustrated if they were always getting knocked over and had to watch an unbreakable falldown / get back up / roll into prone position / whatever animation.

well you can add a random factor.

we agree that there isnt a reaction forceback by bullet impact (real video: Drop the gun, move erratically)

regarding the current engine provides all vectors or not? I understand that the mass of a bullet can not move the mass of a body

but are all vectors impact formula?

When you fire a grenade at close range or higher mass impact hits on a body, what happens?

PD:i wanna see gore and dismemberment, burned

Edited March 29, 2013 by PFC Magician

[scrim 1]

The engine is technically capable of more complex physical impact simulation.

I think right now the damage system is still a little simplicistic. Body armour seems to apply to the whole body, not to parts actually covered by armour. Can somebody verify this?

Well, I have tried it with AI, and from what I can see body armour only seems to apply to the parts covered by the vest, if one is worn. However, it is sadly so weak you'd be forgiven for not understanding that there is actual armour there. Despite what modern body armour is capable of, in Arma 3 the best it can do is turn a killing shot into a seriously wounding shot, and that's a very rare case. I wrote a report on it over the the Feedback tracker if anyone's interested (http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=5377), though it's sadly facing militant resistance from people who insist that the reality will ruin their PvP experience...

[Tulx 10]

I wrote a report on it over the the Feedback tracker if anyone's interested (http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=5377), though it's sadly facing militant resistance from people who insist that the reality will ruin their PvP experience...

I wholeheartedly upvoted this. I think that your suggestion is actually a lot more imporant than my complaint about the physical feedback. While mine concearns the immersion of infantry combat, implementing yours could completely change the dynamic of firefigts in ArmA (for the better).

[maturin 12]

Dynamo;2358585']even with a plate hit' date=' the target will only feel the same force as the shooter. [/quote']

Just a minor correction (that applies to several otherwise correct posts): a bullet imparts an apparently higher force to the victim that the recoil of the weapon does to the shooter. Not just because the bullets loses a little velocity, but because the recoil is a force that is spaced out over the length of the barrel.

[zatoichi 10]

Just a minor correction (that applies to several otherwise correct posts): a bullet imparts an apparently higher force to the victim that the recoil of the weapon does to the shooter. Not just because the bullets loses a little velocity, but because the recoil is a force that is spaced out over the length of the barrel.

And the rubber stock/shooter is braced for recoil. It's easy to see why so many people fall over when unexpectedly hit, even in the chest plate.

[rye1 21]

And the rubber stock/shooter is braced for recoil. It's easy to see why so many people fall over when unexpectedly hit, even in the chest plate.

Is there a difference between AP/FMJ in that sense? If it penetrates, if it doesn't?

[cc_kronus 9]

the whole thing of impact of bullets in a body was shown in "mythbusters" (discovery channel) on episode 25 (2005) and revisited again in episode 38. In both cases, the myth that a body hit by a bullet is propelled backwards proved to be a hollywood made myth.