6.5 mm and recoil management in game

[-Coulum- 35]

Kick back is fine to my eyes. In fact I like it far better than arma 2 because it requires some skill to control. For those saying it is too high, try going to the editor and just controlling your bursts. A light pull down on the mouse while shooting and you can put a burst down range that is accurate enough. And also make sure to ask yourself, in what condition are you firing guns in real life?

My biggest problem with the recoil is that it is to slow.

Take an Opfor rifleman

go prone and aim at something through your ACOG sights

If you shoot your crosshair will move because of the recoil.

Observe how long it takes for your crosshair to stop moving.

I think that is the part that is actually wrong with the recoil. It doesn't snap, it goes up slowly.

This is actually what I like best about the rcoil. It gives you the option to try and compensate with the mouse. In arma 2 the reticle snaps down so fast that there is no point in trying to control it during the recoil. This is not so in Arma 3.

[4 IN 1 0]

The problem is that the game seems to be doing the old school "active" recoil management where you have to pull down and in ward towards body center of mass, and that is how people do things back into 90s, time had changed and now more and more people and trainers turn towards using more "passive" recoil management where they use their body to absorbs most energy transferred from the gun.

[Beagle 684]

...time had changed and now more and more people and trainers turn towards using more "passive" recoil management where they use their body to absorbs most energy transferred from the gun.

Now I understand that call for female Avatars all the time...it's all about

Edited March 8, 2013 by Beagle

[QuiteFranklyMyMaN 1]

Recoil is huge. Have to agree.

[twisted 128]

Recoil is ok for me on all weapons. Controlled fire is quite accurate even when doing the tactical jog. First thing i did actually to ensure i get a good feel for weapons. I don't expect full auto to be pin point accurate but on semi i can preyty much hit consistently quite far out.

However, an option to support weapons on a bipod or windowsill or wall and reduce recoil more in exchange for greatly reduced mobility is very needed for those must be 99% accurate long distance shots .

[mordeaniischaos 3]

Okay, lets see a video of someone NOT controlling recoil. If you don't correct for recoil, you aren't using proper marksmanship fundamentals. In real life, a gun will stay steady because the recoil is being controller by the shooter, not because guns don't have recoil. Show me a video of proper stance but without recoil being controlled by the shooter, and you'll see a very different thing. The last fucking thing I want is ArmA to automatically correct recoil by dragging the crosshair down. That is always incredibly disorienting to me, I'd MUCH rather be in control of that myself. I've played a few games lately that do that and it makes me incredibly innacurate on follow up shots. In real life, YOU bring the rifle back to give a correct sight picture. Why should it be different in a game?

[Hillsbills 1]

If you're controlling an avatar who is a trained shooter basic marksmanship stance should be assumed, it shouldn't require extra effort on your part to control that. If you don't control recoil and simply rest the rifle on something it's still going to fall back down after the shot, not be stuck skyward.

[gabe_ruckus 5]

There is too much recoil, and it's too simplistic to compare 6.5 to 5.56 or 7.62 without taking another moment to look at the recoil of common weapons in those calibers. The AK and SKS series are in a 7.62*39, and I have a MUCH easier time controlling the recoil with those rifles than I did with the M4/AR-15 series rifles. And those aren't bad, either. Hell, Piers Morgan can keep one on target, apparently. Whether it's due to the Russian ammo being lower grain or due to heavier weapons (Wood stock on the SKS especially was pretty heavy), I don't know, but they all handle like they were designed to fire a large amount of bullets accurately quickly (Designed to fire with low recoil if you hold it right).

I imagine the fictional guns in the game would be as easy to control for a trained user.

[-Coulum- 35]

I can't claim that the recoil is realistic (especially because the guns in game don't exist) but I do like the effect the recoil has on firefights currently. more recoil means you have to get closer to kill easily. Getting closer requires maneuvering. That requires fire superiority. Basically more tactics must be used with the current recoil - simply sitting on a hill and plinking away at the enemy is no longer as effective, partly due to the recoil. Therefore I like it the way it is.

[HKFlash 9]

I find 6.5 recoil to be OK. BLUFOR's 7.62 MX variant(?) definitely kicks back more and no worse than MK17 did in OA.

Never seen a 7.62mm MX rifle in game. How can I get to use it?

EDIT: Nevermind, its the MXM. You can't find it inside the default crates, AFAIK, must start as marksman.

[johncage 30]

I can't claim that the recoil is realistic (especially because the guns in game don't exist) but I do like the effect the recoil has on firefights currently. more recoil means you have to get closer to kill easily. Getting closer requires maneuvering. That requires fire superiority. Basically more tactics must be used with the current recoil - simply sitting on a hill and plinking away at the enemy is no longer as effective, partly due to the recoil. Therefore I like it the way it is.

except you can still do that, just by going prone or sitting down, so your argument is a little moot.

[GRS 10]

Notice how this muzzle never climbs above the horizon.

Cool, now notice how there is more to recoil than muzzle climb. To put it simply, the gun don't go straight up. I don't get why this is such a hard concept for the people in this thread.

In fact, by mechanical design, many guns, such as the M4, WILL bounce slightly to the side as well. Regardless, a video showing light muzzle climb means nothing, especially not at long ranges. You'll notice they did not show how tight his grouping was... Also, I'm not even talking about muzzle climb specifically, or at all really.

Hell, Piers Morgan can keep one on target, apparently.

Keeping one on target at a small range with a semi-auto AR15, doing slow fire, is not hard. Engaging a target, standing, offhand, at many hundred meters, on full auto, is and should be. Current recoil certainly isn't weak in that regard but it doesn't have as much of an effect as it could. Don't even get me started on the MK17's from A2....

No one is talking about full auto but you, even so, recoil in a weapon is not unpredictable.

Uh-huh... Mechanically, no it is not unpredictable. But even with proper technique, standing, off-hand accuracy at the ranges I've been seeing in A3 is simply too high and to simply vertical.

Edited March 8, 2013 by GRS

[johncage 30]

it's the "hard=realistic" argument from people who don't care about how weapons behave in reality.

[EuroSlave 1]

mk17 was easy to control in OA. Too damn easy. It was the only thing I ever used because it was lethal cqb and at long range. pop the red dot sight/acog what was it on that and I could score 700m kills with insane accuracy. I'm having trouble shooting in ARMA 3 but I have no idea what exactly is the cause of this yet.

[Hillsbills 1]

In fact, by mechanical design, many guns, such as the M4, WILL bounce slightly to the side as well. Regardless, a video showing light muzzle climb means nothing, especially not at long ranges. You'll notice they did not show how tight his grouping was... Also, I'm not even talking about muzzle climb specifically, or at all really.

.

Muzzle climb is what's wrong in the game, as I posted in the pictures before the vid, you could never do a mag dump like that without tearing up tree tops in ARMA3. You're high if you think a steady muzzle as shown in the vid leads to terrible groups. Even though I'd never encourage full auto at long ranges it does the job to have the weapon spread rounds over an area instead of a point. Spraying the sky isn't part of that job.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Hillsbills

[Sundowner 11]

I'm quite surprised of how many people don't have any experience with rifles, either shooting intermediate rounds, or rifle rounds.

Finding a neutral position, where you don't fight the weapon, and it stays on target by it's own - that's what we should discuss here. You position your weapon using your hands and sling, to just hang suspended wherever you want to aim it, and it will return roughly to that point by it's own after firing it. It doesn't matter if it's 5.56, 6.5 or 7.62. I have no problem shooting 7.62x39, 7.62x51, 7.62x54R or .30-06 at "kneeling silhouette" target set at 300m using iron sights while standing - time after time. Adjust the rifle to neutral, aim, squeeze off a round and wait for the rifle to come back to target on its own. Why do games have to make it harder than it really is in the real life? Why every single time, I have to run around in an avatar that is supposed to be a highly trained soldier, but either don't know how to hold a rifle, or have poor trigger control ?

BTW same thing with reloads - why my avatar is keeping a magazine with one round left, when I order him to reload on the move from cover to cover under fire ? Just drop that damn thing on the ground !

[Beagle 684]

I'm quite surprised of how many people don't have any experience with rifles, either shooting intermediate rounds, or rifle rounds.

That's because the possesion of firearms is very restricted in most parts of this planet with decent internet connection and most european countries have by now stopped conscription.

[4 IN 1 0]

it's the "hard=realistic" argument from people who don't care about how weapons behave in reality.

This!

However given that the animation ain't what I called "A good stance neither, maybe we have to assume that our avatar have a poor recoil management?

[TG Marksman X 10]

I'm quite surprised of how many people don't have any experience with rifles, either shooting intermediate rounds, or rifle rounds.

Finding a neutral position, where you don't fight the weapon, and it stays on target by it's own - that's what we should discuss here. You position your weapon using your hands and sling, to just hang suspended wherever you want to aim it, and it will return roughly to that point by it's own after firing it. It doesn't matter if it's 5.56, 6.5 or 7.62. I have no problem shooting 7.62x39, 7.62x51, 7.62x54R or .30-06 at "kneeling silhouette" target set at 300m using iron sights while standing - time after time. Adjust the rifle to neutral, aim, squeeze off a round and wait for the rifle to come back to target on its own. Why do games have to make it harder than it really is in the real life? Why every single time, I have to run around in an avatar that is supposed to be a highly trained soldier, but either don't know how to hold a rifle, or have poor trigger control ?

BTW same thing with reloads - why my avatar is keeping a magazine with one round left, when I order him to reload on the move from cover to cover under fire ? Just drop that damn thing on the ground !

Dump bag, not the ground. Unless you intend of fighting with your hands, or single firing your weapon because you've dropped all your mags across the battlefield.

[Sundowner 11]

That's because the possesion of firearms is very restricted in most parts of this planet with decent internet connection and most european countries have by now stopped conscription.

I don't own any rifles, and it doesn't stop me from sending more lead downrange annually than soldiers I work with ;)

Possession is not a problem, there are many firing ranges across Europe, Australia, North America (and won't speak for others as my knowledge there is limited) to just go there and under supervision shoot few boxes or even belts of ammo at various ranges from wide spectrum of weapons. Sometimes even military is having such "open days" that you can play with some of the toys we have. Hunting is still quite popular in Europe, so you can also get your hands on some of scoped rifles too.

I go to two firing ranges - one is a sports one, where I can shoot handguns, and the second is a military 350m range, where every 3 months a gun owners club rents it and allow people to shoot their stuff (although for a hefty price), and they have quite a selection, from black powder muskets, through Garands, MP40, M4, AKMs, all the way to SWD and full-auto PKM (no .50 cal though, but I suspect this will change soon). And that's in a country that have ridicules gun laws (still not as bad as UK though).

---------- Post added at 10:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 AM ----------

Dump bag, not the ground. Unless you intend of fighting with your hands, or single firing your weapon because you've dropped all your mags across the battlefield.

Have you tried to get that magazine to a dump bag on the run ? Even without assault pack, bulky vest with side-plates, and anything on that side of the belt - it's not very fast process. If I'm under fire, and changing magazines - the **** already hit the fan, I need that gun running ASAP, I don't care for that one round in bulky box, that will rattle until I fish it out at some point and be dumb struck that the bolt locked back after a single shot. At that point in time, it's trash and I don't need it with me.

If I'm safely behind cover, have time to top-off my rifle with a fresh magazine - the old one goes to dump bag/side pocket/tucked between armor layers, etc.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Sundowner

[SandboxPlaya 10]

Notice how this muzzle never climbs above the horizon.

He leans forward to press against the recoil with his body mass. In other words, he is trying hard to control it. You can't expect a gun to stay flat like that in the game without any input from your mouse at all.

For another thing, shooting range is a different scenario. In combat, you're usually exhausted and can't afford to be in perfect-to-counter-recoil stance like that, exposing yourself to enemy fire.

You want to see some real combat footage recoil? Check this one out:

And that's 5.56mm

Edited March 8, 2013 by SandboxPlaya

[Hillsbills 1]

Yeah I've seen that video but since he's an absolute tool I don't put much faith it in. :p Countering recoil is muscle memory and dead simple, no matter how spent you are.

[Beagle 684]

Countering recoil is muscle memory and dead simple, no matter how spent you are.

its the same in ArmA, after a while you do not think about it you just adjust the mouse movement a bit. Exact the same discussion happend back in 2010 with Version 1.07.

[Hillsbills 1]

It's been wrong ever since.

[-Coulum- 35]

its the same in ArmA, after a while you do not think about it you just adjust the mouse movement a bit. Exact the same discussion happend back in 2010 with Version 1.07.

This is the way I see it. People need to take time to get used to the recoil. It may seen clunky and unusable now, but with time it'll become natural.

Edited March 8, 2013 by -Coulum-