Helicopter physics impressions - simplified

[Minoza 11]

We all know where...

Seriously, I am more than disappointed if that's true, I really expected more. All the stuff I was hopping it would finally get fixed for Arma 3 is still there, broken or non existent, stuff that's bugging the game from Arma 1 era, probably even OFP era, but I can't say for sure because I haven't played OFP. Lack of important gameplay features, and features that aren't that important at all but still being implemented... I hate it to admit, but FM is worse than in we all know which game.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Minoza

[chortles 263]

over estimation of resources? they should also never have said what features might make it into the game, and probably only done the "core" first, then used the time left between the finished core, and launch to add all the things that are nice, but not needed for the game to work

feature creep is what killssmall to midsize projects, as you try to put to much stuff in and either have to cut it, or release a broken game, or release late.

The thing is, feature creep and "over estimation" (of "over-ambition") has been a running thing of BI's since Game 2...

[[evo] dan 79]

Really disappointing to hear, me and a few others really wanted this having enjoyed the more challenging flightmodel of TOH. Could this be because Suma is working on dayZ now? (I swear someone said this on here)

[ric 1]

you know where...

Flight model is one of the reasons why I hate it when people try to call this game a simulator.

Hopefully, we will get the improved flight model at some point... though, there is a much more important (not to be spoken of) issue that is the only thing on my list at this point.

I know just what you are talking about....the snakes don't move correctly ;)

[nodunit 397]

I feared that would happen, especially since the current FM is just pathetic. Seriously BIS, what happened that you had to dump so many promised features over the time? Where did the planed resources go?

TKOH flight model, infantry armor, varied stamina system based on encumberance being a few teasers.

It's rather difficult to say Arma 3 brings a whole lot new to the game mechanics aside from infantry motion, I'll admit that the floating optics was quite a game changer in and of itself,the infantry movement system nothing short of awesome after years of the stuttery movement we're used to, the lighting is hands down a massive improvement and the radio protocol is MUCH better.

But the game being infantry focused has only revolutionized its infantry partially...there could have been so much more here with variable armors, the stamina and weapon resting, key INFANTRY focused mechanics.

The physX is nice but it hasn't quite met its best stage yet, and they don't seem to be capitalizing on using it outside of vehicles all that much.

I don't really know if I can call PIP a full mechanic since it lacks camera capability's IE zoom. It could have been a real impressive addition to all platforms across the board from ground scout to aircraft navigation and combat systems.

BI said they wanted to focus on less vehicles with more mechanics and we were all for it yet we're seeing about the same amount from arma 1 and 2..which I honestly would have been fine without, I'd have happily left the UH-80 and AH-99 to be the only two blueforce helicopters if it meant that they could have just a few deeper mechanics to them..

Hell even if its stuttery I'd have happily accepted PIP if it acted as a camera, right now it seems mostly to be a function that is there to be there, it doesn't really expand on its own gameplay that much. And that is a huge shame because cameras play a great role in what makes modern combat equipment MODERN, if the ghost hawk and comanche both had PIP in cockpit with variable high levels of zoom then you essentially have scout capabilities in both aircraft.

Edited June 22, 2013 by NodUnit

[byku 13]

Btw. guys, one of the devs also said that TOH model in Arma did lower fps by big amount, so probably that's one of the reasons.

[ric 1]

Btw. guys, one of the devs also said that TOH model in Arma did lower fps by big amount, so probably that's one of the reasons.

unfortunately RV4 is strained to the max and we will see alot of features either removed or dumbed down so as to maintain playabilty :(

[chortles 263]

It was RiE in the GameSpot "live cam" on the floor at the booth saying that the TOH flight model took as much as 10 FPS, which wouldn't do when there's already so many things impacting FPS and 'doing something about that' is what people seem to tend to mean by "optimization".

Frankly, it sounds like "getting overambitious" reared its ugly head again this time around just like with Game 2, although even before the project lead change, the prior project lead was already saying "no progress made" or "not going to happen" or "we had to retract this feature claim because of..."

[blazin419 10]

I'm actually quite happy with the current helicopter model. It's significantly better than ARMA 2's flight model and it's not hard for new players to grasp.

I've never played Take on Helicopters so I don't know the type of flight model that it had, but if it took a lot of my CPU power I definitely think it wouldn't have been worth it.

I see too many people crash and burn already to have more people crash and burn.

I spent the last half hour in the editor of the development build flying all the new helicopters and I think they're good. The acceleration is quite high as it should be once the helicopter gets moving (almost kind of feels like a jet with some of the more faster helicopters) and it's very easy to go back to hovering speeds by simply banking and doing a sharp 180 turn.

Also, the Ghosthawk is now my new favourite helicopter. The thing looks so slick and its max speed is like 450km/h!

[LeftSkidLow 1]

The pitch and roll rates are way to slow. Roll is the biggest problem, I had to assign full left and right roll to joystick hat keys because I can't turn the sensitivity up all the way either. I haven't played since April and now I'm using the dev beta but it seems much worse than I remember. This was not a problem in Arma2.

[Cykyrios 10]

I don't get how some people can like the devbuild FM better than the previous one... sure, it's a problem of personal preference, but that thing is so flawed... To sum some things up:

- Autorotations are gone since 0.58, and still aren't back

- AH-9/MH-9 is "less twitchy", to the extent that the CH-49 is more responsive to ALL inputs

- damage model is very very bad

- collective is... special, but I don't mind it in Arma

And also, a link to this ticket: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=9786

Take a look at the video as well.

I for one am not asking for th ToH FM, as it would probably be too restrictive in Arma 3 (only a few people would be able to fly helicopters), but at least making the current one behave properly would be a good thing.

[fraczek 4]

There was a bug with controllers not allowing full movement as keyboard binds in wheeled vehicles. Perhaps it applies to helicopters as well? If so, please test and update/upvote the relevant ticket.

[max power 21]

I feared that would happen, especially since the current FM is just pathetic. Seriously BIS, what happened that you had to dump so many promised features over the time? Where did the planed resources go?

By what I heard at e3, it seems like the issue is more that the RL helicopters cost 10 fps everytime you board one.

Also, I remember reading something a while back about Rotorlib being hard to reconcile with PhysX in that it was hard to get them to work together.

[l00ck 10]

what i find most annoying is that they wont let us use 100% of the throttle on a joystick (like in toh), only 50% :(

[byku 13]

Holy crap... just tested AH-6... BLOODY HELL it's slow to inputs. What did You do? O.O It should be agile small helicopter!

The optics on mi-48 are overdone with the dirtiness. I wouldn't go to combat with such dirty optic.

Oh... and flying sideways is copy/paste... mi-48 and comanche. In real life comanche was awesome with that, being able to turn 90 degrees at over 150kmh. Mi-48 with coaxial would probably also be very good. I'm starting to think that they are changing things because "harder" means more realistic, while it isn't like that. TOH was easy, the choppers were predictable and agile. AH/MH-6 is horrible.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Byku

[Tonci87 163]

By what I heard at e3, it seems like the issue is more that the RL helicopters cost 10 fps everytime you board one.

Also, I remember reading something a while back about Rotorlib being hard to reconcile with PhysX in that it was hard to get them to work together.

Well why don´t they come up and simply announce this on the forum? Why do we have to browse through x E3 interviews to get this quite important bit of information?

The Arma 3 development is a history of dismissed features.

Lets look at what we have

+Better movement system

+Better Lights

+PhysX and ragdoll

+Diving

+New fog

+new scopes

+PiP

+a few new options to adjust the graphics

-Even worse FM for helicopters than in A2

-PhysX and ragdoll not beeing that good, for example you can take a turn at 100 km/h without flipping your car, it is incredibly hard to flip a vehicle, even if you flip it it will righten itself.

-Diving doesn´t really have a meaning since the underwater combat sucks, mainly because the underwater AI sucks.

-No Rain as of yet

-Pip doesn´t really add anything to the gameplay

-We still have Bugs that date back to OfP

-still no 3D Editor

-No weapon resting

-Still an HP based armor system

-Bad midrange textures

-Ai still doesn´t know when it´s best to keep the head down

-vehicle AI doesn´t know anything about vehicle tactics (helicopters flying above the target zone instead of attacking from a distance, armored vehicels too stupid to turn their front towards the enemy)

-Still horrible driving AI

-There are still no shadows from other lightsources than the sun or the moon.

-completely ruined Sourround Sound

I could go on and on.

I hoped for Arma 3 to raise the Arma franchise to a whole new level, instead of that we got Arma 2 with shiny graphics, a few improvements and new models.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Tonci87

[Wildgoose 1]

Atleast if they keep removing new features the game might be stable for release!

Problem is we might end up with less features then OFP at this rate....

[daveallen10 35]

Anyone else having trouble binding Right Pedal to 'E'? It pitches the helicopter forward for me.

[mrflay 4]

Anyone else having trouble binding Right Pedal to 'E'? It pitches the helicopter forward for me.

I don't know if there's a way to fix this using the UI, but it is possible to fix this by editing the Arma3Profile manually.

Close arma.

Open your Arma3Profile file in a text editor. This file can be found under C:\Users\<USERNAME>\Documents\Arma 3\ or C:\Users\<USERNAME>\Documents\Arma 3 - Other Profiles\<USERNAME>\ if you have made a new profile.

Find the following entries:

keyHeliForward[]={17,200,1048579};
keyHeliFastForward[]={18};

And replace them with these:

keyHeliForward[]={200,1048579};
keyHeliFastForward[]={};

Save and start Arma 3.

Now you can bind controls to 'E' and 'Q' without having issues with the chopper pitching forward.

[fraczek 4]

Anyone else having trouble binding Right Pedal to 'E'? It pitches the helicopter forward for me.

Yep, just borged-as-usual-beta key config. Edit your profile cfg file, and manually unbind the HeliFastForward (might as well HeliForward) or whatever it is called. Might as well create a ticket.

[KeyCat 131]

I'm actually quite happy with the current helicopter model. It's significantly better than ARMA 2's flight model and it's not hard for new players to grasp.

No offence but it's not better than A2:OA on the contrary!

The FM have been a joke since Alpha release day one and I have avoided to fly except for testing a few minutes to see if things improved, I have seen it as a placeholder and if this is the FM we will get in final I'm gonna cry.

I'm not a helicopter pilot IRL but I've been enjoying various flightsims since the early dawn and always fly with joystick and rudders so to me - and many others - it matters a big deal. Regarding new players crashing and burning it would be optional just like other difficult settings are.

Implementation of ToH FM has been one of the main features touted for A3 pretty much since BIS started to talk about it a couple of years ago and now we have indications of it being dismissed. I'm not saying they are lying but "ToH helicopters FM cost to many fps" sounds way better than "we have no time/resources to get it in".

We do not know for sure exactly what Jiri's comment on E3 means. Maybe he meant that it will not be included at release but will later be added in a patch? If thats the case it's fine but if it's never gonna be implemented then A3 is heading the wrong way IMHO - as others also expressed - the implementation of ToH FM would lift A3 to the next level!

Any clarification from the dev's on this matter would be appreciated.

/KC

Edited June 24, 2013 by KeyCat

[jumpinghubert 49]

i hope toh-flightmodel comes later or/and at least as an option for custom missions.

[GranolaBar 10]

I just remember than we can always rebounds on the sea with helicopters since the beginning of Alpha, and now Beta : http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?157383-Rebounds-on-water-Choppers&p=2421280#post2421280

[St. Jimmy 272]

We do not know for sure exactly what Jiri's comment on E3 means. Maybe he meant that it will not be included at release but will later be added in a patch?

Got to pick this one because maybe the guy who asked about ToH FM asked "is it included now" or Jiri just understood the question that way.

I believe we're still at the point that maybe in the future.

[LeftSkidLow 1]

Holy crap... just tested AH-6... BLOODY HELL it's slow to inputs. What did You do? O.O It should be agile small helicopter!

The optics on mi-48 are overdone with the dirtiness. I wouldn't go to combat with such dirty optic.

Oh... and flying sideways is copy/paste... mi-48 and comanche. In real life comanche was awesome with that, being able to turn 90 degrees at over 150kmh. Mi-48 with coaxial would probably also be very good. I'm starting to think that they are changing things because "harder" means more realistic, while it isn't like that. TOH was easy, the choppers were predictable and agile. AH/MH-6 is horrible.

Yes, it's really difficult to fly with such sluggish pitch and roll rates but don't make the mistake that M/AH-9 would be significantly more responsive than a helicopter that weighs 10,000 more pounds. These rates don't vary that much from one helicopter to another unless a Stability Augmentation System is in the way. Aside from old or rare rotor systems that you might find on something like a Hiller H-12, you could get just about any helicopter on it's side faster than the pilot can pucker his seat in.

I'm sure this is kind of a tiring debate for BIS and they have indeed listened by investing time and money into the much improved flight model in Take on Helicopters. I think a big part of getting ToH approved for development was using it's technology in Arma 3 but only time will tell if BIS still sees it as worthwhile. Whatever happens though, I think we will always have this default model as an option, so it just needs some adjustments in responsiveness so that joystick players aren't getting shafted for mouse+kb like EA would do.