Israel - Gaza - What should we do if anything.

[oxmox 73]

The Shia Hizballah is supported by Iran and yes I did read in the past that Hamas got support aswell, but this is a point I dont understand. There are power struggles between the Shia and Sunnis, the Iran itself is the biggest Shia state and Sunni states like Katar or Saudi Arabia rather sponsoring the Sunni Hamas right now. Its quiete complicated, therefore a lot of questions are left for me.

Edited November 19, 2012 by oxmox

[ProfTournesol 956]

I think you mix something up here if Iam not wrong, the Shia Hizballah is supported by Iran. There are power struggles between the Shia and Sunnis, the Iran itself is the biggest Shia state and Sunni states like Katar or Saudi Arabia rather sponsoring the Sunni Hamas. Its quiete complicated, therefore a lot of questions are left for me.

Well, Iran is publicly supporting Hamas, and Hamas recently fought against some Palestinian Salafist movements (Salafism being somehow close to Wahhabism, Wahhabi states being Saudi Arabia for example). See how complex things maybe in the middle East.

[oxmox 73]

I did edit my sentences before, I did mix something up :D. Well Katar is publicly supporting Hamas aswell, only recently the Shike did visit Gaza with a financial present and like Saudi Arabia did it aswell since years http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4795574.stm. By the way, Saudi Arabia was the largest backer of Hamas first and later Iran, until the sanctions. click

Yes it is complicated, but there are parts which I cant follow. On the one hand there are major struggles between Sunnis and Shia, but Hamas seems to be an exception. Only recently the Hamas ruled out military support for Iran, no wonder they are supporting the Syrian Rebels. Salafism is just more or less a synonym for Wahabism but is used for none-Saudis, as far I did read.

Edited November 19, 2012 by oxmox

[froggyluv 2136]

The Middle East. The world's leading problem child. Was setting up the Jewish Homeland in a sea of perpetually violence prone arabs a good idea? I don't know, but it's not hard to see why massive problems would arise from it. Of course it was a Jewish homeland some centuries ago - as was this land of the United States the property of a multitude of Native American tribes for thousands of years- yet I doubt Americans would willingly or even forcefully allow them to just come back and take it all (with alien weaponry I'd imagine).

The fact is whether you agree or don't with the creation of Israel, it's here to stay unless Iran goes maniacally nuclear or Israel goes ahead with "The Samson Option". As most Americans, I grew up Pro-Israeli just because we are always told they are our 'special friend' but the more I watch their actions and seemingly lack of interest in actually creating a two state solution, the more I feel critical of their government (much to the chagrin of my Israeli-Jewish wife). I just don't feel Israel (and I mean Government not necessarily people) really wants to create a Palestine but would rather stall for as long as possible, increase their land control and population thru settlements, a call for worldwide jews to re-patriate, and laws and policies to 'protect the Jewishness of the state'.

Clearly between the two Palestinian governments, Hamas and Fatah (formerly PLO), Fatah is the only one that can be reasoned with as they do accept and recognize Israel while Hamas obviously doesn't. Fatah is demanding the ever encroaching Israeli settlements to freeze before negotiations and the current right-wing controlled Israeli governemnt has shown only the slightest desire to enact this. Working closer with Fatah would serve to undermine Hamas'es power and that in itself would lead to better security for Israel. The Israeli's current platform of "we'll keep our bootheel on your neck until we feel safe" is having the opposite effect and the chance for skirmishes to full blow war will always increase by the status quo.

Edited November 19, 2012 by froggyluv

[ProfTournesol 956]

When you see what happens throughout the arab world, i'm not sure the existence of a Jewish state in Palestine (ie Israel) is the main reason of all the mess. Of course, Israel has destabilized the area (particularly in Lebanon) several times, but there are a lot of strategical and religious interests at stake in the middle east which are not connected to Israel.

[froggyluv 2136]

When you see what happens throughout the arab world, i'm not sure the existence of a Jewish state in Palestine (ie Israel) is the main reason of all the mess. Of course, Israel has destabilized the area (particularly in Lebanon) several times, but there are a lot of strategical and religious interests at stake in the middle east which are not connected to Israel.

Without question there are ALOT of other reasons for unrest in the region outside of the Israeli one. Fighting for oil dominance, fighting for who is the rightful heir of Muhammed (Sunni/Shia) etc.. just to name a few. But add an artifical transplant of a whole other people (European Jews) and you've now provided a galvanizing centerpiece for the Arab/Persian higher ups to better manipulate their pawns. American and English also playing Coup D'etat in the region trying to grab control of others people resources didn't help the matter either.

[walker 0]

Hi all

As I keep pointing out the first step to achieving peace in the Middle East is for a Palestinian state to be recognised in the UN. Once that is achieved then Israel and Palestine can fight, war, bicker and argue over borders, and then treaties and agreements can ensue.

Until then all we have is an apatheid regime and a lot of hot air spent in dither and stall.

As I also have pointed out many times, it will eventualy evolve into a 3 state solution.

Kind Regards walker

[oxmox 73]

...seemingly lack of interest in actually creating a two state solution, the more I feel critical of their government (much to the chagrin of my Israeli-Jewish wife). I just don't feel Israel (and I mean Government not necessarily people) really wants to create a Palestine but would rather stall for as long as possible, increase their land control and population thru settlements...Clearly between the two Palestinian governments, Hamas and Fatah (formerly PLO), Fatah is the only one that can be reasoned with as they do accept and recognize Israel while Hamas obviously doesn't.

Probably one of the biggest dangers for Israel is their demography and actually I doubt there will be a palestinian State created. Where is the space for it ? There are still hundred of thousands of palestinian refugees in neighbour states who would probably come back. There is the question for water control, and so on....

Fatah seems for sure the better options, they are not that radical like Hamas in politics but also with their religious aims.

There is only one point, wheras the Fatah recognizes Israel and the Hamas not, the Likud in Israel does not recognize Palestine aswell in their political charta. "The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state." Charter

What the....Anonymous declares 'cyberwar' on Israel

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/11/19/tech/web/cyber-attack-israel-anonymous/

Edited November 19, 2012 by oxmox

[Mr. Charles 22]

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2012/11/israel_-_gaza_conflict.html

[kireta21 13]

@walker

This is how I see it:

1. Create independent Palestine

2. Hamas & CO keep bullying the dragon with mortar and rocket fire.

3. Israel steamroll Palestine with tanks and airstrikes, kill a lot of Hamas along with many of their human shields (oh, pardonnez-moi, "martyrs"), and occupy Palestine in result.

4. So were back where we started, minus few houndreds of thousands killed, and half of Palestine back to middle ages. Nice job.

So sorry, but it's either You naive, or me cynical. Your call.

[-GR-Operative 10]

Wrong, in your scenario, attacking an UN state calls for foreign intervention ;)

[walker 0]

Hi all

In reply to Boota. Your scenario would involve.

Nation States

With Armies in Uniform.

A war.

POWs under the Geneva convention.

Or Sabatuers no Geneva Convention protection.

A Peace Treaty.

With signatorys

OR

A Surrender.

Surrener terms.

Reperations.

The final result being:

A Legal Peace.

Or we can just keep on with the same old same old.

You do realise that by the next US election the Middle East will hold no economic interest for America, and that as a result the US will pull out of the region?

Recognition of a Palestinian state by a UN Majority as happened with Israel is the solution. Unless you have another solution?

Kind Regards walker

Edited November 20, 2012 by walker

[kireta21 13]

You seem to forget Arabian countries didn't recognize Israeli state, and did their best to destroy it competely. Only reason why some recognized Israel as country rather than "zionist occupants" is because they were loosing war after war, and finally gave up. Scenario very unlikely with Palestine.

Peace in a long run, can be achieved through prolonged ceasefire, but this one was and will be effectively sabotaged by Hamas. One reason is their ideology, they will never give up untill full victory. Other is without war that keep Palestine people docile, and their hatred chaneled, they may lose influence. Ironlically it's the same reason why war serves well similar warmonger politicians within Israel.

Not sure if Israel ever agree for independent Palestine state, but untill peace is achieved, independence is simply impossible.

Imagine Kosovo declaring independence without western countries to back it up.

[ProfTournesol 956]

You seem to forget Arabian countries didn't recognize Israeli state, and did their best to destroy it competely. Only reason why some recognized Israel as country rather than "zionist occupants" is because they were loosing war after war, and finally gave up. Scenario very unlikely with Palestine.

Peace in a long run, can be achieved through prolonged ceasefire, but this one was and will be effectively sabotaged by Hamas. One reason is their ideology, they will never give up untill full victory. Other is without war that keep Palestine people docile, and their hatred chaneled, they may lose influence. Ironlically it's the same reason why war serves well similar warmonger politicians within Israel.

Not sure if Israel ever agree for independent Palestine state, but untill peace is achieved, independence is simply impossible.

Imagine Kosovo declaring independence without western countries to back it up.

I mostly agree, but as long as Gaza population will be maintained in this state of poverty and isolation, they will support Hamas.

[spooky lynx 73]

Peace in a long run, can be achieved through prolonged ceasefire, but this one was and will be effectively sabotaged by Hamas. One reason is their ideology, they will never give up untill full victory. Other is without war that keep Palestine people docile, and their hatred chaneled, they may lose influence. Ironlically it's the same reason why war serves well similar warmonger politicians within Israel.

Victory? They don't need one. After victory they will have to build the state from the scratch. And it's far more complicated taks than firing rockets on evil Juice. I suppose such long-time conflict suits well for both Hamas and similar groups and Israel. Everybody have easy way to get money, everybody have an enemy who can be blamed for all the problems, etc. Profit for everybody except those who really want to have the Palestinian state and peaceful Israel without bombings and terror threats.

[ProfTournesol 956]

And it's far more complicated taks than firing rockets on evil Juice.

Is that some kind of vodka :803:

[spooky lynx 73]

Is that some kind of vodka :803:

Yeah, infused with matzo:)

[dekster 1]

A bit off-topic: but Gaza is 151 square kms, Chernarus about 225, why isn't there a (full) map of it yet?

[ProfTournesol 956]

A bit off-topic: but Gaza is 151 square kms, Chernarus about 225, why isn't there a (full) map of it yet?

Well, such an amount of buildings will kill any powerful PC.

[Macadam Cow 1]

Well...that number shrinks a little more every day, shouldn't be long before it "meets" the arma requirement...

[icebreakr 3159]

Ouch, low....

Macadam Cow: try doing "capital of rape" city, Goma. CQB heaven but also a huge project ;)

[walker 0]

You seem to forget Arabian countries didn't recognize Israeli state, and did their best to destroy it competely. Only reason why some recognized Israel as country rather than "zionist occupants" is because they were loosing war after war, and finally gave up. Scenario very unlikely with Palestine.

Peace in a long run, can be achieved through prolonged ceasefire, but this one was and will be effectively sabotaged by Hamas. One reason is their ideology, they will never give up untill full victory. Other is without war that keep Palestine people docile, and their hatred chaneled, they may lose influence. Ironlically it's the same reason why war serves well similar warmonger politicians within Israel.

Not sure if Israel ever agree for independent Palestine state, but untill peace is achieved, independence is simply impossible.

Imagine Kosovo declaring independence without western countries to back it up.

Hi all

In Reply to boota'a post above:

I do not expect Israel to recognise Palestine in the short term, like every other Arab nation, Israel will take a while to adjust to reality.

As I pointed out I think Israel will invade a declared Palestinian state as Israel's Semitic neighbours from: Jordan, Syria, Egypt and the Arab League invaded it, but like Israel I would expect a Palestinian state to resist heroicly and as an invader and occupier of a UN recongnised state, Israel would then have to provide certain protections of the civilian population, that it does not live up to at the moment, preventing it from using the current collective punishment of indiscriminate bombing and shelliing campaigns against the Gaza gheto.

Long term occupation by Israel is anyway making Israel a Pariah and as I pointed out America will no longer be interested in maintaining a foothold in the Middle East by the next election. So Israel will be forced to sue for peace and sit down at the bargaining table and agree to a Palestinian state whether it like it or not. The majority of Settlement will all have to be abandonned and firm walls will declare the borders which will be agreed by both parties.

This process will only begin to happen when Palestine becomes a recognised state by a simple majority vote of the UN.

That recognition of a Palestinian state is what will create the peace, so the sooner it happens the better, it does not require the the aquiesense of all parties, it did not for Israel so the same applies, nor does it require a democraticly elected governement, Israel did not have a democraticly elected governement when it was recognised by the UN.

When Palestine has its seat in the UN then we can move forward.

Kind Regards walker

Edited November 20, 2012 by walker

[Macadam Cow 1]

Ouch, low....

Honestly, not so far from the truth.

If you take a look at the link Mr Charles posted earlier :

http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/israelgaza_111912/bp20.jpg

Macadam Cow: try doing "capital of rape" city, Goma. CQB heaven but also a huge project ;)

I didn't know you had a dark side IceBreakr, I lol'd but somehow I feel bad now :(

I think there's a thin line that shouldn't be crossed in the virtual recreation of real conflict.

And for me the middle eastern conflict, the caucasian conflict and african civil wars are on the other side of that line.

But hey, that's just me !

Edited November 21, 2012 by Macadam Cow

[slatts 1978]

I think Syria can thank Israel for once, they took (rightly or wrongly, doesn't matter) the worlds attention off them. /Sarcasm

[mrcash2009 0]

I dont want to burst a bubble, but this was never meant to be resolved, only resolved through one way, and that will end and continue into WW3.

A bit off-topic: but Gaza is 151 square kms, Chernarus about 225, why isn't there a (full) map of it yet?

Go and do some field research if you want it that bad, enjoy yourself. I mean ... really?