More realistic/depressing feeling

[arigram 0]

Well, heartbeat has been mentioned in one of the infantry demonstrations (I think by Ivan Buchta) as a sound effect relating to stress and fatigue...

[G4meM0ment 1]

Its down to the player to decide if he is scared to death or if he is still able to manage the situation. Forcing visual camera sfx on him just for the sake of is imo the wrong idea. Similar if you would force music on players just to "increase the atmosphere" and make it more or less dangerous.... (or predictable) ;)

Its something else if you play music in a game, its another great tool to improve the atmosphere, but thats not what I want, the suppression feature would just increase the feeling, if a player can imagine this feeling himself he could turn this feature off.

But I must have this feature to enjoy the game and have this depressing feeling :o

[[aps]gnat 28]

Being under fire in ArmA2 makes me feels about 20 times more "suppressed" than in Battlefield 3 who has those effects.

Yep .... and part of it is the fact the gameplay is lethal, not just "blurry" lol

[Madeon 6]

Gnat;2210651']Yep .... and part of it is the fact the gameplay is lethal' date=' not just "blurry" lol[/quote']

Agreed. Anyone that isn't bothered about getting shot might as well just play with an invincibility mod, the entire point of the game is to try to complete mission objectives without getting yourself or your teammates killed or wounded in the process. Why do people even bother playing against enemy AI or enemy human players if they aren't concerned about being shot? They might as well just spend all game at a firing range...

[G4meM0ment 1]

Agreed. Anyone that isn't bothered about getting shot might as well just play with an invincibility mod, the entire point of the game is to try to complete mission objectives without getting yourself or your teammates killed or wounded in the process. Why do people even bother playing against enemy AI or enemy human players if they aren't concerned about being shot? They might as well just spend all game at a firing range...

That makes sense, sorry if I not understand the whole meaning of what you said. I think if or without this feature a player should be prepared and know that they can be shot, but if someone is shooting at them this won't pass the player without any effect (fast breathing, more concentration maybe he's scared) so this would just make the feeling more authentic.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I prefer such reminders, and I even prefer motion blur activated if the fps hit isn't too high. In own missions I have also added dust goggles, which will narrow your view somewhat but you can see clearly. Without them, you get radial blur when looking into the wind. I also always use the EW effects like dirt and blood. For effects like these, which does have a small impact on the players capabilities, I'd like to be able to force them on the player using difficulty settings, and also the player should be able to review the difficulty settings a server runs before actually joining. And finally, the server should allow people to choose more difficult option if they want to, but obviously not more easy ones :) Maybe we would allow mods that changes the effects.

JSRS (bullet snaps and cracks) is about the only "mechanic" that actually makes me scared. During suppression we'll get a bit agitated and have some additional weird weapons shake, but I don't think it's nowhere near enough. We don't even have to worry about backblast, and need ACE for that. It's understandable though, as I think it could be a challenge to make AI aware of this danger.

[Madeon 6]

(bullet snaps and cracks) is about the only "mechanic" that actually makes me scared.

I like this feature, when I can hear incoming bullets zipping around me that's all the incentive I'll ever need to get my ass behind cover. Perhaps I get more immersed in the game world than some other people here, because when I'm under fire in arma I get nervous in the real world, I don't need gimmicks for my ingame character, when I play arma I play to win and on more than one occasion I've been so immersed in the virtual combat that it literally made my heart pound during intense firefights.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Madeon
Edit spelling mistake.

[h - 169]

But, this 'getting suppressed' effect already happens in OA.

At least when I receive suppressive fire/a lot of near misses I'm not sure if there's any blurring but the player avatar starts breathing heavily and the weapon starts swaying (not using any mods).. Or am I just imagining things, or getting hit without knowing it :confused:

[Steakslim 1]

No, the suppression is there, and works pretty well I suppose.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I don't call it a gimmick as long as it proves to be a real obstacle to the player. Changing to grayscale would be gimmicky since you'll still see fine. Radial blur would actually impair your vision. You and me may get properly immersed (subjective I guess), but we got tired of idiots on our server that couldn't care less about immersion and was one of the reaons we shut down the server for public access. They would complain about other mechanics placed into the missions, such as long respawn times (5 minutes, before we got variable respawn time possibility as a reward/penalty for staying alive/dying), but as a difficulty setting that was known, it might attract more of the right people. I agree, it might not be for everyone - then again there are plenty who complain about motion blur for creating a blur rather than the fps penalty or how it seems more penalizing during lower fps. They scream about immersion but they "play to win at all measures possible".

[Madeon 6]

Well even though I don't agree that arma requires suppression effects and personally would never use them, I do appreciate that different players have different preferences, so I hope you guys can come up with a suppression system that makes gameplay a more enjoyable experience for you.

[dmarkwick 261]

I like this feature, when I can hear incoming bullets zipping around me that's all the incentive I'll ever need to get my ass behind cover. Perhaps I get more immersed in the game world than some other people here, because when I'm under fire in arma I get nervous in the real world, I don't need gimmicks for my ingame character, when I play arma I play to win and on more than one occasion I've been so immersed in the virtual combat that it literally made my heart pound during intense firefights.

Well, OK if your answer to suppression effects is that people should just "take it more seriously" then that's your prerogative. But seeing as the topic is about ingame suppression effects then my own idea is that, rather than simply show spooky visual effects, there should be a gameplay penalty for the time you're under suppression. As we can't agree what amount of fear we should pretend to have, I suggest an actual, ingame reason not to expose yourself unnecessarily. I'm not saying that makes me afraid, because I don't get afraid, but it gives me a reason to hide similar to as if I were afraid, and that's a good enough reason to have it in as a gameplay feature IMO.

Perhaps the distinction isn't so obvious to you :)

I don't call it a gimmick as long as it proves to be a real obstacle to the player. Changing to grayscale would be gimmicky since you'll still see fine. Radial blur would actually impair your vision. You and me may get properly immersed (subjective I guess), but we got tired of idiots on our server that couldn't care less about immersion and was one of the reaons we shut down the server for public access. They would complain about other mechanics placed into the missions, such as long respawn times (5 minutes, before we got variable respawn time possibility as a reward/penalty for staying alive/dying), but as a difficulty setting that was known, it might attract more of the right people. I agree, it might not be for everyone - then again there are plenty who complain about motion blur for creating a blur rather than the fps penalty or how it seems more penalizing during lower fps. They scream about immersion but they "play to win at all measures possible".

Sometimes a visual effect is appropriate, sometimes not. I guess you should imagine what the desired outcome is and replicate, or simulate an analog, of that. So to give a person a reason to hide (other than his imagination) is a valid feature IMO.

Edited August 20, 2012 by DMarkwick

[l mandrake 9]

I order to make being shot at frightening:

Realistic bullet cracks, loud and *sharp*! (JSRS does this well, they've made me jump many a time)

Fear of death, this is already done well, getting back into the battle, if the mission even allows for it, can take 10 minutes.

I think Arma has this covered, however (from the videos we've seen so far) the bullet cracks in Arma3 are nowhere near the sound/volume they need to be.

This ^

Visual suppression effects in ArmA2 are fine, the problem is the sound design is terrible, i.e. you barely know there are rounds coming close to you. The sound should be unbearably loud and shocking when bullets impact nearby or tear the air apart near your head - JSRS achieves this, especially when a .50 cal round passes close by, the noise is so jarring it creates an almost 'genuine' suppression effect by making you jump with fright if your headphone volume is high enough (tho obviously without the fear factor). IMO BIS should put more resources into the sound design of ArmA3: audio is every bit as important as visuals.

[Madeon 6]

Well, OK if your answer to suppression effects is that people should just "take it more seriously" then that's your prerogative.

For me the challenge of surviving and winning firefights is the thrill of arma, I take cover because I don't want to get shot. You can't fake an adrenaline rush, and an adrenaline rush is exactly what you are proposing to simulate.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Don't you think that the suppression effect is/can be very "lethal" ingame? Maybe its better to teach AI and some players how suppressive fire works instead of relying on artificial sfx + penalties? Sorry but i have to disagree with "The sound should be unbearably loud and shocking when bullets impact nearby or tear the air apart near your head..." - its not only loudness that makes one afraid its more of those distinct sounds and the increase of it. Beeing pinned down by enemy fire one can still have a crystal clear view and still be able to hear/listen to his teammates. Perhaps a "more drama" option + icon for mp browser can be made on request? :D

[G4meM0ment 1]

For me the challenge of surviving and winning firefights is the thrill of arma, I take cover because I don't want to get shot. You can't fake an adrenaline rush, and an adrenaline rush is exactly what you are proposing to simulate.

For shure you cant fake it like it's in reality, but you can try to (which is also good) and for me this in combination with other atmosphere stuff I would get a real adrenalin rush.

---------- Post added at 15:10 ---------- Previous post was at 15:05 ----------

Don't you think that the suppression effect is/can be very "lethal" ingame? Maybe its better to teach AI and some players how suppressive fire works instead of relying on artificial sfx + penalties? Sorry but i have to disagree with "The sound should be unbearably loud and shocking when bullets impact nearby or tear the air apart near your head..." - its not only loudness that makes one afraid its more of those distinct sounds and the increase of it. Beeing pinned down by enemy fire one can still have a crystal clear view and still be able to hear/listen to his teammates. Perhaps a "more drama" option + icon for mp browser can be made on request? :D

Maybe not only louder sound but it need to be depressing (dont know how to descripe this good :P). And in combination with a low visual effect and penalty (like lower accuracy).

[dmarkwick 261]

For me the challenge of surviving and winning firefights is the thrill of arma, I take cover because I don't want to get shot.

Well, good for you I suppose :)

You can't fake an adrenaline rush, and an adrenaline rush is exactly what you are proposing to simulate.

Who says? You? I have a different idea :) You can't fake fear, but you can fake an analog of fear, which is "another good reason to hide", in this case an ineffective aim. The purpose is achieved (suppression) and the effect is achieved (reason to not do something stupid like poke your head out to snap-shoot an AI). It's all about appropriate simulation & analog where that can't be the case.

The topic is about such suppression effects, and I'm afraid that "just pretend more" often doesn't cut it. Let's face it, a LOT of problems can be overcome by just "pretending more" but we're looking for actual workable solutions here.

[NoRailgunner 0]

@G4meM0ment - wrong assumption that everytime you are suppressed or "pinned down" your vision and accuracy is going nuts. Imo BIS need to get sound right and the AI suppressive fire feature. If you play with players who know how to use suppresive fire and know how to break through/away - you don't need such extras because you do act "accordingly" on your own. Another point is how good/bad the mission design is and how every player feels as "ingame character" or "just as player playing stuff"....

[Madeon 6]

The topic is about such suppression effects, and I'm afraid that "just pretend more" often doesn't cut it.

Your missing the point. I take cover because I'm genuinely concerned that I am going to get hit by enemy fire, your the one suggesting a gimmick is needed to help "pretend" that your concerned about being hit. Suppression fire is used to pin the enemy, the reason they are pinned is because they know it's safer to hide behind cover, they aren't pinned because they suddenly can't see or aim properly...

[dmarkwick 261]

Your missing the point. I take cover because I'm genuinely concerned that I am going to get hit by enemy fire, your the one suggesting a gimmick is needed to help "pretend" that your concerned about being hit. Suppression fire is used to pin the enemy, the reason they are pinned is because they know it's safer to hide behind cover, they aren't pinned because they suddenly can't see or aim properly...

No sir, 'tis you who are not getting the point :) You are taking cover because you are genuinely concerned. That's all good, I do that myself. But I'm suggesting an ingame mechanic that encourages all players to act like that because it makes more sense to, while having exactly the same effect as fear. Just saying that you don't have that problem is not the topic here, it's not solving the issue of over-brave players, which do exist and are apparently a problem. I'm trying to address the problem. :)

[metalcraze 290]

Well if there will be no suppression effects for the player then it will be fair that AI won't suffer any suppression effects as well. Agreed?

[G4meM0ment 1]

@G4meM0ment - wrong assumption that everytime you are suppressed or "pinned down" your vision and accuracy is going nuts. Imo BIS need to get sound right and the AI suppressive fire feature. If you play with players who know how to use suppresive fire and know how to break through/away - you don't need such extras because you do act "accordingly" on your own. Another point is how good/bad the mission design is and how every player feels as "ingame character" or "just as player playing stuff"....

Yeah but for me to feel like a "ingame character" I need to have this, so I feel more involved, you know if I just know it will be deadly for my character its something else than its deadly for me in reality and I think arma wants to be a simulation, and this should assign this deadly feeling to me.

---------- Post added at 16:25 ---------- Previous post was at 16:21 ----------

Well if there will be no suppression effects for the player then it will be fair that AI won't suffer any suppression effects as well. Agreed?

Yeah I think so too, but I think that suppression is one of the most needed features in combat. For example pinning the enemy to surround or just to make him fear you hiding while the rest of your team tries to hit them.

When soldiers on combat cover others they often also use suppression to let their soldier come threw without getting hit or shot at.

So AI and players need to have this effect.

edit: I know that you agree with me... just wanted to expand it :P

Edited August 20, 2012 by G4meM0ment

[metalcraze 290]

Dude I agree with you. This comment is directed at Madeon & Co

Lowering accuracy by adding more aggressive weapon shake and slightly dimming the vision (like in TPW mod) is the great solution because no matter which kind of a player you are - you MUST take cover or hit the dirt to make it stop. And it doesn't happen after 2 or 3 bullets - it takes an (often MG) barrage to force that effect - so no annoying 100% suppression all the time either.

And AI suffers the same effects too.

[-=Grunt=- 10]

I kinda like Insurgency's (Half-Life 2 mod) suppression. It does a decent job at hindering a player's aim and making a player take cover.

[dragon01 903]

Maybe the weapon shake could depend on how many "scary" sounds are played near a unit, and how close. For example, a bullet crack would have a low "scaryness", which would mean you need a lot of them, close and in quick succession in order to make the aim shaky. On the other hand, this value would be higher for artillery fire, cracks from autocannon shells, engine sounds of enemy vehicles, etc. . On the other hand, "familiar" engine sounds or weapon fire sound (and maybe even voices) of your squadmates would be assigned a negative "scaryness". Also, a sound of an unidentified vehicle would have it's "scaryness" increased, meaning an unidentified, but presumably friendly tank is still a bit reassuring, but and unidentified OPFOR tank (even if actually driven by your teammate) would still give you a scare, and a bigger one than an identified enemy vehicle (because in the latter case, you at least know what you're dealing with). I can even imagine "demoralizing shout" and "motivational shout" commands for the comm menu, for taunting enemies and encouraging squadmates respectively.

This would work on both AI and the player, though the effect on the player should be rather subtle, essentially slightly increased fatigue. For AI, on the other hand, this would combine with certain other factors to create a "morale system" which would determine it's behavior. Come to think of it, this system is, in principle, very simple, but would essentially mean implementation of psychological warfare into AIII, something I never really seen in any game.