Steam discussion

[sudayev 27]

This thread is OK, because it's in the context of Valve's actions.

Valve tries to commercialize the modding scene by becoming the middle man, but in it's current model its not gonna work. We get no guarantees (mod update, save compatibility, compatibility with other mods etc) and it also raise serious worries about the abused content.

Donate? I don't mind - if it's good. Did that in past, because the author deserved it over a period of time. How am I supposed to buy a mod, hmmm... DLC that I barely know and never tried? Paying upfront for something that can be a garbage isn't the right thing!

A Simple "Donate" button was not good for Valve because it excludes Valve's profit from providing such service, so they decided to get in the middle and take the majority of share, 75% as Valve's cut? A grand fucking rip-off.

By the way... just look at the paid mods... They want 28Euro for the whole pack. And what d we get, some junk like yet another sword and yet another armor that's Nexus full of. It's more looks like DLC stuff rather than a good mod.

I don't like the direction of what's going on. Games are not ours, we only own some kind of subscriptions. Wonder when they will come up with monthly fees :/

Ps. I gotta go and subscribe me a few CIV5 mods before they will be offered as DLC content, ta-ta

[krycek 349]

Steam didn't bothered me much until now,paying for mods and 75% of the cash goes to Valve.This shit needs to be sabotaged to hell and back.Did Gaben got wacked and replaced by a clone from EA?

[cozza 24]

I've reskined a bush in the forest of Falkreath and debating wether to charge 100 dollars for it because "screw you I can now" :p

[sudayev 27]

First paid-mod pulled from workshop.

http://www.pcgamer.com/paid-for-skyrim-mod-removed-in-a-matter-of-hours/

[badluckburt 78]

First paid-mod pulled from workshop.

http://www.pcgamer.com/paid-for-skyrim-mod-removed-in-a-matter-of-hours/

I won't be throwing any more money in Steam's direction until this bullshit stops.

But just for a bit of balance, this is Chesko's letter to either the Steam or Skyrim community: https://www.evernote.com/shard/s53/sh/3c4f3e29-9b4e-41cf-9a72-1b3ed9f70c62/c727dccbb3398aebb5946afac7faaaea

Edited April 24, 2015 by BadLuckBurt

[Tonci87 163]

75% cut for Valve, is the developer share included in this or does it get applied on top? And Valve doesn´t pay the modder one single cent until he has accumulated 100$.

Let´s take a 1$ mod as an example and asume that the developer cut is already in those 75% (wich I believe it isn´t).

Your mod would have to be bought 400 times before you see any money. With 400 purchases you get 100$. In the same time Valve has made 300$ without doing fuck all for it. And if your mod doesn´t reach those 400 downloads Valve doesn´t have to pay you and can keep the rest of the money you earned too.

Giant filthy cashgrab.

Nexus Mods has a hard time ahead of it because people are pulling their mods from there to make it paid for on Steam.

And there is already trouble with mods beeing pulled, mods containing stolen stuff, no obligation to keep a mod working if it breaks, basically no consumer protection at all! And I don´t know about the US, but in the EU, and especially in Germany this is going to raise legal trouble with consumer protection once this get´s known more.

You want to charge for Mods? Better get a Legal expenses insurance!

Some nice comments on the affair:

Imagine DLC. It's fine, mostly, right?

Imagine DLC with no quality control made by random people on the internet that has no promises to be fixed, patched, improved or fixed, with literally no consequences for the developer, but valve make loads dosh from it.

So Bethesda ships a game knowing its broken, knowing that their community will fix it for themselves because they always do, and now there is the potential that Bethesda could get paid when the community does their job for them?

I despair to see what sort of state their next game will be in now that this system is in place.

why the fuck do Bethesda even get anything at the end of the day they should be paying the modders for fixing all of there games for them and making them more than a footnote in gaming history same as valve with halflife the only reason it exploded to the ledgendary success that it did was because of the modding community.

by all means add a donate button like others have sed but if you think im paying £2 for a fucking pink sword which someone's just retextured in 2 minutes and make no mistake the workshop is going to be flooded with shit like that just like early access and greenlight is.

They'r sadly mistaken I will never buy a mod not EVER i'd rarther just buy a new game.

Monetizing the mod scene is a terrible idea. It changes the whole character of it.

I have no problem donating to mods I've enjoyed. I donated £20 to Childs Play as thanks for Black Mesa for example.

But Steam are looking to change the whole character of the hobbyist modding scene, simply so they can take a cut of the sales. They're turning modding into more paid DLC, because then they get a percentage.

Steam's dominant market share means they can do this. But they shouldn't.

This is going to get very messy very quickly. The modding scene has always been, well, "unstable" is the word that springs to mind. People copy other people's work and fights ensue. With money in the mix... yeah it's going to get messy.

If we look at the history of modding, who does benefit the most from Mods? The players on one hand, but even more than them the Developer of said game (and often Valve). Mods make Games sell long past their release, some mods spark incredible waves of new sales (DayZ anyone?).

I very much doubt that Skyrim would be as popular as it is if mods were paid for from the get go, because without mods Skyrim is a pretty bland and often broken game. Pretty ungratefull move from Valve and Bethesda if you ask me.

There should be a prominently presented pay what you want option, and only that! Valve should take a minor cut for providing the service and nothing more.

[cozza 24]

Within the next week or month, those mods which have gone paid release, there will be free alternative versions available on the nexus. (hell probably on the workshop aswell)

I'm not talking about pirating it. I'm talking about just making your own version which emulates it.

Frostfall, Wet and Cold. There will be alternative versions which do the exact same thing just with different code. Nothing illegal or stealing about that. And people being sheep will go with the free version :p

[Tonci87 163]

Don´t forgett that BIS is going to do the same thing. Latest Oprep

http://dev.arma3.com/post/oprep-content-licensing

The most delicate one: we will be eventually looking at how to extend the existing DLC strategy to monetized user content using the Steam Workshop

So Steam has reached out to Developers with highly moddable games and told them how much cash they will make together.

Just to put this into perspective, BIS ows a great deal of their success (all of it in fact, because without mods they would have been broke after Arma 1) to modders, and now they will rip them off together with Valve.

[cozza 24]

Don´t forgett that BIS is going to do the same thing. Latest Oprep

http://dev.arma3.com/post/oprep-content-licensing

So Steam has reached out to Developers with highly moddable games and told them how much cash they will make together.

Just to put this into perspective, BIS ows a great deal of their success (all of it in fact, because without mods they would have been broke after Arma 1) to modders, and now they will rip them off together with Valve.

i wouldn't mind if BIS chose selected quality mods to be sold.

RHS being one. If charge some money for RHS. I would be happy buy it. I like RHS stuff and think they do deserve some money. Atm moment though 25% is too low. especially since valve is getting so much for doing fuck all really.

if payable mods came to Arma3, yes, BIS deserve some of it because its there game. the modder yes, because they built it. Vavle getting so much. They just host the bloody workshop.

With all the money Valve is making Half Life 3 better be pretty fucking good :p

[sudayev 27]

Mod piracy... I can't imagine living up to the day where people would pirate fucking mods haha

Edited April 24, 2015 by Sudayev

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Mod piracy... I imagine living up to the day where people would pirate fucking mods haha

[Tonci87 163]

Ah. That's why I've seen some people being banned in the last hours.

I think it's time to abandon ship.

Does GOG have automatic patching? (the main reason I use Steam, easy install and auto patching)

Edit:

WOW, Just saw someone getting Steam banned. (means no more access to Steam at all) for saying this:

"DONATE the money, most of the money goes the steam cause ♥♥♥♥ this ♥♥♥♥. DOnt buy DLCs, donate outside of steam if you want them to earn money. "

Edit

Holy crap, they are banning people left and right.

I heard Valve is Steam banning people for posting donation links, can that be true?

[sudayev 27]

Quite possible, I know that people got banned for posting donate links in CSGO workshop. Middle man don't like being screwed, simple.

[vran. 13]

I think it's good that high quality mods get a reward but the problem I see is the copy righted stuff. You can't monetize something you have no rights to and I doubt anyone makes completely everything all by themselves. I mean just for a retexture job you will need textures which you will likely find on free texture sites and edit them. But who says those are ment for commercial usage? Monetizing modding is asking for trouble, imo.

[nodunit 397]

I think it's good that high quality mods get a reward but the problem I see is the copy righted stuff. You can't monetize something you have no rights to and I doubt anyone makes completely everything all by themselves. I mean just for a retexture job you will need textures which you will likely find on free texture sites and edit them. But who says those are ment for commercial usage? Monetizing modding is asking for trouble, imo.

Plenty of people make things by their selves, some of us have a desire to pursue a gain of experience and you don't get that by simply downloading and using stuff other people made.

Now if you start talking about code and whatnot then yeah things get tricky.

That is not to say that people don't make their own scripts, but it is far more obvious as to wether or not "physical" content is custom or made by someone else, and if you have two scripts that behave very similar then things get problematic.

Also if you're making a movie based mod then don't even think about getting revenue, copyright and trademark claims will skin you alive.

Edited April 24, 2015 by NodUnit

[Tonci87 163]

Plenty of people make things by their selves, some of us have a desire to pursue a gain of experience and you don't get that by simply downloading and using stuff other people made.

Now if you start talking about code and whatnot then yeah things get tricky.

That is not to say that people don't make their own scripts, but it is far more obvious as to wether or not "physical" content is custom or made by someone else, and if you have two scripts that behave very similar then things get problematic.

Also if you're making a movie based mod then don't even think about getting revenue, copyright and trademark claims will skin you alive.

That brings another potential problem. If movie publishers have to issue a few DMCA claims to shut down mods they might crack down on any mod using their IPs, be it monetised or not. For now they usually just ignore mods or see them as fanservice.

[da12thMonkey 1943]

http://i.imgur.com/vO6updw.jpg

Oh man, you have no idea how much I just laughed after reading that.

[Derbysieger 11]

That brings another potential problem. If movie publishers have to issue a few DMCA claims to shut down mods they might crack down on any mod using their IPs, be it monetised or not. For now they usually just ignore mods or see them as fanservice.

It's not like we haven't seen mods being DMCA'd in the past (that LotR Mod comes to mind).

This whole point just made me think about another thing: What about weapon packs or other mods containing weapons and Vehicles? Wouldn't you need a license from the actual weapon manufacturer if you wanted to sell a mod containing M4's, M16's, M14's, HK 416/417 etc? Or if you make a mod of a popular vehicle? Say an A-10 or an AH-64...

I know that one of the third party devs (VEAO) for DCS had to delay their BAE Systems Hawk T1A module because they had problems acquiring a commercial license from BAE (I think when they first asked they were actually presented with a license to produce the real aircraft lol).

Granted, DCS does way more than simply using the aircraft name and visual design and I really don't have any knowledge about all this legal stuff but it is still something to consider and I can't imagine that mods like this can be legally sold without a proper license from the manufacturer.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Derbysieger

[nodunit 397]

It's not like we haven't seen mods being DMCA'd in the past (that LotR Mod comes to mind).

This whole point just made me think about another thing: What about weapon packs or other mods containing weapons and Vehicles? Wouldn't you need a license from the actual weapon manufacturer if you wanted to sell a mod containing M4's, M16's, M14's, HK 416/417 etc? Or if you make a mod of a popular vehicle? Say an A-10 or an AH-64...

I know that one of the third party devs (VEAO) for DCS had to delay their BAE Systems Hawk T1A module because they had problems acquiring a commercial license from BAE (I think when they first asked they were actually presented with a license to produce the real aircraft lol).

Granted, DCS does way more than simply using the aircraft name and visual design and I really don't have any knowledge about all this legal stuff but it is still something to consider and I can't imagine that mods like this can be legally sold without a proper license from the manufacturer.

You mean the AAH-82.

I jest, for my part I have no worries about my apache because it won't be sold, its too complex and prone to breaking with too many things to fix, and despite Franze and I making the majority of it, it still relied on others for some considerable things.

We couldn't in good conscience or rightly host it to be paid for when Robert Hammer contributed sounds, Noubernou shared and explored with Franze what became our cockpit interaction system, and of course General Barrons pitch commands that do all kinds of magic codey stuff.

Not to mention with its liability to become a hangar queen, Franze and I would have a crowd with pitch forks at the ready all the time.

We've considered a donation idea but even then there is concern that people will have the mentality of 'donated so fix it' so we're keeping it simple and free.

Edited April 24, 2015 by NodUnit

[Derbysieger 11]

Oh hey, NodUnit! :D

I didn't even look at who posted^^

Would renaming the aircraft/weapon/vehicle whatever be enough though? What about the design of the aircraft/weapon/vehicle itself?

I completely understand your point of view and I agree with what you are saying. If I'm paying for something I expect it to work, I expect a certain degree of quality assurance and I expect a fix if something breaks.

Here is where I actually think that people worry too much. If payed for mods don't provide sufficient support, are low quality, too pricey or generally don't live up to expectations I think that word will quickly get around and people simply won't buy and that's it. Generally, the way Valve implemented it, I can't see this working outside of games like DotA 2, TF2 and CSGO and even within these communities there have been problems with stolen content in the past.

I can't even begin to imagine what a clusterf**** this will become within big modding communities once more developers incorporate this model into their games.

And as Tonci already mentioned, the EU has very strict consumer protection and Valve is already on the radar of EU courts so this opens a whole other world of potential problems with the way Vavle implemented it.

[sudayev 27]

Check this out, a story of a modder who... lost control over his mod. Now the mod belongs to Valve :D

http://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/33qcaj/the_experiment_has_failed_my_exit_from_the/

lolcontent in action.

http://www.pcgamer.com/fake-protest-mods-hit-the-steam-workshop/ lolcontent in action.

[Dwarden 1125]

those about cuts, read those additional rules pages, in of them in section 2. is clearly explained the % and values ranges are setup by publisher and split inbetween

main mod developer, mod sub-developers, game publisher (game developer? if not same), Valve (and there is option for share of this to go to defined services like Polycount)

and that excludes taxes ofc

[Tonci87 163]

those about cuts, read those additional rules pages, in of them in section 2. is clearly explained the % and values ranges are setup by publisher and split inbetween

main mod developer, mod sub-developers, game publisher (game developer? if not same), Valve (and there is option for share of this to go to defined services like Polycount)

and that excludes taxes ofc

Yeah in other words modders could be getting much less than hey would with paypal donations, in part due to a smaller userbase (wich naturally happens once something is paid instead of free)

[vran. 13]

It's not like we haven't seen mods being DMCA'd in the past (that LotR Mod comes to mind).

This whole point just made me think about another thing: What about weapon packs or other mods containing weapons and Vehicles? Wouldn't you need a license from the actual weapon manufacturer if you wanted to sell a mod containing M4's, M16's, M14's, HK 416/417 etc? Or if you make a mod of a popular vehicle? Say an A-10 or an AH-64...

I know that one of the third party devs (VEAO) for DCS had to delay their BAE Systems Hawk T1A module because they had problems acquiring a commercial license from BAE (I think when they first asked they were actually presented with a license to produce the real aircraft lol).

Granted, DCS does way more than simply using the aircraft name and visual design and I really don't have any knowledge about all this legal stuff but it is still something to consider and I can't imagine that mods like this can be legally sold without a proper license from the manufacturer.

Exactly. You would need a license for those guns or vehicles to sell your mod or game legally. It's probably why ArmA 3 became more fantasy, with made up weapons and vehicles, even when their sister company, BI Sim, is supplying world armies with customized VBS copies.

[SaOk 112]

This was priceless :D