Syria - What should we do if anything?

[eble 3]

BBC reporting FSA ethnic cleansing parts of Syria - go the freedom fighters hey.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18930876

[oxmox 73]

Errr the photos are from Zimbabwe, what a time it was! Your video shows widespread damage to buildings supposedly around a relatively undamaged tractor where the suicide bomber was supposed to be sitting. It doesn't add up - think it through slowly and carefully. Look at how much damage is done to the buildings and think about how much explosive that would take. The origin is supposed to be the tractor, don't you think it should be on fire or at least missing some parts? It has one flat tyre and a slightly bent steering wheel. All the bodywork and the toolbox behind the driver's seat is undamaged. It's obviously faked.

All I can say is thank you for posting a video that illustrates everything I said on the previous page about RT is true lol.

Actually if you would have stopped for a minute, a lot of the posts would have been unnecessary. The footage after the allegedly auction was a simple cut. Maybe the footage has nothing to do with the allegedly auction, nobody knows who did die there and nobody of us knows what destruction did happen in this area in general since we all know heavy fights are happening there. Like I did write already, it can be a fake of course. RT is for sure not a creme de la creme broadcast station, but has similar issues like Al Jazeera or Fox News. But it offers neverless somtimes interesting reports, the display of some parts in the Georgia conflict in 2008 was actually even better than in our own media.

The Victoria Waterfalls/Zambesi are really nice in Zimbabwe, amazing......I did read there is a big chance to see lots of wild animals too in a certain season.

Edited July 20, 2012 by oxmox

[PELHAM 10]

BBC reporting FSA ethnic cleansing parts of Syria - go the freedom fighters hey.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18930876

Nothing unexpected, this is what happens when the fighting is prolonged by certain nations delaying the UN peace plan. Things get bitter. I'm sure Putin and Hu Jintao are pleased with their progress.

Homs looks like this now after months of government bombardment:

There are many other places in a similar condition. Some of the hardliners will have decided that people need somewhere to live and their rival Iraqi Shia can go home now, some will not have required any excuse at all. Not very fair but it's how things are when people get bitter and desperate. Hopefully it is only temporary.

The Victoria Waterfalls/Zambesi are really nice in Zimbabwe, amazing......I did read there is a big chance to see lots of wild animals too in a certain season.

I have visited the area many times, flown over the falls in a light aircraft/short air safari and done the Zambezi River cruise which was a bit boring, but not recently for obvious reasons. Most people recommend going in winter to see animals because the bush dies down when it's dry and animals stay near the water. I would say do the opposite and go in late February/March when it's green and hot as it looks better and there is more water going over the falls. You don't see much near the falls apart from very large baboons, for other things you need to go to the game parks or up river. Don't forget your Malaria tablets and read up on something called bilharzia which if left untreated will cause you much harm.

Edited July 21, 2012 by PELHAM

[batto 17]

http://www.thenation.com/blog/168960/when-suicide-bombings-and-ieds-are-good-thing#

[eble 3]

http://www.thenation.com/blog/168960/when-suicide-bombings-and-ieds-are-good-thing#

Good read

[katipo66 94]

So they more or less endorse something that they supposedly fighting against?

Edited July 21, 2012 by Katipo66

[eble 3]

So they more or less endorse something that they supposedly fighting against?

The Whitehouse is in a hard position, US troops are killed quite often by IED's, yet they want to show support for the IED in Syria. THe most telling part was when the Iraq campaign was going strong you would have thought Iran had invented the IED, because everyone that happened the finger was pointed etc.

[PELHAM 10]

So they more or less endorse something that they supposedly fighting against?

That's not what the spokesman said, no one endorses that sort of thing. It's difficult to strongly criticise it though, as it was targeted against military leaders who have intentionally turned their army on the populace. There is a stark difference between that and e.g. the Taliban who suicide attack market places so they can engage those coming to help the injured civilians afterwards.

The Whitehouse is in a hard position, US troops are killed quite often by IED's, yet they want to show support for the IED in Syria. THe most telling part was when the Iraq campaign was going strong you would have thought Iran had invented the IED, because everyone that happened the finger was pointed etc.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/26/world/middleeast/us-says-parts-smuggled-to-iran-used-in-ieds.html

Electronic parts made in Minnesota were smuggled through Singapore to Iran, and some of them ended up in the remote controls of makeshift bombs seized by American forces in Iraq, the Justice Department said on Tuesday.

Edited July 22, 2012 by PELHAM

[hellfire257 3]

It annoys me that people are playing politics with human lives. I doubt that will ever change though. Something needs to be done to stop this, but it looks like China and Russia are quite happy to let the slaughter continue. Is it money, investments? I don't know, but I wish they would just stop being awkward.

[sanctuary 19]

Of course it's always a question of financial and zone of influence interest, none of the politicians and the big money people that back them up really care about human life.

This time it's Russia and China that have lot of money to gain from not allowing a full stop of the "let's kill civilians" that both sides of the Syrian internal war are doing, and so will make it so nothing change.

Another example of how much caring for human life the big guns are : see the situation of some Pygmy ethnic group since decades :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmy#Reports_of_genocide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmy#Slavery

Yet, none of the big guns of the security council have put anything in motion to make that stop, there's an attempt from the UNICEF but without any results, reason is obviously because there's no money or power for the big guns to gain from that.

[eble 3]

That's not what the spokesman said, no one endorses that sort of thing. It's difficult to strongly criticise it though, as it was targeted against military leaders who have intentionally turned their army on the populace. There is a stark difference between that and e.g. the Taliban who suicide attack market places so they can engage those coming to help the injured civilians afterwards.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/26/world/middleeast/us-says-parts-smuggled-to-iran-used-in-ieds.html

So some smuggled parts that went to Iran and ended up in IED means Iran make all IED? you telling me the Iraqi's never made a home grown IED ever? c'mon.

Sorry I don't see it, quite a bit of film came out of Iraq when the US decided to make the whole Iraqi army redundent and we had 8 weeks of slaughter and general mayhem, it show may groups of ex-soldiers in old units, who were fighting and making guess what IED's from hidden cache of very large munitions.

And as for the Afghanis they don't anyone teaching them about IED as they have been making/using them for the last 30 years.

[PELHAM 10]

Sigh, if you bothered to do some research eble you would know it was more than that, a specific shaped charge device was manufactured which was very sophisticated and combined with the parts and other intelligence, it was obvious where that type of IED was being made and that support was given at a high level by the Iranian Government. I'm not taking about an artillery shell or a mine wired in the road, that anyone can do, there were other kinds of things made that were beyond the capability of a back street workshop and required precision tooling, unique components etc.

@Sanctuary - there was not much anyone could do about the Congo because progress was blocked by the involvement in the war of the African Union and 6+ other nations had troops on the ground for various nefarious reasons. Already covered this sort of illogical nonsense several pages back. I suggest you read the history of the Congo conflicts and you will note who is to blame for it.

Edited July 22, 2012 by PELHAM

[sanctuary 19]

I suggest you use your own advice and go learn more about Congo indeed, you have both countries facing internal rampages so can you then tell me why you think that "there's not much anyone can do" regarding Congo while there's something to do in Syria ?

[oxmox 73]

Hellfire 257 talks about money and investment.

Syria plays actually a role when it comes to the future of the energy market. There are some interesting points about Syria and the current but especially future of gas supply competes with russia.

Natural Gas in form of FLNG - Floating Liquified Natural Gas - is actually more and more an alternative to Oil, already power producer switch to it. With a new extraction technology, the efficiency of natural gas is much better than years before and therefore Natural Gas will play a bigger role in the future than before. As another example, gas will be important for the shipping, at least in the EU there are plans already for this new type of drive. There are much more examples to find about Gas as an alternative energy ressource to Oil. By the way, Japan is currently one of the highest natural gas importer since the country did shutdown their nuclear power plants.

GAZPROM, a russian huge energy company delivers most of the demanded Natural Gas to the whole European Union. Only some years ago there was a big debate about the dependence on Russian gas and therefore the Project Nabucca was introduced. In other words the EU is looking for an alternative way for their Gas delieveries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabucco_pipeline

The former plans were halted due to high costs and an therefore an alternative plan was needed. The EU, Turkey, Iraq and Mashreq countries (Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria) reached a consensus to connect Arabian natural gas pipeline to Turkey, Iraq and the EU through Nabucco and other pipelines at a commission meeting in Brussels. http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/turkey/8871261.asp?gid=231&sz=55004

The so called Arab Gas Pipeline looks like this:

It starts in Egypt, goes around Israel and ends at the moment in Homs/Syria. The plans are to connect the Arab Gas Pipeline with Nabucco. In 2010 huge gas ressources were found in Israel/Lebanon by the way.

The Iran, Iraq and Syria signed an agreement in 2011 for the biggest natural gas pipeline deal in the middle east. Tehran also aims to extend the pipeline to Lebanon and the Mediterranean to supply gas to Europe. http://af.reuters.com/article/energyOilNews/idAFL6E7IO07C20110724

This project is actually in competition with the Nabucco-Arab pipeline net, a pipeline around 3000km long which delivers the Natural Gas from Iran via Iraq to Syria, where it allegedly be actually shipped to Europe in Tartus. While Iran holds the world's second-largest gas reserves, it currently has no major net exports, partly due to international sanctions.

Who is sitting in Tartus with a naval base...the russians.

Qatar is currently one of the largest Natural Gas exporter in the world. And also Qatar is interested to export its natural ressources to Europe. There are plans to build the Qatar-Turkey Gas Pipeline, which would cross Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Syria and may linked to the Nabucco pipeline net.

The Iran holds the second largest proven natural gas ressources in the world after Russia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_natural_gas_proven_reserves

Edited July 22, 2012 by oxmox

[PELHAM 10]

I suggest you use your own advice and go learn more about Congo indeed, you have both countries facing internal rampages so can you then tell me why you think that "there's not much anyone can do" regarding Congo while there's something to do in Syria ?

We already covered it several pages back - can you please use the search button before posting.

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?135597-Syria-What-should-we-do-if-anything&p=2185336&highlight=congo#post2185336

Can I also ask why we are discussing events that occurred 10+ years ago as if they are current and WTF DRC has to do with Syria as they are completely different situations? The UN Security Council has deployed 1000's of peace keeping troops there for over 2 decades and western nations have donated $billions trying to solve the problems, the military leaders guilty of the worst crimes are now guests of the ICC and the situation is as stable as it can be under the circumstances with the only major trouble in the Kivu region. There is a reasonably stable government in DRC, by African standards, who cooperates with the UN. So just what is it you want done? As for learning about the DRC, I'm from Africa and visited the region in 1983, so please don't lecture me on the subject, it's guaranteed failure.

US suspends aid to Rwanda amid eastern DRC violence

http://www.un.org/en/peacekeeping/missions/monuc/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court_investigation_in_the_Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo

The Government in Syria are not complying with the UN approved peace plan and have disrupted UN observers daily, violence is taking place across the entire country with an organised and centrally controlled modern army firing heavy weapons at it's own towns and villages. The Arab League have asked for international intervention and "called on Syrian President Bashar al-Assad to swiftly give up power in order to end his country's unrest". The current situations in DRC/Syria don't compare at all so mystified by your logic. I would suggest reading the peace plan as it will illustrate precisely why there is international pressure - Assad has broken the agreement he signed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kofi_Annan_peace_plan_for_Syria

To this end, the Syrian government should immediately cease troop movements towards, and end the use of heavy weapons in, population centres, and begin pullback of military concentrations in and around population centres.

Edited July 22, 2012 by PELHAM

[sanctuary 19]

It's you that want to discuss events from 10 years ago.

And perhaps you may not know, but today's situation may anyways has a lot to do with event of 10 years ago don't you think.

What i was mentionning is a simple example of something that is existing -now- to show that the "big guns" aren't caring because nothing is interesting them in term of power and wealth , while there's obviously crimes against humanity.

While Syria interest them only because there's big money there, and middle east is a strategic location that is always interesting for the big guns in term of control.

And i don't care where you come from, it has nothing to do with the subject, you're from "Africa" but obviously not from Congo and so it does not make you a specialist on every countries of the whole continent, especially considering how complex that contient is, the same as myself being from "Europe" does not make expert in german political intrigues.

[PELHAM 10]

It's you that want to discuss events from 10 years ago.

And perhaps you may not know, but today's situation may anyways has a lot to do with event of 10 years ago don't you think.

What i was mentionning is a simple example of something that is existing -now- to show that the "big guns" aren't caring because nothing is interesting them in term of power and wealth , while there's obviously crimes against humanity.

While Syria interest them only because there's big money there, and middle east is a strategic location that is always interesting for the big guns in term of control.

And i don't care where you come from, it has nothing to do with the subject, you're from "Africa" but obviously not from Congo and so it does not make you a specialist on every countries of the whole continent, especially considering how complex that contient is, the same as myself being from "Europe" does not make expert in german political intrigues.

No you brought up the Congo war, I didn't - your post #285

One thing you do not realize about the various Pigmy peoples is that they have been enslaved and mistreated for 100's of years across several different countries in west and central Africa. The whole thing is cultural and various religious beliefs are involved, the good ol USA tabling a UN resolution wouldn't make the slightest difference.

For the reasons already stated twice now, the 2 situations don't compare.

In Congo the forces of 6+ nations were involved in the country and the regional organisation did not want external interference, that's what makes it different, I can't obviously force you to read that info, but I did provide the links. The situation in Congo is stable at the moment apart from a small rebellion in Kivo so no idea what point you are trying to make.

I have travelled extensively in Sub-Saharan Africa including the Congo, I bow to your superior knowledge at sitting in front of a PC making MODS but you make no sense or logic on Africa, you couldn't even get the time line of events correct lol.

Edited July 23, 2012 by PELHAM

[oxmox 73]

A Syrian Bloodbath revisited: Searching For The Truth Behind The Houla Massacre

Interesting article with videos of several eyewitnesses

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/a-look-back-at-the-houla-massacre-in-syria-a-845854.html

Revolt against Assad: Syria’s Christians Flee Radical Rebels

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/aufstand-in-syrien-christen-fliehen-vor-radikalisierten-rebellen-a-845962.html

Translated in english:

http://www.news-round.co.uk/business/revolt-against-assad-syrias-christians-flee-radical-rebels/

Edited July 24, 2012 by oxmox

[spooky lynx 73]

Oh really?... Seems like media try to clean all the excrement they produced earlier. FSA failed to storm Damascus despite all that angry and brave cries, so it's time to 'revisit' and 'search for the truth'... ROFL!

[gammadust 12]

Oh really?... Seems like media try to clean all the excrement they produced earlier. FSA failed to storm Damascus despite all that angry and brave cries, so it's time to 'revisit' and 'search for the truth'... ROFL!

I would say never too late to right a wrong. But indeed the damage done is hard to retract, even if truth now comes with the same amount of highlight with which one-sided views were previously reported.

A look on the media coverage on the matter: 'Shades Of Grey'- Rethinking The Houla Massacre (Medialens)

[spooky lynx 73]

I would say never too late to right a wrong. But indeed the damage done is hard to retract, even if truth now comes with the same amount of highlight with which one-sided views were previously reported.

In some cases it's too late - people are dead, houses are destroyed, cars are burned. I knew it may turn to the same direction as in august of 2008. But again the price of it is hundreds of human lives.

[PELHAM 10]

A Syrian Bloodbath revisited: Searching For The Truth Behind The Houla Massacre

Interesting article with videos of several eyewitnesses

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/a-look-back-at-the-houla-massacre-in-syria-a-845854.html

Some people have short attention spans - if you read that all the way to the end, the eye witnesses and the conclusion places the blame for the massacre directly on the Syrian army and Shabiya ROFL.

The men with shaved heads and red arm bands are the Shabiha Militia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabiha

WITNESS VII describes how he was ordered to transport poor people and pay them to tell the governments version of events. Thats where the other news stories came from. It concludes with:

If the rebels had truly committed the massacre, why has the army continued to fire at and shell Taldou for months, including the days when the SPIEGEL reporters were there? And if the FSA was behind the massacre, why did a large number of army officers from Houla defect to the FSA afterwards?

Posting news articles that you haven't read properly and actually take the opposite view to the point you are trying to make is really dumb guys lol.

@gammadust have you noticed that all the conspiracy theorist websites you quote here have something in common? They all have a donate button on the main page. They also notice that the more crap they write on behalf of dictators and other nefarious people, the higher their donations are. Is their motivation really truth or an easy living?

Edited July 24, 2012 by PELHAM

[oxmox 73]

Posting news articles that you haven't read properly and actually take the opposite view to the point you are trying to make is really dumb guys lol.

I didnt try to make any point, only posted two articles which ...I actually did read. Are you reading a crystall ball to come to such a conclusion ? lol In general you will find press releases with different statements from eyewitnesses, its just the latest I did read with press people on the spot. The case is still not solved and seems to leave much to be desired in comparison to Tremesh, which was actually a wrong report uncovered by UN Observer. Worrying is the article about the Christians.

Edited July 24, 2012 by oxmox

[gammadust 12]

@PELHAM

Beyond some google statistics and wikipedia, which was used only for minor references in 2 or 3 instances, you will find:

Principles/Premises followed

An academic library - uniset.ca - Nuremberg Trial references

Contextual information

Armed Forces Journal - armedforcesjournal.com - in reference to Ralph Peters' "Blood Borders" and Map of "New Middle East"

A Turkish daily - todayszaman.com - reference of US/Turkey friction in face of "Blood Borders" Map

The Atlantic - theatlantic.com - contextual reference to original "Clash of Civilizations" by Bernard Lewis

Henry M. Jackson Foundation - on early conjectures about "Rethinking the Middle East" (1992) Bernard Lewis

Poetic interlude

Fordham Jesuit University of New York - in reference to a famous poem exposing colonialism

Syria Specific (mainstream news)

Wall Street Journal - US corroboration of Syria version of events regarding the downed Turkish RF-4 Phantom

New York Times - regarding the Action Group plan for peace

AFP - Syrian Oposition rejection of peace plan

Deutsche Welle - dw.de - "Friends of Syria" conference coverage

Syria Specific (non-mainstream news)

SANA - Syrian News Agency - Syrian Foreign Minister about the Turkish RF-4

Human Rights Watch - hrw.org - article on abuses commited by Armed Oposition in Syria

Global Research - the only google news result which made news of the above HRW report

A Lebanese Daily - al-akhbar.com - author which is also columnist for huffington post - opinion piece on US' "regime change" Foreign Policy in practice

US official document - USSF T18-01 Manual - exposure of the criminal (by any international standards) "Unconventional Warfare" policy advanced by the US military

Media overwatch on the Houla incident

A donation funded media watchdog - medialens.org - which applies the "propaganda model" in the study of so called "systemic biases" of corporate financed media in current main issues (to expose media bias on the Houla massacre coverage and how they are instrumental in furthering a specific political agenda, ie. "regime change")

As you may verify, all "conspiracy theorists".

These, infact for the most part, are references to those creators/executors which keep away from mainstream view an actual criminal agenda (in light of Nuremberg Principles), and to the surprise of some, exposing themselves in their very own words in some luminous instances.

In a very specific sense some of the above are indeed "conspiracy theorists" but only to the extent that aside of executing hidden agendas they devised its theoretical foundations. But this latter meaning is a departure from the infantile sense in which you use it, merely to label those who make efforts to expose the original conspiracies based on the facts available.

Really, basing the legitimacy/reliability/merit of a source of information depending if it has a "donate" button on it? "write on behalf of dictators and other nefarious people, the higher their donations are."?

I have put forward 16 references, one of them depends on a "donate" button, and suddenly all references are "conspiracy theorist websites". This is intellectualy dishonest to put it mildly.

You reveal a basic view of the world, and dismiss any counter-official interpretation of facts as "conspiracy theory" unaware of what that actually means. You have been cought red-handed, twice by my acount, misrepresenting facts (purpose of US Unconventional Warfare SF Training Circular) and, in addition, by diverting from off-topic while attempting, with no basis at all, to invalidate the information which was brought to this forum in good faith, up for anyone to take their own conclusions.

Certainly you are entitled to your drivel, but don't expect expect everyone to put up with it. Learn to engage in a discussion first, we'll share opinions later. Through with you. Regards.

[PELHAM 10]

@oxmox

The comments are not just aimed at you oxmox - spooky and gamma have also chosen to ignore the witness statements rofl. So you agree with your own link that the Shabiha are responsible for the Houla massacre with Syrian army support as stated by the witnesses? Or are you still not reading that part? (You actually posted 3 links - so I'll assume the 2 you say you read were the other 2?)

Tremseh was not an error, the UN were quite open about what they found, the army raided homes belonging to defectors and rebels, causing the FSA to try to defend the town later in the day. The army then used either 50-100 artillery shells or rockets to bombard the town. Most of the dead were males of fighting age, but under the terms of the agreed peace plan the Syrian Army is not supposed to be doing that is it?

the (UN) observers had confirmed that heavy weapons were used, in violation of a commitment given to Mr Annan by the Syrian authorities.

"A wide range of weapons were used, including artillery, mortars and small arms," UN spokeswoman Sausan Ghosheh said in a statement.

The UN were delayed for 48hrs by the army before they could enter Tremseh and local people could not talk freely because of the Army presence during the UN investigation.

@gammadust - I said:

have you noticed that all the conspiracy theorist websites you quote here have something in common? They all have a donate button

The 2 such websites you quoted do have donate buttons - medialens and global research - so I was being perfectly honest rofl (missed the global research one didn't you? it's the one after their online store FPDR)

Medialens' (run by just 2 watchdogs, scuse me, people) donate button is right next to their bookshop, the 2nd to largest graphic on their homepage is an advert for their latest book.......

Edited July 24, 2012 by PELHAM