Syria - What should we do if anything?

[batto 17]

PELHAM is perfect example of double standards.

4 videos that don't show any problems in Qatar at all, the 1st vid is footage from Bahrain, the 2nd & 3rd show Qatari support for the Arab Spring and the 4th is footage of a fire in a shopping mall, it was just a fire nothing more, which all proves nothing?

Tries to prove suffering of Syrian people with ONE video of ONE rebel.

The Bahrain crackdown was criticised widely by all western Governments and was eventually criticised by the Bahraini Governments own commission.

In interview Assad criticized civilian deaths too.

The government promised to introduce reforms and avoid repeating the "painful events".

In interview Assad promised elections and reforms in Syria has already started.

They acknowledged their human rights abuses and the deaths of 95 protesters.

In interview Assad assured ZDF reporter that soldiers convinced of civilian murder were punished according to law (I don't call armed murderers "protersters").

And this was PELHAM reply:

Nice vid with some very easy going questions, no doubt pre-approved lol.

Discussion with him is wasted effort (as he always skip questions that he's afraid to answer).

[vilas 473]

in our own countries we have a lot of crimes made by people connected with rulers (for example economic crimes or simply crimes commited by relatives of someone important which are not punished by any court) and injustice , first our own countries should be cleaned, than other

[gammadust 12]

(...)

In Syria there are about 100 deaths per day, that is why everyone is more concerned about it.

(...)

Precisely! 16 months ago there were none in Syria. And 100 deaths a day of which its imputability is yet disputed in many observations.

But if genuine and legitimate griefings existed in Syria before this "uprising", the duty/right to overcome them lies with the Syrians alone.

I bring attention to the following official US military document graphic:

This is part of the Unconventional Warfare (UW) Manual of the US Military’s Special Forces (2010 version)

Note first three phases' descriptions at the base:

Dissatisfaction With Political, Economic, Social, Administrative, and Other Conditions, National Aspiration (Independence) or Desire for Ideological and Other Changes.

My point being that this starting point and subsequent roadmap to "Large-Scale Guerrilla Actions" could apply to any "Healthy Western Democracy", pretty much as this plan is being currently worked in Syria (even if adapted), or previously in Lybia, but also Egypt and other Middle-East countries. The relevant label of this figure is actually: "Preparation of Resistance Cadres and Mobilization of Population" / "Preparation of Parallel Hierarchies for Taking Over Government Positions".

From the introductory remarks of the mentioned doc.:

The intent of U.S. [unconventional Warfare] UW efforts is to exploit a hostile power’s political, military, economic, and psychological vulnerabilities by developing and sustaining resistance forces to accomplish U.S. strategic objectives…For the foreseeable future, U.S. forces will predominantly engage in irregular warfare (IW) operations.

Finally and citing a article which reviewed this US Manual

Now, how and why would an uncommitted – and ostensibly peaceful - majority of the population respond to the introduction of violence by opposition groups? The UW manual tells us there is an easy way to spin this one:

If retaliation [by the target government] occurs, the resistance can exploit the negative consequences to garner more sympathy and support from the population by emphasizing the sacrifices and hardship the resistance is enduring on behalf of “the people.†If retaliation is ineffective or does not occur, the resistance can use this as proof of its ability to wage effect combat against the enemy. In addition, the resistance can portray the inability or reluctance of the enemy to retaliate as a weakness, which will demoralize enemy forces and instill a belief in their eventual defeat.

article: Going Rogue: America's Unconventional Warfare in the Mideast (recomended reading)

cited document: Special Forces Unconventional Warfare pp13

This is by US' Official Policy the very admition of what constitutes a Crime Against Peace. If one still keeps the legitimate reserve that afterall this document is just theoretical in form (despite condemnable), one just has to look at Syria and Lybia to verify and confirm the actual realization on the ground of such plans in what amounts to the crime of highest order ever internationaly recognized.

The USA, specifically by its interveening leadership, is presently a rogue state and a serious threat to world peace, several orders of magnitude higher than any other state on earth however its human rights record.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Are you implying that what is happening in Syria is due to the US ?

[nettrucker 142]

Precisely! 16 months ago there were none in Syria. And 100 deaths a day of which its imputability is yet disputed in many observations.

But if genuine and legitimate griefings existed in Syria before this "uprising", the duty/right to overcome them lies with the Syrians alone.

I bring attention to the following official US military document graphic:

http://i.imgur.com/0hJYRl.jpg

This is part of the Unconventional Warfare (UW) Manual of the US Military’s Special Forces (2010 version)

Note first three phases' descriptions at the base:

My point being that this starting point and subsequent roadmap to "Large-Scale Guerrilla Actions" could apply to any "Healthy Western Democracy", pretty much as this plan is being currently worked in Syria (even if adapted), or previously in Lybia, but also Egypt and other Middle-East countries. The relevant label of this figure is actually: "Preparation of Resistance Cadres and Mobilization of Population" / "Preparation of Parallel Hierarchies for Taking Over Government Positions".

From the introductory remarks of the mentioned doc.:

Finally and citing a article which reviewed this US Manual

This is by US' Official Policy the very admition of what constitutes a Crime Against Peace. If one still keeps the legitimate reserve that afterall this document is just theoretical in form (despite condemnable), one just has to look at Syria and Lybia to verify and confirm the actual realization on the ground of such plans in what amounts to the crime of highest order ever internationaly recognized.

The USA, specifically by its interveening leadership, is presently a rogue state and a serious threat to world peace, several orders of magnitude higher than any other state on earth however its human rights record.

Couldn't agree more with you.

cheers

[gammadust 12]

Not merely implying... sustainable interpretation of the current events leads to the conclusion that the violence occuring in Syria and other places is the design of the USA leadership. (the emphasis is not irrelevant)

[ProfTournesol 956]

I know conspiracy theory may sound funky on the InterWebz, even after the pitiful Iraki venture of the Bush family, but the Arab freedom movements against their governements are more than real and don't need any strategical plan of the almighty USA, which are also loosing allies such as Egypt.

[PELHAM 10]

The big flaw in the conspiracy theory is that the US has no boots on the ground in Syria, it's the other members of the Arab league that are supporting and arming the rebels. Also the US must be absolute masters of persuasion, millions of people across 2 different continents all behaving in the same way lol. Sorry gammadust it doesn't make sense, also extrapolating 1 army manual, which was originally written during WW2, and trying to say it's evidence of something here is rather a big leap of the imagination lol.

Your legal thinking is also deeply flawed as a crime against peace is perpetrated by one country against another in international law. In this case ,as in Libya, it's ordinary citizens fighting against a corrupt Dictator internally. It's is obvious from their disorganisation that this wasn't planned, they were forced into it when attacked by their own government. I think most people with any sense of right and justice hoped for the end of Gadaffi and Assad, the world is better off without them.

@batto - already commented on Assad's so called reforms and fake election, don't see why I should repeat myself. As for the suffering in Syria it's well documented, if you choose not to believe what is obvious that's your business.

Edited July 19, 2012 by PELHAM

[eble 3]

If the CIA were not on the ground in the Syria/Turkey border area they wouldn't be doing there jobs lol.

Someone is training and supplying weapons on a large scale to the FSA and I don't believe it's all Turkey's doing, just a month ago, Syrian tanks roamed at will, now plenty of footage on the net of tanks taking very good anti tank fire.

Well the West/Pro Western Arab countries look like they might get want they want, how long before Israel launch pre-emptive strikes on the Chemical weapons? any guess?

[ProfTournesol 956]

If the CIA were not on the ground in the Syria/Turkey border area they wouldn't be doing there jobs lol.

Someone is training and supplying weapons on a large scale to the FSA and I don't believe it's all Turkey's doing, just a month ago, Syrian tanks roamed at will, now plenty of footage on the net of tanks taking very good anti tank fire.

Well the West/Pro Western Arab countries look like they might get want they want, how long before Israel launch pre-emptive strikes on the Chemical weapons? any guess?

Of course, major countries are defending their strategical interests and supplying directly or indirectly weapons to both sides, it doesn't mean that the revolt was planned by the CIA.

[gammadust 12]

@PELHAM

Not a matter of persuasion at all, surely these countries' the peoples' grievances are real, they don't need any persuasion from anyone, one can be certain they understand better their own issues than any western observer. The problem is leading and committing the people through a given course of action to deal with genuine problems, and at the same time, along a plan which predetermines civil war as its ultimate outcome.

This, as an exterior influence, on a country certainly fits the Nuremberg Principle VI's description:

(a) Crimes against peace:

(i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;

(ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i).

But it is specially important to note, that the current stage of the conflict is not that of "war of aggression", right now we are observing the build up to justification "by any means necessary" to ultimately allow militar intervention in a sovereign under the guise of "humanitarian reasons" and "responsability to protect" misnomers. These are all fine justifications were they not engendered artificialy by external countries exacerbating real internal conditions, of which the USA' S.Dep. is to significant extent a participant, if not the leading entity in such criminal agenda (ie. "Friends of Syria").

Regarding the mentioned manual, we're looking at a pretty recent update (2010, while even more recent versions can be found). Also what part of "(...)For the foreseeable future, U.S. forces will predominantly engage in irregular warfare (IW) operations." is useful to dismiss?

The manual comes not as proof, but as circumstancial evidence, that a criminal course of action is actually endorsed by certain political/military hierarchies in the USA, it is also helpful when looking for further evidence down the evolution of the events.

Regarding the depreciative label of "conspiracy theory" to ease up the dismissal of any interpretation of real facts let me underline that for a "conspiracy" only a secret collusion/arrangement between a plural number of parties is required and for a "theory" it only needs a cohesive hipothesis given a set of inconclusive information at the lack of later validation, the problem is when facts do validate the theory advanced.

Way above "nutcase" or "tin foil" allegories, a "conspiracy theory" certainly applies. How many have ultimately been proven in history so far?

[PELHAM 10]

Well gammadust(ooh bold for no reason is so funky), my point was the US could not hope to plan to persuade so many people to act as they have, it's nonsense, your only evidence is a 70 year old manual recently updated which does not mention Syria or any other country, it's purely general. The US forces are engaged in irregular warfar in Afghanistan, that is the meaning it confers. You see manuals like that are written for 2 purposes, for defence and offence. The US has had unconventional warfare (UW) conducted against it for 20 years now. If you look at how the manual has been used since it was written in WW2 it's obvious it has mostly been used for resisting UW.

Wrong again about friends of Syria aren't you? 10 seconds research would have told you that it was initiated by ex-French president Nicolas Sarkozy and not the US State Dept. as you said. 2nd facepalm for your theory lol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friends_of_Syria_Group

(scroll down and look at the members, they represent most of the world, nice try but it doesn't add up)

Let me guess you didn't concoct this yourself did you?:

http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50418&sid=500517f48357171636d2df0bb97a0677

This guff is written all over the 9/11 and other conspiracy websites, your version is nearly copied word for word from that Quack Lehmann.

As for the various theories put forward here about Libya most were completely wrong and whats laughable is that the same people who droned on in support of Gadaffi are making the same mistakes again. They are also choosing to ignore the success that Libya is starting to become.

China and Russia are simply prolonging this becuase they need a disaster. They didn't get one in North Africa and they are worried that the freedom fever will spread to their own back yards. They desperately need a democracy = disaster story to stop it happening. That is the only conspiracy occuring at the moment and it's very obvious. China and Russia want defence of their empires with Syrian blood, that is what is rather criminal and disgusting.

Latest reports are that thousands are leaving (20,000 into Lebanon today), the rebels have taken control of the border posts with Iraq, Damascus is seeing heavy fighting, Assad is rumored to have fled to the coast, the UN observers are getting ready to leave, Major General Robert Mood has announced his departure from Syria. It could all be over before the Russian task force gets there.

I guess Assad has a choice of exile or 'natural justice' now, the regime can't last much longer.

Edited July 19, 2012 by PELHAM

[gammadust 12]

Well gammadust(ooh bold for no reason is so funky), my point was the US could not hope to plan to persuade so many people to act as they have, it's nonsense, your only evidence is a 70 year old manual recently updated which does not mention Syria or any other country, it's purely general. The US forces are engaged in irregular warfar in Afghanistan, that is the meaning it confers. You see manuals like that are written for 2 purposes, for defence and offence. The US has had unconventional warfare (UW) conducted against it for 20 years now. If you look at how the manual has been used since it was written in WW2 it's obvious it has mostly been used for resisting UW.

Sorry to say the above (in emphasis) is just spin, the manual is quite explicit and unambiguous regarding the agent [uSSF] and respective targets [target governments] of such operations, from the document in question and citing:

Preface

Training Circular (TC) 18-01, Special Forces Unconventional Warfare, defines the current United States (U.S.) Army Special Forces (SF) concept of planning and conducting unconventional warfare (UW) operations. For the foreseeable future, U.S. forces will predominantly engage in irregular warfare (IW) operations.

(page 5)

(...)

Chapter 1 - Overview

The Commander, United States Special Operations Command (USSOCOM), defines UW as activities conducted to enable a resistance movement or insurgency to coerce, disrupt, or overthrow a government or occupying power by operating through or with an underground, auxiliary, and guerrilla force in a denied area.

(...)

INTRODUCTION TO UNCONVENTIONAL WARFARE

1-1. The intent of U.S. UW efforts is to exploit a hostile power’s political, military, economic, and psychological vulnerabilities by developing and sustaining resistance forces to accomplish U.S. strategic objectives. Historically, the military concept for he employment of UW was primarily in support of resistance movements during general-war scenarios. While this concept remains valid, the operational environment since the end of World War II has increasingly required U.S. forces to conduct UW in scenarios short of general war (limited war).

(page 6)

(...)

THE ROLE OF UNCONVENTIONAL WARFARE IN UNITED STATES NATIONAL STRATEGY

1-6. USG support to a resistance or insurgency can manifest in any of the following manners:

* Indirect support. In limited-war scenarios, overt U.S. support for a resistance movement is sometimes undesirable. In these cases, the USG may indirectly render support though a coalition partner or a third-country location. The USG normally limits indirect support to logistical aid and training. Limited war presents a much more restrictive environment that requires low-profile execution of all USG support operations.

(page 7)

There is much more if one actually takes the time to read it, but it's so hideous one is required a strong stomach.

I'll abstain to address the rest.

[PELHAM 10]

Well that's all very interesting but nothing to do with Syria, sorry not interested in pages from manuals or conspiracy theories copied from fringe websites. As I pointed out - that manual is used both ways, offensive and defensive. If you actually read the wiki page on it that is made perfectly clear.

[hellfire257 3]

Why does this sort of thing always devolve into a tin-foil hat wearing debate?

[PELHAM 10]

Why does this sort of thing always devolve into a tin-foil hat wearing debate?

Poor education, lack of scepticism, gullibility and others getting a kick out of fooling or manipulating others. You would not believe the number of otherwise intelligent people I meet who are convinced the moon landings are fake (don't start with me on that either, I'm an expert on on it and there is already a thread here with low orbit photos and other evidence taken last year that conclusively prove it).

It's also a political tool, the Russians, Chinese, North Koreans, Syrians and Iranians all have information ministries or outfits attached to their secret services who are actually paid to spend their time dreaming up some of these things, the Russians fund an entire news channel to do it - Russia Today. The Iranians are famous for their work on 9/11 and denying the holocaust. They also troll the internet, I was certain some of the idiots we get here would suddenly disappear with the end of Gadaffi, it will also be interesting to see who is no more after the end of Assad lol.

My fav CS at the moment is the Iranian one. They are suffering a drought and are trying to convince everyone that it's the Americans sabotaging their weather. Dumb Americans eh - have all that precise weather control technology and don't use it to end the equally severe drought that they have at home in the US! Forget science, forget la Nina and el Nino and temperature variances in the Pacific, forget the influence of the jet stream, lets fart out another conspiracy theory. That guff is direct from the Iranian Vice President, Hassan Mousavi, at a press conference.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2175110/Iran-VP-claims-countrys-drought-Wests-weather-war-Islamic-republic.html

Edited July 20, 2012 by PELHAM

[Sakowski 1]

My opinion as the topic says "What should we do if anything?" my answer is - Nothing, oh you might think I am a cold ass bastard but well, everytime we intervene somewhere the hole gets bigger, we (countries all over the world, I wont say names but there specially one) intervene into other country's business just for money and relations with other countries, we do not know the truth of which side is BLUFOR or OPFOR because these days even good guys can be bad guys acting like they want to get rid of evil and so on.

[oxmox 73]

Anyone has seen this video already, saw it the first time yesterday:

Original Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ha94Xz59dg

It is allegedly a suicide bomber auction in Saudi Arabia for Syria, they bid almost half a million $ for it. This is crazy....:confused:

@PELHAM;Gammadust

Overthrowing or manipulating other states in general or just in Syria ? In general you dont need to read a manual, just some history books, its not a secret. When it comes to Syria there were cables released and articles in major newspapers about the financial help, weapon delivieries since years. The conflict is not mainly about Syria itself, it is a religous conflict and to weaken the Iran Axis. And last but not least economical interests, in other words money plays a role aswell.

Edited July 20, 2012 by oxmox

[PELHAM 10]

Rofl obviously fake, filmed in Saudi Arabia you say? and not 1 full beard? Are the Wahabis shaving these days? Also look closely at the details, the leg is fake, it's the wrong colour and there is very little damage to the tractor (a suicide tractor in a town? rofl). All those buildings were damaged and the steering wheel and seat is still on the tractor? The paint isn't even burned or scuffed. The rent-a-crowd even start singing about Assad on que from off camerra. Thanks you just made my weekend, I'll be laughing about this till Monday. I guess the boys at the Syrian Ministry of Information are doing their best under difficult circumstances.

My favourite quote from the video written by sultancomedy obviously the subtitles aren't correct either:

You dumb fuck clearly you don't understand Arabic, or what's going on in this video. They are rising money some that goes to the father who lost his son in Syria by the regime. And the rest is going to be sent to Syria to help aid. His son Khaled Salah was already killed by the Syrian regime. There is nothing about suicide bombing here. The word sacrifice was not even what he kept saying, he said "leg" which means aid. Don't post shit without understanding, u don't even know the language.

Edited July 20, 2012 by PELHAM

[oxmox 73]

Of course it can be a fake even it is shown aswell on RT when I looked further, aswell the other videos shown in this thread, in the news or from other sources. Iam filming bymyself and with certain cams it is diffucult to get the correct skin color OOC, especially with some cheap mobile phones. Its always strange that they show aswell in the news videos with such low resolution and this in a time where we have High Definition video. Even a cheap GoPro or a good mobile should deliver much better footage. The faces in the footage are actually blurred in post ..actually some have a beart on the images, I see at least 5 people. I did exchange the video with the RT release.

Edited July 20, 2012 by oxmox

[PELHAM 10]

Good old RT, never afraid to report utter bollocks while keeping a straight face lol, don't know how they keep it up. Well they don't have to do any real work, they just make it up and pull odds n end off conspiracy websites and get paid for it by the state so I suppose it's easy. All their material is crap taken off the web and edited and dressed up to look official.

The Suicide bomber that targeted the security meeting the other day was actually one of the Syrian Cabinet bodyguards but the Russians don't want to talk about that because there is no revolt from within, according to the official script. All the fighters and bombers are supposed to be foreigners, but I guess the Syrians couldn't come up with a good excuse to how one waltzed into a high security building so just admitted the truth.

RE the leg - it's not the skin colour, it's the colour of the tissue. Freshly chopped and burned human flesh is not that colour, it's obviously not real and is some sort of prop. According to that evidence the suicide bomber must have been a tiny Stay Puft marshmallow man escaped from the set of ghost busters. But apart from that the tractor with 1 flat tyre, pristine paintwork and no other visible damage should have been a huge clue to anyone with half a brain that something is wrong there.

Edited July 20, 2012 by PELHAM

[oxmox 73]

Look I dont know nothing and you dont know nothing, so dont let us too much into assumptions. The resolution for my eye is too low to judge here for more details. There will be and were always manipulated footage around, on foreign or own broadcast. The problem in general is, aswell for our western press, to get proove about incomming footage especially if records were made private. When researching or looking for news its always good to try to get a neutral point of view and to watch or listen to things from different sources, doesnt mean you have to take everything seriously. You are one of the discussant here who actually did post several footage, and nobody complained...the video isnt that important anyway to start a bigger dicussion about it.

Edited July 20, 2012 by oxmox

[PELHAM 10]

Well it's obvious what your level of knowledge is, please don't presume the same about me. Ever seen a bombing 1st hand? I was in the next street from this Woolworths one in 1977:

http://www.bsap.org/bsapgallery/main.php?g2_itemId=227

Your video is very obviously fake, anyone that has seen one or has simply looked at photos for comparison would know the very obvious differences.

[oxmox 73]

Iam not going into such a discussion since I cant judge this video. But aside the bombing shown in South Africa from 1977, suicide bombings happened where the blasting power not neccesarily collapse or destroy whole buildings.

This is an interesting image series of a suicide bomber in Sri Lanka, really amazing and luck for the photographer and crowd around. (no gruesome images shown). The oil minister, shown on the images with a tie survived aswell people close to him, around ten people died in this incident.

You have to click through the images:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/4973425/Suicide-bomb-blast-in-Sri-Lanka-caught-on-camera.html?image=1

By the way, historical the suicide bombing has its roots in Ceylon actually and not like some may assume in muslim/arabic countries.

Edited July 20, 2012 by oxmox

[PELHAM 10]

Errr the photos are from Zimbabwe, what a time it was! Your video shows widespread damage to buildings supposedly around a relatively undamaged tractor where the suicide bomber was supposed to be sitting. It doesn't add up - think it through slowly and carefully. Look at how much damage is done to the buildings and think about how much explosive that would take. The origin is supposed to be the tractor, don't you think it should be on fire or at least missing some parts? It has one flat tyre and a slightly bent steering wheel. All the bodywork and the toolbox behind the driver's seat is undamaged. It's obviously faked.

All I can say is thank you for posting a video that illustrates everything I said on the previous page about RT is true lol.