Syria - What should we do if anything?

[oxmox 73]

@oxmox

The comments are not just aimed at you oxmox - spooky and gamma have also chosen to ignore the witness statements rofl. So you agree with your own link that the Shabiha are responsible for the Houla massacre with Syrian army support as stated by the witnesses? Or are you still not reading that part? (You actually posted 3 links - so I'll assume the 2 you say you read were the other 2?)

Tremseh was not an error, the UN were quite open about what they found, the army raided homes belonging to defectors and rebels, causing the FSA to try to defend the town later in the day. The army then used either 50-100 artillery shells or rockets to bombard the town. Most of the dead were males of fighting age, but under the terms of the agreed peace plan the Syrian Army is not supposed to be doing that is it?

The UN were delayed for 48hrs by the army before they could enter Tremseh and local people could not talk freely because of the Army presence during the UN investigation.

The 2 links are from Spiegel, one is in english the other one in german and the 3rd link is the translation of it. It could be the Shabiha due to the latest eyewitnesses, but there are other sources in the serious press who did offer a different view, so the case is still unclear but this latest Spiegel report contributes.

Tremesh had different reports in the media which I followed before the UN observation. The UN observation did bring actually a bit more light into the situation. Before it was talked about a mass murdering killing civilians and refugees, the UN observation disproved it and their report was about the fact that actually fights did happen between armed forces, but no proove for a massacre. I did read in the news that actually a self provoked battle was lost by the rebels and they tried to sell it as a massacre, said UN obeserver.

..but under the terms of the agreed peace plan the Syrian Army is not supposed to be doing that is it?

Both sides in this conflict didnt satisfy the regulations and/or canceled the peace plan.

The biggest trap in this conflict as a reader is to take side on any of these parties taking part in this conflict. There is no good or bad, there are just interest groups and civilians suffer from it.

Edited July 24, 2012 by oxmox

[PELHAM 10]

Syrian Airforce attacks Aleppo

A BBC journalist on the scene reports jets and helicopters attacking the city. There are some pictures of Mi-8 helicopters doing the usual clumsy attack run with salvos of unguided rockets. The BBC news here had footage of a low flying L-39 that pitches down then up as if attacking (hopefully not filmed in Arma2 vision!), but other aircraft are reported to be breaking the sound barrier over the city.

The Syrian air force has L-39ZO / ZA types - you can see them parked on the ramp at the Air Base near Aleppo here 36°11′15″N 37°34′56″E

Mig-23's and Mi-8's here: 36°10′51″N 37°13′28″E

Aleppo is a city of 2 million, using unguided weapons such as rockets, cannon fire and iron bombs in such a densely populated area is rather reckless.

---------- Post added at 01:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:08 AM ----------

both sides in this conflict didnt satisfy the regulations and/or canceled the peace plan.

The biggest trap in this conflict as a reader is to take side on any of these parties taking part in this conflict. There is no good or bad, there are just interest groups and civilians suffer from it.

I think the biggest trap is to ignore the overwhelming evidence. The chronology of the peace plan fiasco is clear,

-Assad announces peace plan ceasefire, 14th April.

-14th April to mid May, the Syrian army uses tanks and snipers to force people off the streets and continues to fire artillery into various cities. Water and electricity were shut off in the cities of Daraa and Homs, and the army began confiscating flour and food. The Syrian army entered the cities of Baniyas, Hama, Homs, Talkalakh, Latakia, the Al-Midan and Douma districts of Damascus.

- May 25th we have the Houla Massacre by the Shabiha supported by the army and the FSA goes on the offensive.

Timeline of the 2011–2012 Syrian uprising (January–April 2012)

Timeline of the 2011–2012 Syrian uprising (from May 2012)

Edited July 25, 2012 by PELHAM

[oxmox 73]

Yeah, using air force in bigger towns will lead often to collateral damage like we know from previous conflicts in other regions. It is reckless for sure.

Pelham, the peace plan with cease fire had its problems since day one. Of course it is true that Syria did violate the peace plan. Iam not ignoring the points you write about, they are a part of the happening. But throughout the whole April/early May both, the FSA and Syria did blame each other to break the cease fire and actually did violate it. Already in January without Annan, self proclaimed cease fire were violated.

9th April: Syria with a last-minute demand with written guarantees and promise from foreign countries not to fund them, rejected by the rebels.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17655425

12th April: both sides reporting violations of the cease fire agreement with examples of the incidents

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17683705

17th April: Syrian Troops bombard Homs and other rebel areas & each side accuses the other of breaking cease fire

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17741727

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/18/world/middleeast/each-side-accuses-the-other-of-violating-syrias-cease-fire.html

1st May: Peacekeeping head says both sides of conflict have broken agreement

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/01/syria-ceasefire-violated-un-chief

2nd May: Deadliest ceae fire day for Syria troops

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/deadliest-ceasefire-day-for-syria-troops/story-e6frfku0-1226345330243

31st May: Syrian rebels urge Annan to declare end of ceasefire

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2012/may/31/syria-bashar-al-assad

4th June: Free Syrian Army rebels abandon Annan ceasefire

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18325949

28th June: Syrian opposition rejects Annan plan if Assad stays

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/06/28/uk-syria-crisis-transition-idUKBRE85R0D920120628

In the meanwhile, this doesnt look like a chance for peace in every way as far as Assad stays in power. But since the FSA allegedly follows no political aim but only exist to remove the Assad regime...sure, otherwise for what a revolution to overthrow a regime.

The question is who can replace the regime, even the rebels are quarrelled. And what will happen if the rebels gets into power, especially with the different religious groups of civilians.

Edited July 25, 2012 by oxmox

[PELHAM 10]

Flawed logic oxmox, many of your links show greater violations from the Syrian Army which never observed the ceasefire. Your 1st link ends with a description of the Syrian army shooting into a Turkish refugee camp. Tunisia, Libya and Egypt seem to be doing ok without their dictators. Burma moved from military dictatorship to democracy in an orderly manner, why couldn't Assad do that?

Best video I could find of the jets attacking Aleppo - a man is filming destruction in the city when an L-39 makes 2 strafing runs - you can hear the clear sound of an aircraft cannon, jet and cannon at 0:35 and 2nd run at 2:16

cOrcjVdncos

clearer view - cannon at lower rpm setting on this run:

nLqsC4-9G7g

Edited July 25, 2012 by PELHAM

[spooky lynx 73]

Libya? With constant clashes between different militias and destroyed economy and infrastructure? Oh yeah, it's really good!

[PELHAM 10]

Libya? With constant clashes between different militias and destroyed economy and infrastructure? Oh yeah, it's really good!

Keep up Spooky - they had free and fair elections this month for the 1st time, oil production is back to pre-uprising levels and the IMF expects the economy to double this year. Not only that - here is a video from last year 6000 Syrians flee to Libya where they find life hard but preferable compred to Syria itself rofl, 1000's more have arrived since December and Libya is supplying aid to refugee camps in Jordan and Turkey:

bfDfpovioWQ

Edited July 25, 2012 by PELHAM

[spooky lynx 73]

Keep up Spooky - they had free and fair elections this month for the 1st time, oil production is back to pre-uprising levels and the IMF expects the economy to double this year. Not only that - here is a video from last year 6000 Syrians flee to Libya where they find life hard but preferable compred to Syria itself rofl:

bfDfpovioWQ

Great, free and fair (note, in some opinion) elections will feed all the starving, heal the wounded and rebuild all which was destroyed... Oil production is back, but who will receive the income from it? And will all the social payments based on oil that were during Qaddafi's rule be brought back? IMF expects the economy to double. It doesn't mean it will have any growth indeed.

[oxmox 73]

Flawed logic oxmox, many of your links show greater violations from the Syrian Army which never observed the ceasefire. Your 1st link ends with a description of the Syrian army shooting into a Turkish refugee camp. Tunisia, Libya and Egypt seem to be doing ok without their dictators. Burma moved from military dictatorship to democracy in an orderly manner, why couldn't Assad do that?

Best video I could find of the jets attacking Aleppo - a man is filming destruction in the city when an L-39 makes 2 strafing runs - you can hear the clear sound of an aircraft cannon, jet and cannon at 0:35 and 2nd run at 2:16

These are reports from news and show that the sides did accuse each other from breaking cease fire. And if you did follow more closely you know that almost no western press could report from Syria directly, many of the infos did come from activist organisations. Do you want to compare precisely every incident, Iam not looking for this and you wont find it. It shows that the peace plan had big problems already from the beginning. Why should revolutionary look for peace if they want to have a regime change and fighting with armed forces against it. You have to ask yourself why the Assad Regime doesnt change like in Burma, which opposition should take power in Syria in your opinion and what about the religious conflict with so many different groups ?

The situation is complex if you take the Iran-Axis into account, parts of the arab nations and their disputes with this region and Russia plays a role aswell.

Everyone in the forum here wants the same, a reasonable solution and not an enlarged conflict with more disasters.

The future of Assad itself is vague. When the opposition wins and he gets into their hands, he will be murdered. When he turns to the UN he will sentenced for lifetime in Den Haag. Therefore he will probably fight until the end. Similarities with Gaddafi ?

Edited July 25, 2012 by oxmox

[spooky lynx 73]

When he turns to the UN he will sentenced for lifetime in Den Haag.

Or die from heart attack in jail.

[PELHAM 10]

If you want to convince anyone of anythign oxmox, you have to use a bit of logic. We heard the same old tired arguments during Gadaffi's downfall and they sound just as hollow now as they did then.

And if you did follow more closely you know that almost no western press could report from Syria directly,

And there it is......everyone knows that. If Assad was telling the truth why has he made it impossible for the press to report on the war, deliberately killing and injuring journalists along with everyone else and restricting their movements? All dictators do that, they don't want any witnesses.

The future of Assad is exhile or death, it's only a matter of time. He is prepared to see the entire country and all it's people destroyed because they are all his personal posessions. That is the mindset of the selfish spoiled child that he is. The inner circle are all defecting and even life long senior Baathists such as Nawaf al-Fares said, "turn your guns on the criminals, President Bashar al-Assad's government". When al-Fares defected the Syrian governement's secondary charge against him was "leaving the Embassy without permission". Even Syria's Ambassadors are under house arrest lol.

[oxmox 73]

You are talking the second time about a flawed logic, I would like to know which of the questions and informations from news releases doesnt fit in your perceptions.

I did not write about Gadaffi, this was and is a different conflict except the possible similarities in decisions for the ruler himself. So I cant follow you here when you write about old tired and hallow arguements.

[slatts 1978]

It's funny how this thread has mimicked real life politics over Syria. All the bickering has lead to nothing whatsoever.

310 posts and what have you guys achieved?

[ProfTournesol 956]

It's funny how this thread has mimicked real life politics over Syria. All the bickering has lead to nothing whatsoever.

310 posts and what have you guys achieved?

Hehe, you grab your blue helmet ?

[PELHAM 10]

Basically nearly everything you post is flawed logic, to decide how to apportion blame or guilt you have to look at the whole problem, then a+b+c=d. You have simply decided that blame lies equally on the 2 sides based on the most recent events. You have to go back to March 2011 and look at what occurred at each stage till now.

This conflict started in January 2011 with peaceful protests calling for for political reforms and the reinstatement of civil rights, as well as for an end to the emergency law that has been in place since 1962. As protests grew across Syria the use of live rounds to disperse protesters became common until it was occuring daily in April. Any group of civilians was fired on including those attending weddings and funerals.

If you are looking for a turning point when the situation became irretrievable - it's the siege of Daraa where the government used tanks, machine guns, snipers and helicopters against the general population for the first time since the 80's. 50 – 220 were killed,

600 arrested, 81 soldiers were executed for refusing to fire on civilians. 233 members of the Baath party, amongst them parliament members, resigned over the violence against protesters and civilians. The military increased their presence over the following days. Snipers were positioned on buildings and fired at anyone not female. Tanks began firing indiscriminately on houses, and also destroyed the local mosque. The FSA began it's armed resistance soon after.

The siege of Daraa was the 1st in a series of sieges against most of the minor cities in the country to put down protests in which thousands have died.

Peace plans:

Arab League Peace Plan

On 3 November 2011, the Syrian government accepted an Arab League peace plan to halt its crackdown on protesters. The following day tanks opened fire on Homs in a barrage that would last 4 days. On the 12th Nov 2011 the Arab League announced it would suspend Syria's membership over the violent crackdown and promised to implement sanctions.

UN peace plan

On 4 April 2012, Annan told the U.N. Security Council that Syrian President Bashar al-Assad had given assurances he would “immediately†start pulling back his forces and complete a military withdrawal from urban areas by 10 April. What in fact happened was:

-4 April - 101 civilians were reported killed by the Syrian army, primarily in the bombardment of Homs and sieges in the Idlib province.

-5 April - 70 civilians were killed across Syria by the Syrian army, primarily in Homs and Idlib.

-6 April - Thousands of people fled the Aleppo province to Turkey, as 51 civilians were killed, primarily in the Syrian army's bombardment of Homs. Reports of 100 killed in Taftanaz, Idlib, in a reported massacre by the Syrian army. Refugees fleeing from Taftanaz to Turkey reported mass graves and intentional burning of homes by the Syrian army.

-7 April - By mid-day, over 150 people were reported killed, primarily in the artillery shelling in Homs, but also over 50 dead when the Syrian army stormed rural villages in Hama.

-8 April - The LCC reported 45 civilians killed by the Syrian army, primarily in Homs and Idlib.

Based on that it's Assad who painted himself into a corner with blood just like Gadaffi did. He has agreed to 2 separate peace plans and withdrawn from them within hours over minor technicalities. It was Assad that launched attacks on protestors with little provocation and he has escalated the violent reprisals ever since. Accusing the FSA of violating cease fires is rather absurd when you look at the level of violence coming the other way.

Some satellite photos you might enjoy:

http://www.humanrights.gov/2012/03/05/situation-in-syria-more-images/

---------- Post added at 01:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:14 PM ----------

It's funny how this thread has mimicked real life politics over Syria. All the bickering has lead to nothing whatsoever.

310 posts and what have you guys achieved?

I know more about Syria than I ever thought I would, informed debate whatever the outcome, educates and broadens the mind and that is never a bad thing. I am a concerned party as much of the middle eastern food I enjoy is manufactured near Aleppo and there is a huge fucking hole on the shelf of my local deli where authentic delicacies should reside! This is a crisis!

Also it is important to support oppressed people. Those of us who have suffered under dictators and seen the murder and results of their actions find it difficult to keep quiet.

Edited July 26, 2012 by PELHAM

[slatts 1978]

Hehe, you grab your blue helmet ?

Doubt we will any time soon.

@pelham, you missed my point completely. I never said we shouldn't, Ireland knows all about being repressed and seeing senseless murder.

My whole point was that this thread is like the U.N bickering over what to do, you "debating" (I've seen more fights then debates here) with another guy isn't leading to a solution, and its the same at the U.N.

[PELHAM 10]

Doubt we will any time soon.

@pelham, you missed my point completely. I never said we shouldn't, Ireland knows all about being repressed and seeing senseless murder.

My whole point was that this thread is like the U.N bickering over what to do, you "debating" (I've seen more fights then debates here) with another guy isn't leading to a solution, and its the same at the U.N.

Well what should we do then Mr. Blue Helmet? Please outline a forum peace plan, if it's resonable I'm sure all parties will agree. Can I point out that I have never initiated any arguments, I have simply defended the reputation of people that have faced tanks and artillery on a daily bases for over a year now. It's rather shocking when one speaks up for freedom and democracy and gets criticised for it. If others were to speak up perhaps I would not need to so often.

Sometimes I think people avoid supporting freedom in the middle east because they are muslims, their suffering can be ignored because of our problems in Iraq and Afghanistan. Relating this to my own small corner of Southern Africa what some are essentially saying here is Apartheid is not so bad because it keeps whites and the various black tribes apart and stops ethnic violence. If you get rid of apartheid it will only lead to trouble, PW Botha despite being a nutcase is keeping the peace and a stable economy and is easy to work with. SA was a bizarre artificial system that lasted too long and so is Syria.

Edited July 26, 2012 by PELHAM

[ProfTournesol 956]

Doubt we will any time soon.

In fact, i meant in this very topic, not in RL ;)

[spooky lynx 73]

I know more about Syria than I ever thought I would, informed debate whatever the outcome, educates and broadens the mind and that is never a bad thing.

Do you have any Arab relatives living there or in some neighboring country? I do. So who is more informed?

Please outline a forum peace plan, if it's resonable I'm sure all parties will agree.

At first - do not support any side of the civil conflict. If so-called opposition is strong enough - it will reach its goal without any foreign help.

[PELHAM 10]

Do you have any Arab relatives living there or in some neighboring country? I do. So who is more informed?

At first - do not support any side of the civil conflict. If so-called opposition is strong enough - it will reach its goal without any foreign help.

That isn't how the world works Spooky, nearly everyone (apart from 3) has signed the United Nations Charter and debating human rights and injustice is what it's for. This strange Putinesque view that goes contrary to the initiator of all modern international law is rather bizarre - have a quick perusal:

United Nations Charter

-to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small, and

-to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained, and

-to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

Most dictatorships cling to this clause that was originally inserted at the insistance of Stalin:

Article 2

Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter Vll.

The large numbers of refugees leaving Syria and affecting the surrounding nations invalidates this and they (Arab League) brought the original complaint to the UN. Russia is vetoing everything relating to chapter VII as it is no longer interested in the UN core values and does not want an international solution. Under the charter, the Syrian Problem should be a straight forward UN peace keeping matter. Why are Russia and China delaying?

Edited July 26, 2012 by PELHAM

[slatts 1978]

Well what should we do then Mr. Blue Helmet? Please outline a forum peace plan, if it's resonable I'm sure all parties will agree. Can I point out that I have never initiated any arguments, I have simply defended the reputation of people that have faced tanks and artillery on a daily bases for over a year now. It's rather shocking when one speaks up for freedom and democracy and gets criticised for it. If others were to speak up perhaps I would not need to so often.

Sometimes I think people avoid supporting freedom in the middle east because they are muslims, their suffering can be ignored because of our problems in Iraq and Afghanistan. Relating this to my own small corner of Southern Africa what some are essentially saying here is Apartheid is not so bad because it keeps whites and the various black tribes apart and stops ethnic violence. If you get rid of apartheid it will only lead to trouble, PW Botha despite being a nutcase is keeping the peace and a stable economy and is easy to work with. SA was a bizarre artificial system that lasted too long and so is Syria.

You know I never said you were wrong ;) You want the Syrians suffering to end, I would like to see it too. You are trying to outline what needs to be done etc. to achieve this (I can read you know) But there are some who will disagree with you are sometimes descending it a squabble. And that my good sir, is why I said what I said ;)

@Prof

gimme a sec...you'll like this :D EDIT: There we are :D

[gammadust 12]

Unless some of us here have some kind of leverage on the ground, which is unlikely, to expect "a solution" to come out of a game developer forum discussion is not realistic. Considering the original "Syria - What should we do if anything?" of this OP, the only thing which i consider useful is indeed to keep an informed view and, at most, tentatively balanced. In my view that relies before anything in estabilishing the relevant facts, specially those which are undisputed by whichever sides involved on the ground.

Give a small boy a hammer, and he will find that everything he encounters needs pounding.

And then we wonder howcome is hard for those involved in arriving to a "solution".

Make no mistake, the most worrysome development of events facing syrian people, undoubtedly the interest which should be held above any others, is the spiraling towards external military intervention, regardless of the rationale behind it, since this will constitute beyond any doubt an even greater aggression and violation of human rights.

[oxmox 73]

Basically nearly everything you post is flawed logic, to decide how to apportion blame or guilt you have to look at the whole problem, then a+b+c=d. You have simply decided that blame lies equally on the 2 sides based on the most recent events. You have to go back to March 2011 and look at what occurred at each stage till now.

This conflict started in January 2011 with peaceful protests calling for for political reforms and the reinstatement of civil rights, as well as for an end to the emergency law that has been in place since 1962. As protests grew across Syria the use of live rounds to disperse protesters became common until it was occuring daily in April. Any group of civilians was fired on including those attending weddings and funerals.

If you are looking for a turning point when the situation became irretrievable - it's the siege of Daraa where the government used tanks, machine guns, snipers and helicopters against the general population for the first time since the 80's. 50 – 220 were killed,

600 arrested, 81 soldiers were executed for refusing to fire on civilians. 233 members of the Baath party, amongst them parliament members, resigned over the violence against protesters and civilians. The military increased their presence over the following days. Snipers were positioned on buildings and fired at anyone not female. Tanks began firing indiscriminately on houses, and also destroyed the local mosque. The FSA began it's armed resistance soon after.

The siege of Daraa was the 1st in a series of sieges against most of the minor cities in the country to put down protests in which thousands have died.

Peace plans:

Arab League Peace Plan

On 3 November 2011, the Syrian government accepted an Arab League peace plan to halt its crackdown on protesters. The following day tanks opened fire on Homs in a barrage that would last 4 days. On the 12th Nov 2011 the Arab League announced it would suspend Syria's membership over the violent crackdown and promised to implement sanctions.

UN peace plan

On 4 April 2012, Annan told the U.N. Security Council that Syrian President Bashar al-Assad had given assurances he would “immediately†start pulling back his forces and complete a military withdrawal from urban areas by 10 April. What in fact happened was:

-4 April - 101 civilians were reported killed by the Syrian army, primarily in the bombardment of Homs and sieges in the Idlib province.

-5 April - 70 civilians were killed across Syria by the Syrian army, primarily in Homs and Idlib.

-6 April - Thousands of people fled the Aleppo province to Turkey, as 51 civilians were killed, primarily in the Syrian army's bombardment of Homs. Reports of 100 killed in Taftanaz, Idlib, in a reported massacre by the Syrian army. Refugees fleeing from Taftanaz to Turkey reported mass graves and intentional burning of homes by the Syrian army.

-7 April - By mid-day, over 150 people were reported killed, primarily in the artillery shelling in Homs, but also over 50 dead when the Syrian army stormed rural villages in Hama.

-8 April - The LCC reported 45 civilians killed by the Syrian army, primarily in Homs and Idlib.

Based on that it's Assad who painted himself into a corner with blood just like Gadaffi did. He has agreed to 2 separate peace plans and withdrawn from them within hours over minor technicalities. It was Assad that launched attacks on protestors with little provocation and he has escalated the violent reprisals ever since. Accusing the FSA of violating cease fires is rather absurd when you look at the level of violence coming the other way.

Some satellite photos you might enjoy:

http://www.humanrights.gov/2012/03/05/situation-in-syria-more-images/

---------- Post added at 01:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:14 PM ----------

First of all you mentioned the Anan Peace Plan and you posted only parts of the issues, which did start on the 10th of April and official on the 14th. I did suggest and posted the cease fire problems, the violation and accusation of both sides. I mentioned aswell that there were cease fire agreements before the Annan plan, so of course the story did start already in 2011 but this was not the discussion about, we did discuss about a certain time range only.

You are starting now to write about the happenings from start but you dont expand on the message I wrote before, which were mostly questions. You dont explain therefore the allegedly flawed logic which are actually informations from the news and experts, which you call hallow. You compare even the conflict with Burma or Libya. If I would try to speak like you do sometimes, I should probably add a lol or laughing over the weekend.

Actually if you want to tell me that all my postings have flaw logic, than you should reconsider your own contributions since they are not always great either. I expected actually a better answer, that you would show an interest of my own content. You call information absurd which are from UN observer and news, sorry this can be of course your own believes like everyone of us have. The Media isnt always correct and rests on unsound footing in this conflict, remember only the reports about the activist organisation who provides most media with datas, which is actually lead by a snack bar inholder. Its alright, but the news from serious press are just the basic information pool we can get for a discussion and to write down here to collect more informations.

Edited July 26, 2012 by oxmox

[PELHAM 10]

Give a small boy a hammer, and he will find that everything he encounters needs pounding.

Best analogy of Assad Senior and Junior to date. Homs has been shelled every day for 8 months, 23 days now, that is longer than the entire Libyan uprising. I'm not sure the population would share your convictions. There are limits to what you can expect people to endure before it is logical for them to expect the right to defend themselves or ask someone else to do it for them.

@ oxmox The simple logic is that under the terms of the peace plans the Syrian Army are not supposed to be in urban areas. If they had withdrawn, which would have taken 48hrs at most, the FSA would not have anything to shoot at. Accusing people of violating a cease fire when artillery shells are smashing their houses to pieces and family members are being dragged out of their houses by the security forces does not make much sense.

Regarding evidence - I provided you with this link showing dozens of satellite photos so you would not have to rely on media or FSA videos:

http://www.humanrights.gov/2012/03/05/situation-in-syria-more-images/

Edited July 26, 2012 by PELHAM

[batto 17]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=218_1343091168

Aleppo offensive is in progress. Go Syria! Free yourself of this Fake Syrian Army insect.

[PELHAM 10]

Highly dubious video there batto, it's just a kid posing with his dad's gun. It's the standard jihadist black flag and isn't the Al-Qaeda flag at all - the writing at the top is the Shahada "There is no god but God, Muhammad is the messenger of God." The al-Qaeda design has a full moon on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda

Al-Nusra is an extremist organisation formed in Dec 2011 and has nothing to do with the FSA, they happen to be fighting a common enemy. The various extremist leaders have criticised the FSA for not fighting under the banner of Sharia and for seeking to introduce western democracy and freedoms. Two different things. Al-Nusra damage the reputations of the official oposition with their thuggish and violent acts and are not widely supported.

Edited July 27, 2012 by PELHAM