Syria - What should we do if anything?

[spooky lynx 73]

Well said, the ordinary people of Syria will only fully appreciate Democracy after an extended period of oppression, torture and death. It is the only process that will make them mentally ready and able to accept the responsibility. I personally don't think they will be ready for freedom for at least another 150 years.

The ordinary people of Syria feel pretty good about killing everybody outside their clan or religious group during the struggle for power. So do ordinary people of Libya, Afghanistan and Iraq. If they have enough force - they will promote their own clan no matter of any freedom of speech or other democratic stuff. Arabs are similar to Caucasians in this way, and I live nearby the latter (and have both Caucasian and Arabian relatives BTW). So I know what I'm talking about. Arabs still have mostly clan-based relations, Europeans don't. We tried to bring European-kind relations on Caucasus, Middle Asia and Afghanistan. It was only partly successful until the fall of USSR and vanishing of the system that forced these people to live like Europeans. After 1991 all I see there is rebirth of clan-based relations, medieval traditions etc. Emirs and shaikhs can wear European suits but they won't become more democratic after putting it on.

[batto 17]

I think those reporters visiting poor freedom fighters in Syria should bring some Muhammad caricatures to show them what kind of democracy we wanted for them (= society with freedom of expression). I wonder how many of them would return alive. Now when will we try to bring democracy to China? Oh wait...

[spooky lynx 73]

There are lots of places to bring democracy. Just look at Persian Gulf absolute monarchies.

[gammadust 12]

The White Man’s Burden: The United States and The Philippine Islands

Take up the White Man's burden--

Send forth the best ye breed--

Go bind your sons to exile

To serve your captives' need;

To wait in heavy harness,

On fluttered folk and wild--

Your new-caught, sullen peoples,

Half-devil and half-child.

Take up the White Man's burden--

In patience to abide,

To veil the threat of terror

And check the show of pride;

By open speech and simple,

An hundred times made plain

To seek another's profit,

And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden--

The savage wars of peace--

Fill full the mouth of Famine

And bid the sickness cease;

And when your goal is nearest

The end for others sought,

Watch sloth and heathen Folly

Bring all your hopes to nought.

Take up the White Man's burden--

No tawdry rule of kings,

But toil of serf and sweeper--

The tale of common things.

The ports ye shall not enter,

The roads ye shall not tread,

Go mark them with your living,

And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's burden--

And reap his old reward:

The blame of those ye better,

The hate of those ye guard--

The cry of hosts ye humour

(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--

"Why brought he us from bondage,

Our loved Egyptian night?"

Take up the White Man's burden--

Ye dare not stoop to less--

Nor call too loud on Freedom

To cloke your weariness;

By all ye cry or whisper,

By all ye leave or do,

The silent, sullen peoples

Shall weigh your gods and you.

Take up the White Man's burden--

Have done with childish days--

The lightly proferred laurel,

The easy, ungrudged praise.

Comes now, to search your manhood

Through all the thankless years

Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,

The judgment of your peers!

Rudyard Kipling

Edited July 6, 2012 by gammadust
full version

[ProfTournesol 956]

At first please quote my words about my support of Putin and especially Kadyrov.

Yep, you're right, i didn't correctly remember what you said here, you were just denying our right to judge what happens (or happened) in Russia or USSR. Or anywhere outside of European boundaries.

[PELHAM 10]

The ordinary people of Syria feel pretty good about killing everybody outside their clan or religious group during the struggle for power. So do ordinary people of Libya, Afghanistan and Iraq. If they have enough force - they will promote their own clan no matter of any freedom of speech or other democratic stuff. Arabs are similar to Caucasians in this way, and I live nearby the latter (and have both Caucasian and Arabian relatives BTW). So I know what I'm talking about. Arabs still have mostly clan-based relations, Europeans don't. We tried to bring European-kind relations on Caucasus, Middle Asia and Afghanistan. It was only partly successful until the fall of USSR and vanishing of the system that forced these people to live like Europeans. After 1991 all I see there is rebirth of clan-based relations, medieval traditions etc. Emirs and shaikhs can wear European suits but they won't become more democratic after putting it on.

Well said, thank you for that holistic view that is not narrow minded at all. Yes the USSR set a very good example by forcing these people to live like 'Europeans', if only they had learned from that democratic example.

---------- Post added at 05:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:32 PM ----------

There are lots of places to bring democracy. Just look at Persian Gulf absolute monarchies.

Quite right, can't understand why Syria has to be next just because it has the highest death rate from non-natural causes. Which of course, is no one else's business.

Edited July 6, 2012 by PELHAM

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Exactly. Why is it so important to bring democracy to Sunnis? Do these people believe in freedom of speech and freedom of religion? I don't think so. It's not really kind of people I sympathize with.

Sunni, Shi'ite - it is all irrelevant in the 21st century. They haven't progressed beyond the middle ages, haven't discovered the industrial age, yet they deal with us in oil trade, ignorantly selling their resources for marbles.

Freedom of Speech... Liberty... A Chance to Pursuit your own Happiness - is this not worth shedding blood for? Would you rather stand idly by while the false kings and dictators sit over their herds of human cattle? If we don't make religious persecution, superstition and irrational intolerance history on this planet, it will destroy our own Civilisation, as well as the rest of the savages.

If you don't like the idealistic motive I've mentioned, then you're free to assume that we're in Syria, and soon Iran, because of oil. :)

---------- Post added at 19:28 ---------- Previous post was at 19:21 ----------

So don't disrupt dictatorship if it helps to hold stable secular country. Things can turn worse without dictatorship in some regions. Sad but true.

That's why you support Putin and Kadyrov, and hate democracy ?

Due to impact of recent events, people of Russian Federation genuinely believe that a stable dictatorship is better than any reform in a rotten society, which is to say they'd rather drone to work daily, coming past the portraits on the streets of their respective "leaders" in a stable stagnation, than to find the dignity to show how they truly feel.

This is very relevant to any multi-ethnic society with dictatorial rule, otherwise you have partitioning of the state into separate independent Republics - I hope, at the very least, to see Kurdistan formed out of the ruins of Syria, eastern Turkey, Iran and parts of Iraq.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/Kurdish-inhabited_area_by_CIA_(1992).jpg

Thankfully, Turkey will cede territory for a promise to seriously review their application to the European Union, that is, of course, after they apologise and go through all the necessary reparations for the genocide of Armenians in WW I. :)

Edited July 6, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[oxmox 73]

5.4 million people did die and people are still dying in the Congo conflict since the end of the 90ies, Iam sure our world is full of idealism and the high amount of military budgets is only spend on idealistic motives. :p

Did you actually think about why other regions in our world didnt progress and still dont advance that fast ? Democracy has to evolve from itself aswell and not be spread like a religion in earlier times with shedding of blood by foreign powers. Of course revolutions are not just made by idealistic facebook members, you need thugs and trickster. I think it is ignorant to believe that you can just import democracy like a product or to put it just over without considering other issues, that would be naive and we have good examples in the last ten years about that.

Edited July 7, 2012 by oxmox

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I think it is ignorant to believe that you can just import democracy like a product or to put it just over without considering other issues, that would be naive and we have good examples in the last ten years about that.

That would be indeed naive, this is why nobody is exporting universal suffrage as the basis for the Human Revolution in these countries: you first need a healthy civil war to eliminate the most rotten parts of society, then the survivors take over with a fire in the their Minds, and the wheel of progress, which had been grind to a halt by a superstitious society, that bases its very life on a single allegorical book, the wheel of progress can finally continue on, once the "sacred" dogma becomes irrelevant to the next generation. :)

[PELHAM 10]

5.4 million people did die and people are still dying in the Congo conflict since the end of the 90ies, Iam sure our world is full of idealism and the high amount of military budgets is only spend on idealistic motives. :p

Hmm a few minutes studying the history of the Congo conflicts would have shown you what a complex problem it was. No less than 8 foreign governments took part in the 2nd war and under those circumstances with so many different factions and different forces on the ground it's not really something that anyone could solve with a simple military action, however $Billions have been spent by the EU, US and many others through the UN trying to solve the problem.

You may remember the blood diamond scandal and the other illegal mining operations. If you look at the Second Congo War wikipedia page you will notice a familiar list of dictators that were involved in prolonging the conflict while growing very rich. For this reason Military operations and diplomatic efforts made by the UN, African Union and Southern African Development Community failed to make any headway (surprise, surprise) until UN members from outside the AU started getting involved after 2002, with authorisation from the UN Security Council. This actually included EU troops:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EUFOR_RD_Congo

Best to get your facts straight before commenting, it isn't that people don't want to do something, diplomatically they are prevented as the African leaders don't want outsiders snooping in their affairs as it curtails their business interests. The OAU/AU puts a veneer of legitimacy on some very corrupt chapters of the continents history. Critics have argued that the OAU in particular did little to protect the rights and liberties of African citizens from their own political leaders, often dubbing it the "Dictators' Club". They have also stopped cooperating with the International Criminal Court due to a warrant being issued for the President of Sudan over Darfur. They did very little to prevent the mass slaughter in southern Sudan and effectively turned a blind eye to it.

Did you actually think about why other regions in our world didnt progress and still dont advance that fast ?

All the time, usually you find a series of dictators supported and armed by Russia, China, North Korea at the expense of the ordinary people living in the country who usually go without food, education, medicine and other essentials to pay for the excesses and mistakes of their corrupt leadership.

Edited July 8, 2012 by PELHAM

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Did you actually think about why other regions in our world didnt progress and still dont advance that fast ?

All the time, usually you find a series of dictators supported and armed by Russia, China, North Korea at the expense of the ordinary people living in the country who usually go without food, education, medicine and other essentials to pay for the excesses and mistakes of their corrupt leadership.

This is precisely the case with Syria, Iraq, most of the "-stans", North Korea, Russia even - lack of self-esteem by the individual in said societies, which always results in a human farm for the benefit of a few. We're trying to remedy that one country at a time. :)

Although, if these people do not want to be free and responsible for their lives, then they have no use to Humanity, as they are easily swayed in the extremes of political movements, which creates a very unstable environment for any development.

In short, if a legitimate (foreign) investment is at risk in such a country due to the inability of the populace to think clearly and rationaly, you will see our carriers parked outside your waters. :)

Clinton: With more defections, Syrian regime's 'days are numbered'

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/07/08/world/meast/syria-unrest/index.html

(CNN) -- U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Sunday that "the days are numbered" for Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's regime.

"There is no doubt that the opposition is getting more effective in their defense of themselves and in going on the offense against the Syrian military and the Syrian government's militias," Clinton said during a press conference in Tokyo on Sunday.

And with a recent increase in defections from the al-Assad regime, "the sand is running out of the hourglass," Clinton said.

"The sooner there can be an end to the violence and a beginning of a political transition process, not only will fewer people die, but there's a chance to save the Syrian state from a catastrophic assault that would be very dangerous not only to Syria but to the region," she said.

This woman has balls. ;)

Edited July 8, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[gammadust 12]

No doubt there's a bunch of "Friends of Syria" cowardly licking her's

[PELHAM 10]

What she says about time running out for Assad is true. The recent defector, Brigadier-General Manaf Tlas, was one of his closest friends at one time and a member of the Central Committee of the Baath Party. They were at military college together and have often been photographed in each others company. I wonder if the Captain will go down with his ship this time as well? Funny isn't it how these 'much loved' dictators find themselves alone and friendless in the end.

[spooky lynx 73]

Due to impact of recent events, people of Russian Federation genuinely believe that a stable dictatorship is better than any reform in a rotten society, which is to say they'd rather drone to work daily, coming past the portraits on the streets of their respective "leaders" in a stable stagnation, than to find the dignity to show how they truly feel.

Due to recent elections in Tunisia and Egypt (where Islamists took power) and bloody civil wars and insurgencies in Libya and Iraq (and massive weapons smuggling from former Libyan army stocks to all Islamist groups across the Middle East) people of Russian federation in general and me personally think that one dictator who you can interact rather easy is far better than 1000 different armed militias or Muslim Brotherhood.

Thankfully, Turkey will cede territory for a promise to seriously review their application to the European Union, that is, of course, after they apologise and go through all the necessary reparations for the genocide of Armenians in WW I. :)

I'd like to watch you saying this in Turkey somewhere in public place :D

[PELHAM 10]

the people of Russian federation in general and me personally think that one dictator who you can interact rather easy is far better than 1000 different armed militias or Muslim Brotherhood.

Translation: 1 dictator who is easy to manipulate as we promise to support him no matter what he does, spends disproportionate sums buying our weapons, who will always vote with us at the UN, who's excesses draw attention away from Russia's own curbs on freedom. What's a million deaths to Russia when it needs to prop up these regimes to bolster it's economy and fix the vote at the UN? I just wonder when they will develop some sort of conscience and the wit to stop betting on the losing side lol.

[batto 17]

Hilary is full sh1t as always. Asking non-democratic government (= China) to help democracy in Syria. What a hypocrite.

Regarding those high profile defectors:

What they want you to see: "I poor general couldn't withstand cruelty of Assad regime anymore, look at me, I am crying, ...."

What probably happened: "Hmm, those paychecks from CIA could already cover good life in Paris and I fear I'm being investigated by intelligence for collaborating with rebels. Time to get out and start enjoying life."

[spooky lynx 73]

Translation: 1 dictator who is easy to manipulate as we promise to support him no matter what he does, spends disproportionate sums buying our weapons, who will always vote with us at the UN, who's excesses draw attention away from Russia's own curbs on freedom. What's a million deaths to Russia when it needs to prop up these regimes to bolster it's economy and fix the vote at the UN? I just wonder when they will develop some sort of conscience and the wit to stop betting on the losing side lol.

Well, another puppet regime that spends the same disproportionate sums buying European/US weapons, hosts US military bases, used death penalty for punishing sorcery and any improper words about prophet Muhammad or Qur'an and has absolute monarchy as its base is better, isn't it?;) Or armed to teeth militias who control only their region and sometimes clash with so called central government are far better that one government and one leader who you can interact with. Yes?

BTW, I'd recommend you not to twist your words with mine. I say what I say, okay?

[PELHAM 10]

@batto. Nice vid with some very easy going questions, no doubt pre-approved lol. He continually emphasises that he has public support and therefore will not step down err how can he tell?

The hastily changed 2012 constitution that allowed multi-party politics for the 1st time is full of rules that effectively ban most opposition members while allowing Assad another 14 years in office (just enough time for his son Hafez II to be old enough to take over). The election that followed very soon after was a sham with a very low turnout. How anyone was expected to get approval to form a party, nominate candidates and campaign in just 70 days is ludicrous and all international credible monitoring organisations condemned the process as not free or fair.

Whilst the 'democratic' reforms were being made, apart from the mass killings, a cartoonist critical of Assad had his hands smashed with hammers and someone who composed an anti-government song was found dead with his vocal cords cut out. A so called democracy where opposition members are arrested, kidnapped off the street and tortured is nothing but a sham.

Joke of the week: Assad changes Ba'ath Party name to Blood Ba'ath Party lol.

Edited July 9, 2012 by PELHAM

[-GR-Operative 10]

It's all about interests. Freedom? Throw it through the window if it's doesn't benefit you.

[Lauxman 10]

Operative;2186268']It's all about interests. Freedom? Throw it through the window if it's doesn't benefit you.

This is how every country has ever interacted in international politics ever.

[oxmox 73]

Hmm a few minutes studying the history of the Congo conflicts would have shown you what a complex problem it was. No less than 8 foreign governments took part in the 2nd war and under those circumstances with so many different factions and different forces on the ground it's not really something that anyone could solve with a simple military action, however $Billions have been spent by the EU, US and many others through the UN trying to solve the problem.

You may remember the blood diamond scandal and the other illegal mining operations. If you look at the Second Congo War wikipedia page you will notice a familiar list of dictators that were involved in prolonging the conflict while growing very rich. For this reason Military operations and diplomatic efforts made by the UN, African Union and Southern African Development Community failed to make any headway (surprise, surprise) until UN members from outside the AU started getting involved after 2002, with authorisation from the UN Security Council. This actually included EU troops:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EUFOR_RD_Congo

Best to get your facts straight before commenting, it isn't that people don't want to do something, diplomatically they are prevented as the African leaders don't want outsiders snooping in their affairs as it curtails their business interests. The OAU/AU puts a veneer of legitimacy on some very corrupt chapters of the continents history. Critics have argued that the OAU in particular did little to protect the rights and liberties of African citizens from their own political leaders, often dubbing it the "Dictators' Club". They have also stopped cooperating with the International Criminal Court due to a warrant being issued for the President of Sudan over Darfur. They did very little to prevent the mass slaughter in southern Sudan and effectively turned a blind eye to it.

All the time, usually you find a series of dictators supported and armed by Russia, China, North Korea at the expense of the ordinary people living in the country who usually go without food, education, medicine and other essentials to pay for the excesses and mistakes of their corrupt leadership.

The biggest UN mission did start in 2006. In the time since 1998 already 3 million people did die in this conflict, one million refugees and almost half a million outside of the boarders. Most of the UN troops were positioned in the areas with most of the valueable ressources of the country, a smaller part to monitor the elections in the main city. And yes, the EU alone did support the elections with hundreds of millions €. The country before was for longer a game ball for foreign powers, it was even created by them. Iam sure you did understand my main message with the sentence I wrote, that actually military intervention are often not solely for just idealistic motives. There are more examples about Africa and if the middle east would not be such an important area for geopolitical interests besides the controversials with Israel there would be a lot less attention about this area.

All the time, usually you find a series of dictators supported and armed by Russia, China, North Korea at the expense of the ordinary people living in the country who usually go without food, education, medicine and other essentials to pay for the excesses and mistakes of their corrupt leadership.

This is true, but it is only one side of the coin. Read about the history of economical influence and imperialism, the effects of so called third world help and the debt trap, the economical impacts for example in Africa by the EU, price manipulations and control for certain ressources/products, the power of corporates. The backers who actually did help the dictators to get to power. There are loads of interesting points which belong to the reasons aswell.

And back to the topic about Syria, we can only hope that the decisions which are made dont lead to a lot higher numbers of victims in comparison to what we see already. There will be a change for sure in Syria and the pressure for a military intervention lies in the air.

Edited July 14, 2012 by oxmox

[PELHAM 10]

Oxmox I'm from Africa, I know precisely what the problems are and have seen it with my own eyes, lived it, and suffered the consequences. The entire continent is awash with communist manufactured arms and the meddling by China, Russia, Cuba and North Korea caused the most harm, the most instability and the most deaths. I know, I was there. Many of the corrupt politicians and military in sub Saharan Africa still warmly call each other 'comrade' and use the word 'viva' which they learned in the training camps. They pay themselves outrageous salaries, travel in motorcades larger than Obamas, live in the most expensive purpose built mansions, think nothing of offloading passengers from a scheduled flight and using the aircraft to fly to Europe for a personal shopping trip. All this while ordinary people go without and anyone seen as a threat is neatly intimidated or disposed of.

That old chestnut about 3rd world debt is laughable to most Africans, where do you think the debt came from in the 1st place? Once the debt is cancelled the dictators will just spend more on themselves and rack it up again, then ask for it to be cancelled yet again. Do poor people in Africa a favour and don't fall for that nonsense. The debt was the only thing that could be used to control their excesses.

Syria isn't much different, those of us that have lived it know the signs. The events on thursday are yet another confirmation. If Assad's story is true why did he not allow UN monitors immediate access? He kept them away from the area for 3 days. Unfortunately for him you can't hide the truth from satellites and other means and the various bodies of the UN will all have been shown the evidence which is why they have all resoundly criticised it. The rebels don't have tanks, helicopters and aircraft and it was a blatant transgression of the UN peace plan which you can read for yourself here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kofi_Annan_peace_plan_for_Syria#6-point_peace_plan

(1) commit to work with the Envoy in an inclusive Syrian-led political process to address the legitimate aspirations and concerns of the Syrian people, and, to this end, commit to appoint an empowered interlocutor when invited to do so by the Envoy;

(2) commit to stop the fighting and achieve urgently an effective United Nations supervised cessation of armed violence in all its forms by all parties to protect civilians and stabilise the country.

To this end, the Syrian government should immediately cease troop movements towards, and end the use of heavy weapons in, population centres, and begin pullback of military concentrations in and around population centres.

As these actions are being taken on the ground, the Syrian government should work with the Envoy to bring about a sustained cessation of armed violence in all its forms by all parties with an effective United Nations supervision mechanism.

Similar commitments would be sought by the Envoy from the opposition and all relevant elements to stop the fighting and work with him to bring about a sustained cessation of armed violence in all its forms by all parties with an effective United Nations supervision mechanism;

(3) ensure timely provision of humanitarian assistance to all areas affected by the fighting, and to this end, as immediate steps, to accept and implement a daily two hour humanitarian pause and to coordinate exact time and modalities of the daily pause through an efficient mechanism, including at local level;

(4) intensify the pace and scale of release of arbitrarily detained persons, including especially vulnerable categories of persons, and persons involved in peaceful political activities, provide without delay through appropriate channels a list of all places in which such persons are being detained, immediately begin organizing access to such locations and through appropriate channels respond promptly to all written requests for information, access or release regarding such persons;

(5) ensure freedom of movement throughout the country for journalists and a non-discriminatory visa policy for them;

(6) respect freedom of association and the right to demonstrate peacefully as legally guaranteed.

As you can see Assad hasn't complied with a single word of it.

[eble 3]

Syrian defence minister killed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18887190

escalation or random attack?

[batto 17]

Syrian defence minister killed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18887190

escalation or random attack?

Clicked the link, heard the guy on live stream "This clearly sets the victory for rebels" :j: Let's all take al-Qaeda flags and kill anyone who opposes while screaming Allahu Akbaru. This is victory of freedom!!!

Two weeks ago I literally lol'd when I saw how those dumb f*cks exploded in THEIR OWN IED. Good Fake Syria Army rebel = dead Fake Syria Army rebel.

[ProfTournesol 956]

"Three men at the heart of President Assad's defence team have died in a suicide bombing"

"The president's defence minister, brother-in-law and head of his crisis team were at a meeting at national security headquarters in Damascus...."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18882149

Edited July 18, 2012 by ProfTournesol