Syria - What should we do if anything?

[ProfTournesol 956]

Reformist Hassan Rowhani elected at Iran's presidency : http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/15/hassan-rowhani-wins-election-iran-president_n_3446945.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

That could change something somewhere someday. Who knows...

[spooky lynx 73]

Oh not this WMD bullpoo again... Hey, Mr. Obama, are you not smart enough to make some other excuse to attack another country?

[On_Sabbatical 11]

Oh not this WMD bullpoo again... Hey, Mr. Obama, are you not smart enough to make some other excuse to attack another country?

Reminds me of some Collin poKZEJFHKSDGVNezZBANANA proof to justify the democratization of Iraq ^^

[spooky lynx 73]

True. Will we see some probe again?

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

How was it determined that chemical weapons were used?

France,uk,usa analysed soil and blood,urine,tissue samples from victims. France, uk confirmed 1st. Putins simple answer is that the results of the tests were faked. If you consider witnesses, UN & Gov reports, video, scientists, journalists, pysical evidence etc. It involves too many independant people all telling the same story across several different countries to be a fake?

[spooky lynx 73]

Emm... From what I know UN said that not the government but so called opposition used CW.

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

Emm... From what I know UN said that not the government but so called opposition used CW.

Erm....they said there was evidence for both sides using it but the majority of the attacks were from the government side.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Doubt US will send in troops more likely there will be an increase (small) arms weapon deals and perhaps adding some more AT/AA launchers. It has been said that Syrian Army used Sarin on small scale /areas but there was no reliable proof because of the situation / chaos. Its easier to blame one or the other side for example using chemical weapons on small scale operations if there is no chance to figure out who did what and when. Guess there is a lot of money involved to keep a war running and a lot of profit to make with re-building infrastructures etc after the war....

[scrim 1]

That chemical weapons have been used in Syria doesn't appear unlikely. However, who did it, and who authorized it is very much a grey area. Let's face it, in the end of the day it's been documented that terrorists attempted using chemical weapons in Iraq, but with little success. Many of those have found Syria to be a far more receptable country for the jihad now than Iraq has been for years, and it's a proven fact that chemical weapons are part of the Syrian military stockpiles, and that considerable quantities of these have fallen into opposition and/or terrorist hands.

Now, would anyone doubt that the people who actually tried using chemical weapons on civilians in Iraq would do the same towards civilians in Syria to give Obama an excuse for arming them to their teeth? And if Assad were to use chemical weapons, do we really think he would decide to cross the "red line", but without doing it in big enough of a scale for it to matter? Less than 200 killed by chemical weapons in a war with more than 93 000 dead already. It might just as well have been captured stockpiles hit by regime shellings and air strikes, clumpsy handling, etc.

[mrcash2009 0]

Now, would anyone doubt that the people who actually tried using chemical weapons on civilians in Iraq would do the same towards civilians in Syria to give Obama an excuse for arming them to their teeth?

Cant say I agree on linking them, but in answer to your question, maybe that was the message. Or at least letting it be known what would cause that to happen dropped a large hint. Its either that or you find the evidence for it, and we saw that already some time ago. Or, this all panned out as its been said.

Bottom line is the trigger has been flicked and now we have to see how this unravels.

Edited June 16, 2013 by mrcash2009

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

I had a look into who collected the the samples from Syria that tested +ive for sarin. In one case it was journalists from Le Monde who collected samples near Damascus. They were later tested by french scientists and the UN, the results being positive.

As for methods of deployment, most witnesses and victims report canisters being dropped from heliopters (eg Saraqeb). Rebels dont have helicopters?

Edited June 16, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[oxmox 73]

check this out.......about the chemical warfare in Syria. In some countries a strong type of crowd control gas is used which can lead to death i.e. Bahrain, Egypt, Syria,.....

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/world_news/Middle_East/article1234718.ece

more than 30+ deaths from tear gas in Bahrain

http://physiciansforhumanrights.org/blog/tear-gas-or-lethal-gas.html

http://www.ruigphotography.com/NusraChemicalWeaponsSyria

http://rogueadventurer.com/2013/05/09/alleged-cw-delivery-systems-in-syria-are-more-likely-less-lethal-munitions/

This is the article from "LeMonde" in english, quiete interesting:

http://www.lemonde.fr/proche-orient/article/2013/05/27/chemical-war-in-syria_3417708_3218.html

Well, of course Sarin is something different and it is one of the most deadly gas in the world.....lets see what infos they will deliver on the next G8 meeting.

Edited June 16, 2013 by oxmox

[oxmox 73]

Yesterday, I did hear in the news that the 100-150 victims of chemical gas died within a year. This was unclear to me since the media only did write about the numbers but not about the time or incident. Unfortunately there were not really any further informations in the press about the chemical attacks, especially sarin, which was (promised ?) to deliver at the G8 meeting.

[spooky lynx 73]

Who cares about the time? The main goal is to topple Assad no metter of what he may do.

[scrim 1]

Re the Lemonde article: If those FSA men are actually worried about sarin gas, how come they walk around with just gas masks and no protective clothing, not even bothering to roll down their sleeves? Sarin gas has no problem penetrating the skin.

All that journalist would've had to do in order to see through the lies there would've been a quick Google search. But then again, just like with the Reuters journalist who snapped a picture of an Iraqi woman holding 5.56 rounds that were alleged to have been fired at her house by American soldiers, despite the bullets still sitting in the very clean, obviously commercial (no colour markings) cartridge, who knows?

Seriously, if the Assad regime actually wants to start using chemical weapons on a large scale, now would probably be the best time, because the reports would drown in the fake reports of gas. And considering the recent successes of the regime, why would they use gas on such a small scale that it would not help, but still be enough to make a case for sending weapons to the FSA?

[ProfTournesol 956]

Who cares about the time? The main goal is to topple Assad no metter of what he may do.

As Russian goal is to supply him with as many weapons as possible, whatever crimes he may commit.

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

As Russian goal is to supply him with as many weapons as possible, whatever crimes he may commit.

The Russian strategic goal is a regional war so their aim of an oil/gas monopoly moves a step closer. Another indication is the refusal to enter into further talks on reducing nuclear weapons. The US has indicated they wish to reduce their warheads by 1/3.

The cash from Syrian arms contracts is just a small bonus.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[On_Sabbatical 11]

A president who was warned against using chemical weapons and uses them anyway (i'm waiting impatiently for those proofs -.-),Israeli jets attacking the regime's convoys and facilities without any retaliations from any side (not even Iran or Russia),Hezbollah and Iran that pretend to be Israel's first ennemy but ,instead,go kill inoncents in Syria and finally the USA that is an omnipresent in the area and not able to do anything for the people dying knowing that they have the power to do so and they did and still do elsewhere ...

There is something wrong with all this ... if you think about the above you would see that this war is just Inocent civs versus the others !

[vilas 477]

good vs bad side in war was last time in 1945,

there were evil Japanese Empire Army (Unit 731 as exmple) and evil German Nazi(Waffen SS and all Holocaust) vs. rest of nations as victims who had burned homes (20% of Poland was ruined with the ground level, 20% of houses, 20% of people killed after 1939 attack) ,

it was last time good guys vs bad guys, when American soldiers landed on D-Day to save Europe and sacrified their blood for our freedom along with Russians who also sacrified blood to kill Hitler,

but it ended,

later there are difficult wars which are like "superpower corrupted by interest of oil companies vs. mad religious freaks" or "mad dictator vs. mad religious freaks" etc. in the world.

it is difficult to say who is bad and who is good, most often it looks like "one bandit beat another bandit on street" , of course WORST of it all is that innocent civilians suffer ,

if religion option wins - bad , if dictator win - another bad,

example in North Africa, after religious governments there get power - even graves of fallen WW2 soldiers were destroyed (Polish , British , German graves in Tunesia were destroyed, cause there was no "half-moon" on thombstones) i personally know one Egyptian who had to escape from Egipt cause he was Orthodox (they call it Coptic Church, if you not know, ca. 18-20% of Egyptians were Orthodox Christians, and after "Arab spring" i know one who had to escape his home with afraid of being cut-throat by Muslims)

i know what happened to some people in Lybia, i know what happened in Tunesia etc.

in this war it is difficult to say who is bad,

i never supported gays, i never supported lesbians BUT when i see people who want to cut-throat them, i prefer dictator who LET people live because of their sex , than guys who wanna kill all who has no beard, having such "choice" (between bad and worse) i prefere "bad" than "worse" , i prefer dictator who keeps state off religion which say to kill people for their sex activity with other adult men/women, Islam is danger to our civilisation and it is fact that "political correctness" do not allow to say people on the west, thanx "god" i am men from East , i am Slavic and politcal correctness do not touches me ,

Christianity is much much more peacefull than Islam, Christianity do not kill people for sleeping with someone (of course i am voting for death penalty for paedophilia) but if adult man sleep with adult man or adult woman sleep with adult woman - is not reason to kill them, they have right to have their happiness in their home without anyone stopping them, just like i am not loving American government, but if they fight with those who deny right to live cause someone do not believe in Allah , let Americans blow them into ash cause i am atheist and i do not believe in anything and i do not want people to be cut-throated because they do not believe in god of any kind or they eat pork meat or they had sex with someone adult,

Syrian gov. has of course bad deeds, but what we can do in such situation ? allow to establish another Islam country ?

the best way would be "third option" - secular government without Islam and without Assad - but is it possible in real life in this region - probably not,

we all know that some "dictators" in this area kept in past this region from Sharia-state, those dicators were of course "evil" but it is unsolvable, till those societies will act more "civilised" (attitude to right to live for people with different sex orientation, even right to eat whatever someone like to eat without religious bans on some kinds of food or some kinds of music including metal, rock etc. etc.)

Edited June 20, 2013 by vilas

[On_Sabbatical 11]

Yes,what if no one is good ?

I was thinking about multi sides option ... but i can only see people getting slaughtered by the weapons of the army and fanatics and by the silence of the world :)

"...his home with afraid of being cut-throat by Muslims"

Well,i would be careful with such facts ... generalizing things is not a good idea and especially nowadays !

It's like saying : "Buddhists cutting to pieces Muslims in Myanmar" ! (you can find some Holocaust-like images on the internet)!

A community cannot be judged by the actions of some of its individuals ! (good or bad actions)

i never supported gays, i never supported lesbians BUT when i see people who want to cut-throat them, i prefer dictator who LET people live because of their sex , than guys who wanna kill all who has no beard, having such "choice" (between bad and worse) i prefere "bad" than "worse" , i prefer dictator who keeps state off religion which say to kill people for their sex activity with other adult men/women, Islam is danger to our civilisation and it is fact that "political correctness" do not allow to say people on the west, thanx "god" i am men from East , i am Slavic and politcal correctness do not touches me ,

Christianity is much much more peacefull than Islam, Christianity do not kill people for sleeping with someone (of course i am voting for death penalty for paedophilia) but if adult man sleep with adult man or adult woman sleep with adult woman - is not reason to kill them, they have right to have their happiness in their home without anyone stopping them, just like i am not loving American government, but if they fight with those who deny right to live cause someone do not believe in Allah , let Americans blow them into ash cause i am atheist and i do not believe in anything and i do not want people to be cut-throated because they do not believe in god of any kind or they eat pork meat or they had sex with someone adult,

Syrian gov. has of course bad deeds, but what we can do in such situation ? allow to establish another Islam country ?

the best way would be "third option" - secular government without Islam and without Assad - but is it possible in real life in this region - probably not,

we all know that some "dictators" in this area kept in past this region from Sharia-state

Well,i am not anymore fan of going offtopic ! :D

Edited June 20, 2013 by On_Sabbatical

[vilas 477]

third option would be the best - new syrian gov.

1 - Assad punished by people for his crimes (i do not know details)

2 - new government which is atheistic and allow people to live like they could live in past , if they want to pray Allah - let they pray, if they want to eat pork meat - let they eat,

but question is - if such gov. could be formed by Syrian people ? so far most agressive are always 2 sides - one - who want power, second - who want to keep power they have, but third side - civilians - are suffering - it is worst in this, but how to stop it without allowing to get into the power by religious ? it is most problematic, for sure civilians are target for both fighting sides, it is worst thing,

it is like in Afghanistan 80s/00s, Viet-Nam in 60/70s etc.

"civilised" world should have to somehow fix such situations, UN forces are not that strong, the best solution maybe would be "UN occupation" ? hell knows, but shame is that noone (of governments) will go to war in which there is no oil to steal :( the same we seen in Africa when milion of Tootsie or Hootu tribe (i do not remember name of tribe) were slaughtered by another tribe (Hootoo slaughtered Tootsie or Tootsie slaughtered Hootoo nation) and noone reacted :/

[spooky lynx 73]

You forget that Arab society is still clan-based, and clan's interests are often more important than state's interests. So now there is no way for keeping state interests at the top except dictatorship. Sad but true. Maybe some decades later they will transform their social relations to something similar to European-like style. But they should do it themselves but not being pushed by somebody other. We had the same experiment with our Caucasian and Middle Asian republics, trying to make them step to socialism from feudal society. Yes they seemed to become the same as our European regions but just after collapse of USSR they quickly returned to feudal traditions.

[On_Sabbatical 11]

As i said on another thread a system that works for some country won't necessarely work on another one ! Arab countries are completely diffrent from european ones,the societies are not the same ... you do not land among 1.7 billion of muslims and say : ok,we gonna make this secular,it's not going to work ! those countries are muslim because the majority is and yes,the shariah is the rule (only some gulf countries do apply it) ... and it won't apply on you if you're not muslim ! it's like any other organisation ! once you're engaged you accept the rules and follow them ,and in case you do not ,you assume your responsibility !

[scrim 1]

As i said on another thread a system that works for some country won't necessarely work on another one ! Arab countries are completely diffrent from european ones,the societies are not the same ... you do not land among 1.7 billion of muslims and say : ok,we gonna make this secular,it's not going to work ! those countries are muslim because the majority is and yes,the shariah is the rule (only some gulf countries do apply it) ... and it won't apply on you if you're not muslim ! it's like any other organisation ! once you're engaged you accept the rules and follow them ,and in case you do not ,you assume your responsibility !

And this is why we can't support the opposition; They see little if any fault in Islamist rule.

[ProfTournesol 956]

the shariah is the rule (only some gulf countries do apply it) ... and it won't apply on you if you're not muslim ! it's like any other organisation ! once you're engaged you accept the rules and follow them ,and in case you do not ,you assume your responsibility !

Mmm... that's far from being true. See what's happening in Tunisia today. People being arrested and forced to wear islamic scarf at their trial. As long as Sharia will be the rule, democracy won't prevail. Thanks god, Arab countries do have a lot of young educated people, i just hope they will be more successful than the Iranian ones a few years ago. Let's hope that the so called Arab spring isn't only a come back to middle age and obscurancy.

Edited June 20, 2013 by ProfTournesol