Syria - What should we do if anything?

[raptor90 1]

What should we do ?

This !

[[frl]myke 14]

Deleted last 2 OT posts. Handed out infractions as necessary. Now please back to topic.

[Amra 10]

Time to remind

Syrians hate the FSA

[scrim 1]

Oh please share your fascinating, deep, real world related analyses with us.

Not quite sure if you are against or for the Assad regime, considering that you are chosing to let football hooligans represent it. :rolleyes:

[spooky lynx 73]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/21/world/middleeast/syria-uses-cluster-bombs-to-attack-as-many-civilians-as-possible.html?hp&_r=0

Remember that argument I had with Spooky Lynx a few months ago? We all heard how it is useless to drop RBK-250s on urban areas, because they're ineffective against buildings and the itty bitty HEAT bomblets can't seriously harm anyone, and therefore all the reports of their use were false reporting by the West? So here we are, a cluster bomb strike on a town far from any frontline combat, killing over 20 civilians, and still there have been no serious moves towards intervention, nothing to act on all the supposedly false reports the foreign press has been making. Meanwhile, Russia has all but renounced its support for Assad, acknowledging the ultimate doom of their policy that has so directly aided in the taking of 40,000 lives.

So I just wanted to expose Spooky Lynx's consistent approach to these issues are a morally disgusting, dishonest, systematic justification of any state terror, so long as it is perpetrated by Russia and its allies and not the West or it its. So here it is. He's wrong, here's the proof, and man does it piss me off.

Aren't you journalist working at some yellow media?:) Read a bit better the article you posted - 4 killed and 23 wounded. And only three names of died victims of this bombing are provided. Looks like one anecdote from Odessa: "-Abram, have you heard about Rabinovich won one million in the lottery? -Yes. But he didn't win but lost, not million but 50 roubles, and not in the lottery but in poker". Oh and I take all such articles with huge grain of salt. Just like RT ones.

And if you hadn't understood my point of view, I'll tell it. All my justifications of so called state terror by Russia and its allies were an answer to blamings from our Western friends. I've never blamed any Western 'state terror' first. I know that it's the same politic instrument and part of our life. Every country that has enouch power and interests will use it to defend its goals. Russia, US, UK, China, France, Germany, Israel, Iran - everybody. And when again some of you westerners start ranting about another 'bloody dictator' I come and 'justify' what he does. Because you do the same for many times and have a impudence to rant about others' sins.

[scrim 1]

Yeah, you're gonna have to stop equating respectable, credit news sources like the NY Times with "news" sources coming from a country that has some of the worst press freedom rates outside of the third world, like Russia Today (Putin's Fox News). They just aren't comparible.

And no, Western countries don't defend dictators like Putin's regime does. Yes, we trade with them, etc., but when they go ape shit on their population and start bombing and shelling civilians indiscriminately, we have never, ever defended them either in public or supplied them with weapons like Syria has been. That is where the monumental difference lies. We in the West do some nasty things, but nothing on those scales, our governments are actually very different.

[spooky lynx 73]

And no, Western countries don't defend dictators like Putin's regime does. Yes, we trade with them, etc., but when they go ape shit on their population and start bombing and shelling civilians indiscriminately, we have never, ever defended them either in public or supplied them with weapons like Syria has been. That is where the monumental difference lies. We in the West do some nasty things, but nothing on those scales, our governments are actually very different.

So you don't remember Batista, Contras and other Central American dictators that were supported by US, Kuwait, recent unrest in Saudi Arabia and Qatar? Support of medieval Gulf regimes that torture their citizens because of one wrong word about Prophet Muhammad and haven't heard about human rights, eh? Oh and I haven't even told about very democratic South Vietnamese regime:) So please don't ashame yourself and don't speak about support of dictatorships. Everybody does dirty things, both Russia and West. This is realpolitik, and we have nothing to do with it. Every greater state has its allies, no matter of their regime.

Edited December 23, 2012 by Spooky Lynx

[scrim 1]

Yeah, except the support to the Contras resulted in the scandal surrounding the Iran-Contras affair, because get this, the support of the Contras had been outlawed in Congress, and when it was discovered that they had been secretly supported by a few individuals in the Reagan administration, there was a scandal because of it. So, what do you Russians call the scandal surrounding your support to the Assad regime, which is considerably worse than the Contras?

Batista was a rotten apple, but compared to Assad and pretty much all other dictators supported by Russia he was a very nice bloke.

Saudi Arabia and Quatar aren't really democracies, but they have not gone apeshit (or should we call it "go Assad"?) on their populations, which just might be why they aren't about to be overthrown due to a civil war. Here's the thing about regimes around the world: Most countries aren't democracies, so you can't really just go ahead and say "no, we're only going to deal with democracies, and shut down our embassies in countries that aren't", because the world would pretty much stop, and spreading democracy would be limited to invasions. When the regimes we deal with go Assad on their own population, we have a tendency of imposing embargos, cutting relations, supporting the opposition and at times even launching military interventions, all of which tend to be opposed by two certain permanent members of the UN Security Council, namely the two countries that do not have a very good history regarding democracy even at home.

Yes, everyone does dirty things, but even dirt has very different shades, and the Western world rarely ventures into the same shades of dirt that is commonly inhabited by the East, or more specifically, Russia. I'm not "ashaming" myself, because I'm not the one of us who are lying. Your very limited support by others here on the forums when it comes to these topics should indicate that you might not be a very good or unbiased analysist.

Edited December 23, 2012 by scrim

[spooky lynx 73]

KSA and other Gulf buddies just have card-blanche and safety from no-fly zones:) That's why they can afford everything and its citizens realize they have nothing to do. Nobody will support them in fighting against armed to teeth oppressive regimes. What Qatar got after crash of protests in the country? Nothing. But local amir used APCs and tanks to destroy the camp of protesters. Moreover it used help of Saudi comrades. And what? Where's the shitestorm in media about bloody oppressive regimes with no elections at all where you can be put in jail only for being not enough religious? But every media outlet screams about Assad's sins. Again I ask you not to cover yourself in shame and not try to paint your friendly dictatorships with brighter colors. They are not better than Assad.

[scrim 1]

Uhm, yeah, they used APCs and tanks. The difference between them and the Syrians is that their AFVs were used to literally destroy the protesters' camps by running them down and by being used as riot control, as where Assads AFVs came in with machine guns and main weapons blazing. See the difference?

The Western world wasn't on bad terms with the Libyan regime until they went apeshit, and look what we did: Whilst Russia went up in the roof in the UN Security Council and screemed bloody murder, we imposed embargos on the Libyan regime, we imposed no-fly zones, organised the opposition and bombed the living sense out of Ghaddafi's AFVs and everything painted in green, thus shortening the conflict and getting rid of a dictator who had over stepped his the line even for a dictator. Our relation with regimes like Saudi Arabia and Quatar keeps them from doing the things Ghaddafi and Assad does, because they know that if they do, we will cut them off and might even help the opposition. That is because the Western world is 100% democratic, and in societes with a free press people get to know what is going on, and they won't vote for guys like Putin, so our leaders don't support Assads and Ghaddafis. The same can't be said for Russia, which enjoys neither a free press, or a free democratic society, which makes it possible for Putin to essentially be president for life, cap opposition reporters (remember Politkovskaya?). Russia is one of only two European country that rates as Not Free according to Freedom House. All of these factors should indicate that the spectacular differences between the Western world and Russia plays a key role in what sort of regimes we associate ourselves with, and what sort of border-line genocidal (if not completely genocidal) regimes Russia associates itself with, like Assad. You are quite frankly blind, quite possibly by your own will if you can't see that.

[spooky lynx 73]

Oh yes, shortening a conflict... Raising 100500 armed militias who fight each others till now and storm US embassy... Great shortening! Some weapons that were in Quaddafi's stocks end somewhere near the Israeli border in the hands of Hamas... Great shortening! Quaddafi overstepped the line? Yeah, especially with giving the viagra th his soldiers to make them moar rapings;) Helping the group that has former officially recognized AQ high-rank member who became Tripoli commendant... Top notch ending.

And please don't tell me about freedoms in Russia and especially Politkovskaya. She supported genocide of Russians and Ukrainians in Chechnya and admired those who are officially labeled as terrorists even by US DoS. So finally she got what she deserved. Oh and I know better about the freedoms in my country, okay?

Edited December 24, 2012 by Spooky Lynx
edited by request of [FRL]Myke

[scrim 1]

Yeah, except it wasn't a Western country that raised them, so would you care to stop lying? And no, al Qaeda wasn't one of the groups that fought Ghaddafi.

No, Ghaddafi over stepped the line when he started bombing and shelling major cities indiscriminately, but then again, nothing strange for you Russians considering Chechnya I suppose.

I can't even be bothered to respond to the rest of your nonsense with anything else than: Stop reading RT, because you're sounding like a crazy person.

[[frl]myke 14]

@Spooky Lynx

while you're entitled to your opinion, there are limits to what can be written and what should remain unwritten. Your post above clearly crosses this line, no matter if it's true or not. Please edit your post ASAP or it will be deleted without further notice.

[MAVEN 1]

Scrim, I guess you are from Syria. It explains why you are so rampant about this entire thread.

I feel sorry for you, coming from a place with no future, having nothing else to do than argue with people on this forum, and worst of all insulting people's nationality and religion, that's really sad.

I hope that some day you do open your eyes and see the world around you, understand what's happening and create yourself a future.

As for Russia is evil, US is evil, whole world is evil... I will tell you only this - Survival of the fittest, if you are a weakling then don't bother.

Lynx and everyone else, avoid arguing with anyone like scrim or you will end up talking to a wall and waste time on something that can't be changed :D

[scrim 1]

No, I'm not from Syria. As I've very clearly indicated, I'm from a part of he world known as the West, so you don't really have anything to win in comparing countries. However, your extremely insulting attitude against people from the country who's dictator your country has no moral objections about selling weapons to speaks clearly for your very cold hearted, sadistic way of viewing the rest of the world.

Beg my pardon, where did I insult any religions?

Ah, international Darwinism? You do understand how you're shooting yourself in the foot with that philosophy considering the latest invader of Russia?

If you think that my attitude regarding the support of the Syrian regime is like a "wall", I suggest you look through this thread as I doubt it is one you enjoy. Most people who've posted here are from Western countries, and are very critical of the Syrian regime, and its Russian support. Taking this into consideration, I fail to see why you insist on posting in this thread.

[batto 17]

Your very limited support by others here on the forums when it comes to these topics should indicate that you might not be a very good or unbiased analysist.

Hahaha. Anyway, I agree with you MAVEN. PELHAM at least backed up his arguments with (biased) sources. =)

[scrim 1]

Sigh. Ok, let's get to the core of the question with a rethorical question: Why'd you reckon that everyone from countries with press freedom say that you're sounding like you're from a different planet?

And for the record, I did actually provide arguments backed up by facts when there were claims that it was actually worth taking the time to respond to. That didn't seem to work well, as it ended with civil rights activist and oppositional journalist Politkovskaya, who was murdered, most probably at Putin's order, being refered to in extremely unflattering terms, and also apparently deserving to be shot to death after being subjected to slavery.

Edited December 23, 2012 by scrim

[MAVEN 1]

LOL, Scrim, want to know why I post on? It's interesting and entertaining to see what/how people think in here, notice I am new to these forums but I am not a rookie (and I must admit that unlike you, this community is very mature, intelligent, active and its members help one another, for which I am glad I am a member and kind of regret that I didn't join years ago when I started playing ArmA and VBS).

You are making people laugh their arses off just like I do each time I read what you post. As a proof, people send me emails and messages about how 'tarded you are, that I should mock you more which I do resist to do. Truth be told at first I wanted to make you understand, make you see things, perhaps help you out in a peaceful way, but your attitude is just so bad, your ignorance is worse than of a mid eastern mule, so there's no use trying to make you understand anymore.

And by the way when did I insult anyone in here? Except maybe you with truth, and not even direct insults. I respect people regardless of their race, origin or religion unlike you.

FYI, MAVEN - A trusted expert in a particular field, who seeks to pass knowledge on to others selflessly for benefit of others. So your claim that I'm insulting anyone or trying to cause commotion is invalid. In fact I help many people, tried to help you out, but of course if you reject, attack and ask to be made fun of I will use an opportunity just like everyone else would.

It's nearly new year's eve, take a chill pill and relax because if you carry on people will tear you to pieces for fun;) And if you do carry on all over and over I will do it myself as well :D

[scrim 1]

Flattering. I don't really care much about what a bunch of people living in a country with no free press thinks of me.

The latest from the BBC. A bomb/shell fired courtesy of the Assad regime has hit a very hostile building that was creating the deadly weapon known as bread. Despite the fact that the town is under rebel control, the regime claims it was a terrorist attack (then again, they did it so). Strange, how can the rebels have driven Assad's forces back so far if they insist on launching terrorist attacks against themselves?

The 90 very hostile terrorists seeking to arm themself with bread are among 180 civilians, sorry, terrorists who've been killed throughout Syria during Sunday alone. And they are among the 44,000 who have been killed since the conflict began. One would think that if Assad would have stepped down when the protests began instead of bombing them, perhaps there'd be a few less dead by now?

Edited December 24, 2012 by scrim

[MAVEN 1]

Flattering. I don't really care much about what a bunch of people living in a country with no free press thinks of me.

The latest from the BBC. A bomb/shell fired courtesy of the Assad regime has hit a very hostile building that was creating the deadly weapon known as bread. Despite the fact that the town is under rebel control, the regime claims it was a terrorist attack (then again, they did it so). Strange, how can the rebels have driven Assad's forces back so far if they insist on launching terrorist attacks against themselves?

[scrim 1]

Flattering indeed.

Ok, here's new take on it: I have provided you with a news source stating that the Assad regime is responsible for an attack on civilians, located outside of a civilian building. How about you, considering what you claim to be your superior intellect, go ahead and counter that by providing me with a link to a news source of your choice that claims something that would favor the Assad regime as much as the BBC article would disfavor him? There's just one rule, and that is that whatever news source you use, it has to be from a country that has a free press.

This is not an insult, it is a quite serious proposition.

You game?

[MAVEN 1]

I guess I'm going to disappoint you:)

Well, I don't listen to, read or watch any news site, tv channel, radio channel or blog, those types of information sources are for the masses to "educate" regardless is it "free press" or "state controlled media" it's all the same. My information comes from personal experience, trusted business connectionsm and logic combined with common sense.

Only occasionally do I check BBC and CNN for their Tech and Nature sections, which is thankfully something interesting to check out sometimes.

Mashable, NewScientist, Trendwatch, Techbuffalo, Gizmodo, psdtuts, Trendhunter, Toxel and many other are what I read and use. News sites about politics, conflicts and general bs? No thanks.

[scrim 1]

So I take it that you have travelled extensively in Syria since the uprising began? And that you have "trusted business connectionsm" on both sides over there? Otherwise I fail to recognise how you can act high and mighty in regards to the free press. Considering how much knowledge you act like you posess about the situation in Syria, you'd really have had to be there for the last few months, doing nothing but travelling the country.

[MAVEN 1]

I've never been to Syria. And I won't go into detail on other questions as this is a public forum. I will just say, I don't have connections, colleagues or friends from Syria, but do know trusted individuals who come all across the globe and have either been there or at least have more insight, these can be business connections, colleagues or just friends, it's actually very common for anyone who is into design and software development, and no, it's not something big or secret agency like LOL.

In fact, I never said I know a lot about what's going on in Syria, because, frankly, I don't care that much as you may think/interpret it as. I actually mentioned in one of my posts that only people who are there know the real truth.

That reminds me, how come you know "so much truth" about Syria and conflicts yourself if you aren't there or haven't "traveled the country for last few months", yet in previous posts you claimed you are neither Syrian nor do have anything to do with it? Hah :D

Someone's got caught in a lie? If not, then take a pick - You are Syrian but ran away, you are not a Syrian but live in Syria, or you just talk crap all over and over, or perhaps you believe and take propaganda and hold your ignorance as "real truth" regardless of what's really going on, other options and sources don't count ;)

[scrim 1]

No, I am not from Syria, despite the obsessive notion you've got in your head about that. The reason that I know so much about what goes on in Syria is because I actually read the news. You do not read the news. You get your "information" about Syria from people you've met through your job, and the common sense about these matters that you have developed from believing yourself superior the the free press. That's how you would have gotten information about what was going on if you were an illiterate farmer in the beginning of the 20th century, not someone living in the 21th century with access to the free press.

Here's the thing: In the Western world the free press exists. Despite your superior/paranoid notions about it, it is not an instrument for brain washing, but a source of information.

It is not propaganda, it is how the public of the free world informs itself about what is happening around the world, which would indicate why you and a bunch of other persons living outside of the free world seem to be the only persons on these forums except for the tin foil hat community that believes that Assad is a pleasent fellow.

All I can say is that personally, I can't take someone who holds a bloody regime in relatively high regards and doesn't even read the news seriously. I'm guessing that applies to most members of these forums.