Aliens and UFOs

[maddogx 13]

Anyone who bases their argument on an imaginary friend can not be reasoned with and by the same reason cannot understand science.

Well put. I think I'll just leave it at that. ;)

This discussion is veering off topic anyway.

[dm 9]

i can imagine how would like , one word: horrible

why ?

people need religions, to have morality

I dont need the fear of an imaginary punishment (hell) to stop me from murdering my neighbour, I know the difference between right and wrong without having to be persuaded to choose the "right" path with promises of eternal joy or damnation.

For once I agree with Walker...

[vilas 473]

where can you know border which you won't cross ?

what tells you "not to do" ?

you see "neighbor has nice wife, neighbor has nice car, why not to rape his wife, shot guy, take his car and drive highway" , what makes people stop to do it ? it is irrational from economical point of view , cause you would have to work for such car and probably had less beauty woman,

what makes you pay tax for cancer treatment if for example noone in you family since ages had cancer and you eat good food, have sport and know that cancer will not touch you, what makes you force your government to spend 10 000 USD to save one weak ill person with cancer ?

what stops someone from cheating wife ? if it is top secret situation and noone will know , what except fear ?

in some liberal and anti-church voices i head in Poland "what for to pay tax for dying man, it is economical nonsense"

so you say, that if humankind had no "religion" in history , today we would have hospitals which treat cancer for free (from taxes)?

i think that this what stops is religion in our culture (no matter of deeds of priests)

religion is something which probably ancient invented to make people better and make them less animals :]

you must invent things and ideas that make rest obey , otherwise they will eat you alive

"aliens" are very connected to it, cause if "science" will find aliens than whole Bible loose sense and ... i can only imagine hordes of morons robbing and raping "there is no hell, so i can do whatever i want"

people, specially those more primitive, need it very very much, all morality is based upon punishment , without punishment anything loose sense

i believe that even if governments had scientific proofs about any aliens they would keep it for one reason - it would kill religions and kill half of humanity fears (which born morality)

as atheist (but believing not in god, but in Christian values) and "technical mind" i always believe that "there must be reason" why people do this or people do that

and there is also probability math :] in such huge space it is hard to believe to be alone on this earth , but even if i knew anything about any alien, i would also keep secret, cause to some knowledge people are not enough grown and enough developed

we are stopping some countries to have nuclear bombs, we are stopping civilians to have good GPS, in past countries were stopping other countries from their technology to avoid use of this technology against them, moreover, i believe that special intel agents know 1000 times more than we can imagine, but they keep secrets because people are not grown enough

3,4, 8, 12, 150 or 1790 people on this forum may say "i am atheist and i don't steal" but if in our culture there was no "afraid of hell" i have no idea how 100000 other people would react seeing you with newest Canon DSLR in hand "there is no hell, i can take his camera, kill him, f** his slim girl and have fun for his money, why not"

in past i had some experience with criminals (lots of policeman neighbors, myself almost cadet, later some cases in court, now also working in legal-technical area) and i know one thing - many of them only afraid of punishment of any kind, they do not have morality, they have fear

religion is necessary for human - to bring them fear and morality (do not steal, do not kill, do not lie) by force , look at old people from countries with very high religion level, many of them are naive and not lie , look at developed "modern" good earning guys from marketing or pr or lawyers believing only in one life and money , do you see difference ?

one man will not cheat you, other only wait how to cheat you (and earn more money), difference is cause first man believes that something is evil, other man only calculate profit vs. loose

but still remains how the hell we appeared on this earth and think and behave different than hungry predator

Edited February 2, 2012 by vilas

[dm 9]

@The above post

can not be reasoned with

So true...

Religion != morality

I mean just look at how many millions (if not billions) of people have been killed in the name of religion over the last 2000 years...

what makes people stop to do it ?

I dunno, maybe because these things are crimes punishable by time in prison. People dont rob, rape and pillage because they will go to prison, not because of some fear of hell...

Edited February 2, 2012 by DM

[topas 1]

Well... Long story short; knowing the difference between good and evil (and defining it) is a concept developed by philosophy, not solely religion and is called 'morality'.

On this one:

if "science" will find aliens than whole Bible loose sense and ... i can only imagine hordes of morons robbing and raping "there is no hell, so i can do whatever i want"

I just want to ask this:

What about people for whom the Bible even now has no sense; atheists, gnostics, Jews (who deny to acknowledge the New Testament) and thousands of other people who tend to lean towards reason instead belief in the Judeo-Christian model? Do we see them running around "in hordes robbing and raping"? Plus, is everyone of the aformentioned a moron???

PS: What's with the quotation marks on science?

[dmarkwick 261]

I mean just look at how many millions (if not billions) of people have been killed in the name of religeon over the last 2000 years...

Religions don't kill people, people kill people.

I dunno, maybe because these things are crimes punishable by time in prison. People dont rob, rape and pillage because they will go to prison, not because of some fear of hell...

People don't rob, rape or pillage because most people are good people. Nothing to do with punishment (of any nature). Some tiny proportion will always though, regardless of deterrents. Religions neither cause, nor deter, wars. There is no religion that says you must kill anyone else for any reason other than punishment for actions. Always follow the money, or follow the power, for reasons for war :)

[Mr. Charles 22]

This thread is about Aliens, not morality and religion.

Meeting aliens should become possible after something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp_drive_%28Star_Trek%29 is invented ;)

[maddogx 13]

Vilas, in all seriousness, you are the only person on this forum whose posts make me physically shudder. I'm not joking.

As DM says, religion is not morality. Morality can exist without religion, and vice versa. More than enough people have been raped and killed simply because they didn't believe in the right god, the people who did the raping and killing justified it and reconciled it just fine with their religion.

Meeting aliens should become possible after something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp_drive_%28Star_Trek%29 is invented ;)

If only it were that simple. ;)

Edited February 2, 2012 by MadDogX

[dm 9]

Religions don't kill people, people kill people.

I said "in the name of" not "by", there is a difference ;)

This thread is about Aliens, not morality and religion.

Vilas has a tallent to drag threads wildly offtopic, and then complain when people start new threads related to his topics in an effort to bring the original thread back to topic/order. You get used to it after a while :/

[topas 1]

There is no religion that says you must kill anyone else for any reason other than punishment for actions

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

You should not let a sorceress live.

If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.

Etc. Etc. It's only a matter of defining the reason and action...For many people taking the above too seriously the only reason and action is: being different

Edited February 2, 2012 by topas

[vilas 473]

but do you say only about TODAY ? cause i was referring to post about history of humankind "what could we do if not religion"

look at punishment 100 years ago and today, look at technic level (forensic) 100 years ago , now they are much lower,

what stopped people who were not visible by urban everywhere-present police cameras ? what stopped people who were not afraid to leave one hair (DNA)

another thing - religion killed milions - but how many other milions were not killed because someone believed it is bad ? compare to milions killed by Hitler or Stalin or people killed in the name of economy

how many killed by religion in fact were killed by "king who wanted possess other land" , just like in XX century "president corrupted by bank owners wants take oil" , in X century religion was camouflage for war reason, now "freedom" ;]

what is street safety level in very religious Arab countries with poor forensic technicians and without everywhere-present cameras ? probably much better than in our modern world with those cameras but without majority afraid of any hell

Edited February 2, 2012 by vilas

[Serclaes 0]

Being an atheist I have to point out that science and religion (or rather faith) are not mutually exclusive. Just when institutions get in the way of science because it would prove the instution wrong it becomes problematic. See Galilei. Religious people can be outstanding scientists or religion can emphasize science.

What I don't understand is why exactly would the discovery of aliens render the bible obsolete?

[maddogx 13]

What I don't understand is why exactly would the discovery of aliens render the bible obsolete?

I guess because the bible only speaks of god creating the Earth, and all life upon it. If life is discovered elsewhere, it raises the question of where that life came from. Of course, creationists would probably say that god created all life in the universe 6000 years ago.

Personally, I would love to see a debate about evolution between an alien and a young earth creationist, especially if the alien civilization was older than 6000 years. :D

[vilas 473]

also Bible says about creating human on god's look

so if alien has different morality (let's say for silly Monthy Python's example , for alien it is immoral to wear blue hat in friday and yellow hat in saturday, but he kills without problem cause he multiplies somehow and do not value individual life cause it believes only in group work life ) than what ?

creationism is not wise of course, but i remind that i answered to SoulAssasin's post about if not religion we would live better world, i doubt it, i believe that if not religion, there would be no care about weak or poor, there would be Sparta instead of medical care and pensions

i believe that religion is story created by human , but necessary story to hold primitive and greed humans to respect each other more than in times like 20 000 b.c. or animals fighting each other

i remember stories told by my gramma about live in small town 70 years ago, when one robbery was "big deal" for local people, there was no marketing or commercials, cause people were panically afraid of hell etc.

SoulAssasin also said about how good technic development we could have , but atomic bombs, chips to control people, i have no idea, thermal scopes to see people behind bush

is it good for us? or only for rulers, what if we lived in world with technic far far better ? policeman controlling my thoughts against gov. cause primeminister has some for example dirty busines and police hunts you by you thoughts against politician ?

Edited February 2, 2012 by vilas

[Serclaes 0]

I guess because the bible only speaks of god creating the Earth, and all life upon it. If life is discovered elsewhere, it raises the question of where that life came from. Of course, creationists would probably say that god created all life in the universe 6000 years ago.

Personally, I would love to see a debate about evolution between an alien and a young earth creationist, especially if the alien civilization was older than 6000 years. :D

Imagine an alien creationist :D

My guess is he'd point out that god is almighty and can have many likings. And really what is space and time to an almighty god?

[-martin- 10]

I just want to ask this:

What about people for whom the Bible even now has no sense; atheists, gnostics, Jews (who deny to acknowledge the New Testament) and thousands of other people who tend to lean towards reason instead belief in the Judeo-Christian model? Do we see them running around "in hordes robbing and raping"? Plus, is everyone of the aformentioned a moron???

PS: What's with the quotation marks on science?

Hi all, just a quick post before I have to go...

I'm not going to stand of religions side or sciences side, but I have to objectively say this:

Although religion has caused wars, killed millions of people and continues to do so, so have scientists, so have governments and atheists... Basically, guns of books don't kill people, people kill people.

Religion doesn't belong in the same boat as science, religion belongs to culture, but we have to acknowledge that most of the moral values that we have in our society today (in Europe and the US) come from cultures that we had in the past, of which religion is a part of. We have values from the Roman Empire, from the Greeks, from the Slavs, from Christianity…. so without these cultures in history today’s world would look different.

But there are still people in the world today who aren't educated enough to leave religion, and believing in it actually keeps them reasonable, or people who are in situations in which it benefits them to believe in God (for now).

Take scenario 1 for example: A kid is in an orphanage where it gets bullied/mistreated, thinks of committing suicide but because of his belief for God doesn't do it, instead prays because his brain things that there is some imaginary friend that is listening to him. So he makes it till he’s 18, get released, finds work, a wife and his adult brain puts what has happened to him in to the past allowing him to lead a normal life.

If it wasn't for his belief, he would just say what the heck and hang himself.

I think if you're mature enough and ready to stop believing in religion than you should take the next step, but for now we should leave it up to time to catch up with the others, eventually religion will disappear like everything else in history, but for now a lot of people in society aren't ready for this, but eventually everyone will move forward with time

Me personally, I’ve been on the logical side of things (science) since I was little. I had moments in which I tried to believe but somehow I didn’t make it the ways its written in the old book, now as an adult I understand things differently and so I don’t really need religion even when I get upset.

Kind regards :smile:

[vilas 473]

i believe that science and religion should not be seen as opposite

cause science (psychology, sociology) of ancient people make them to create religion for the rest of people

cause if you will look at IQ statistics you will see that majority of people have 90-109, minority have over 110 but 30% have lower than 90, so ... it means that 1/3 is stupid today in XXI c., so... how it looked in 3000 b.c. ?

so how you wanna build society with stupid people ? you must give them strict clear rules - thats why religion was developed in past , cause otherwise when you would become weaker, someone stronger would take you goods

so ancient developed idea of religion and god (at least i believe that it was developed as socio-technique) cause without this trick it would be hard to keep people to obey rules (without forensic hi-tech, and without penal codex which comes from... eee... eeee... religions? all basic criminal codes come from ancient era)

it's not a matter if i or you or other well educated man on this forum need religion, it is needed by others who are not as developed , would you give to clans fighting in Africa atomic bombs ? would you give to pirats from Somalia laser canons ? no, why ? cause you must control groups of people somehow (cause they are not responsible enough or are greed too much)

the same reason was when ancient created religions, without religions we would not been further in "freedom, human rights, social employee rights" (the same i don't understand why liberalism in USA in Republican party comes with religion, for me religion comes only with socialism)

scenario which Martin shown is good, but i have another example:

lonely island, only there lives 2 kids and one girl, they for example are left, a lot of fruits among them, parents died in plane crash, not educated by "religion", 2 boys, one girl , girl chosen one boy, but one day they are growing to the age, that sex is so important that second boy kills first boy, to posses his woman, it is natural following instincts like animals do

or there is another scenario: there is healthy town, but only one guy has cancer, people would have to collect 100 USD from each one to collect 20 000 for cancer treatment, who will do it without religion saying that human life is priceless ? 10-20 left-wing hippies in town ? what about rest of 190-180 people in town, without religion they would say "why the heck i should tax myself for this guy, it's his problem" ? religions forbid such point of view, that's why i as atheist also believe that they are necessary for society, you will not say "something is bad or good" without "belief base" (specially when something is against economy, against profit)

i remember there was book and movie "lord of flies" or similar title about issue of growing people without culture (religion beliefs are part of culture)

Aliens discover published by press for example would crash most of human beliefs, thats why it should be kept in military archives (if exists) with "top secret, never open, burn before read" unless aliens are not beauty girls with nymphomaniac obsession who except sex do cooking, cleaning and then man can lie down with keyboard and play some games (enjoy life waiting for dinner) :D

[soul_assassin 1723]

I dont think that religion is responsible for holding back people from raping and killing. If they want to rape and kill they will do it, religion or not. Even more scaringly, most of the time they will find a way to integrate both (i.e. "god told me to do it", "we had to rape the women because they were infidels and we needed to cleanse them"), fanaticism and mental instability go hand in hand.

lonely island, only there lives 2 kids and one girl, they for example are left, a lot of fruits among them, parents died in plane crash, not educated by "religion", 2 boys, one girl , girl chosen one boy, but one day they are growing to the age, that sex is so important that second boy kills first boy, to posses his woman, it is natural following instincts like animals do

but you see this is fallacious argumentation. You assume that this is the only logical outcome in this situation. What if he doesn't kill the other boy? Then your theory doesnt work. You are drawing your conclusion from a instinctively random assumption.

back on topic:

in season 3 of AA in the episode on evil places they discuss a place in Russia called Valley of Death, which, according to local legend and several scientific expeditions, contains the things called "cauldrons" in the middle of a swamp. Large metallic hemispheres which would make everyone sick in a very short period of time. According to legend they are some kind of anti air defense system and a video from an expedition in the 90s shows very peculiar round swamp regions with flooded centers that seemed to have metallic bottoms. The place is in relative close proximity to Tunguska.

But before any meaningful research could be done everyone on the expedition got very sick and had to evacuate.

Read here:

http://www.realufos.net/2011/10/close-look-at-valley-of-death-yakutian.html

http://www.astrologycom.com/yakutia1.html#topic

I think this place is very peculiar, and might be the absolute key to prove the alien theory. The only place that I know of that could ACTUALLY contain alien tech underground.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Soul_Assassin

[Fenrisulven 1]

Witnessed 3 at one time flying in formation, turning and disappearing. Not even a sound. I still don't believe they where extraterrestrials. Could be some kind of natural phenomena, still to be explained, or a secret weapon system.

Then again you have NASA employees and renowned astronauts such as Edgar Mitchell openly admitting that we have been in contact with several races but it's been covered up by the government for some 50+ years. Then you also have the drake equation. Nobody really believe that we are alone in the universe, but few believe that we have been visited by another intelligent race.

However there are plenty of historical and archeological clues that points to that possibility. Sumerian mythology is one example and the translations of the Sumerian cuneiform tablets dating some 5-6000 years old and that describes, according to Zacharia Zitchin, how aliens (Annunaki) where mining mineral on earth but eventually the workers refused because of the hard labor. To solve this problem they apparently combined their own DNA with some of the native primates of this planet and voila, the workers a.k.a. the human race was born. Later this operation caused some controversy and some of these Aliens or "Gods" didn't like how the humans where treated and set them free, or something like that. I think it was Enki who favored the humans. Maybe this could explain the missing link? :rolleyes:

Regardless what you think about those translations they apparently describe our planet and the solar system in detail, even with illustrations:

.. that's some 6000 years ago and yet we thought that the earth was flat until late 1800's. Makes you think. These tablets are real and can be seen at the Pergamont Museum, Berlin.

Apparently similar stories can be found elsewhere. Mayan texts describe some type of sky people descending from the heavens and in the Bible you have the Nephilim (also giants similar the Annunaki) Genesis 6:1-4 "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days - and also afterward - when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them." It also says "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."

So maybe those Annunaki things are immortal and still runs this planet? That would explain a lot. According to some, most of these Annunaki left the planet more then 3000 years ago but are supposed to return around 2012-13, so I guess we just have to wait and see :rolleyes2:

Edited February 2, 2012 by Fenrisulven

[NoRailgunner 0]

Well and there was a guy who was saying that the Pyramids were build or placed by aliens not buy humans.... and he made a lot of money with this and similar of his "scientific research". Some people just want to believe in gods/myths or extraterrestrial interference. Why should aliens even bother or care about humans and earth?

[soul_assassin 1723]

Why should aliens even bother or care about humans and earth?

because if you could play god, wouldn't you? We are constantly studying, observing and experimenting with other species on this planet.

[Fenrisulven 1]

Well and there was a guy who was saying that the Pyramids were build or placed by aliens not buy humans.... and he made a lot of money with this and similar of his "scientific research". Some people just want to believe in gods/myths or extraterrestrial interference. Why should aliens even bother or care about humans and earth?

Compared to the inhospitable atmosphere of most planets, Earth supports carbon based life forms rather well. Other then that, natural resources or just sheer curiosity perhaps? If we found intelligent life within reach, would we not investigate?

Consider the possibility that this alien civilization could be a hundreds times more advanced then us. Maybe they had our level of knowledge and technology five hundred years ago. Maybe a hundred thousand years ago? Makes you think what they could be capable of. Maybe they transcended into multidimensional beings not needing technology to travel within space and time :rolleyes: Who can say really.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Fenrisulven

[-martin- 10]

@Vilas + 1

Consider the possibility that this alien civilization could be a hundreds times more advanced then us. Maybe they had our level of knowledge and technology five hundred years ago. Maybe a hundred thousand years ago? Makes you think what they could be capable of. Maybe they transcended into multidimensional beings not needing technology to travel within space and time Who can say really.

Why does everyone automatically assume that aliens have to be some kind of superior life form with technology that is way more advanced than us? That they have to look like us, have big eyes and so on... For all we know they might not even have eyes and they might not even interact like we do. Plus if they are intelligent, who says that the technology that they use can be picked up by the technology that we use. Look at all the different species of animals on our own planet (the estimated number is between 4 to 30 million species) and only one of these species, the human species is capable of communicating with a complex language and only one specie is advanced enough to develop any kind of technology, which in itself is actually a miracle.

So what makes people think that if we come to another planet there has to be some intelligent life form there? Furthermore, we have to think outside of our own time zone. Look at the Earth 200 million years ago, there were dinosaurs here. We're at a different stage of evolution, but the planet with aliens might be way more behind than us, so there might still be creatures like dinosaurs there.

I think its basic human instinct to think that there is something higher than us out there because this is the system we encounter since we're born. First our parents are above us, then teachers in school and then when we become adults there is nobody above us so we have to think that there is god/aliens.

I think if we come to a different planet and meet aliens they will be completely different creatures which won’t be as technologically advanced at us and probably won’t even resemble anything we know right now.

[Mark1028 10]

Abs, are you a real dinosauroid or do you play joke on me???

[-Puma- 2]

Abs, are you a real dinosauroid or do you play joke on me???

dam, where´s that fry meme..