precisionEnemy in 1.60

[Dwarden 1125]

Just saw the first request for the return of the precision setting was rejected about 14 days ago on the basis that it was counter-design.

Now there's a new definition for game design. It means breaking perfectly functional features in the strive for simplification. :j:

How is this anything other than supremely dumb? :raisebrow:

do you realize the precisionEnemy setting wasn't used ... it was just placebo effect...

what changed is the main skill setting value to actually work correctly (it was flawed where low values were actually worthless)

Suma explained the changes in great detail

[sickboy 13]

do you realize the precisionEnemy setting wasn't used ... it was just placebo effect...

what changed is the main skill setting value to actually work correctly (it was flawed where low values were actually worthless)

Suma explained the changes in great detail

I think this is incorrect, the settings did make a difference, but:

• Not as (much as) intended
  
• The precision setting had to be manually set in the arma2oaprofile file
  
• As soon as anyone changed the Skill slider within the ingame UI, the precision would be reset
  

Edited January 24, 2012 by Sickboy

[.kju 3244]

yup. precisionEnemy/Friendly certainly had a very noticeable effect.

[Dwarden 1125]

bad wording on my side, i mean used as the ingame skill UI always changed it to 'other' value ...

mission makers should rely on http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/setSkill_array

[NoRailgunner 0]

Still wonder why BIS aren't up making a more userfriendly AI option/edit menu instead of this "one or two imprecise sliders should be enough" approach? Or do BIS think that userfriendly GUI's are just waste of time??

Please, give us the options so at least players can roughly adjust AI to play with or against them. Not all mission designers use setSkill array everytime they make a mission.

[.kju 3244]

The UI is already there ;)

https://dev-heaven.net/issues/27851#note-6

[totalboffin 10]

bad wording on my side, i mean used as the ingame skill UI always changed it to 'other' value ...

mission makers should rely on http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/setSkill_array

More testing has shown that the above still does work to adjust accuracy and other settings.

Edited January 26, 2012 by totalboffin

[icebreakr 3156]

We used this "hack" via config since 2002(!) OFP days. It makes firefight BELIEVABLE.

AI is just too damn accurate with "vanilla" settings. For example if you remember Sahrani in A1, two small islands on NW. Friend and me picked two sniper rifles and attacked an AI group based across the channel nearly 1 click away. We though we will wipe 'em out easily... but as soon we fired a first shot we recieved two headshots(!) back from PKMs and AK47s. Not even sprayed but accurate shots. Funny, because AI shoots at torso center area, but not when you're lying down in grass over 1 click away, head gets in the way ;)

Carefully planned mission ended in merely seconds after firing a first shot. AI just knew exactly where we were ;)

Edited January 24, 2012 by IceBreakr

[lightspeed_aust 681]

I've been watching this thread for a while now and notice that a lot of ppl want bis to wind back to the old "broken" version bcoz they had worked out how to offset it to make it work.

I think we have to b careful when we say wind back to the old but in effect broken version, and move forward with bis devs trying to fix and improve game design. It might b painful at the moment but you should not stop improving or enhancing just bcoz it hurts during the transition phase. Big risk to future development in taking that approach.

[jedra 11]

I've been watching this thread for a while now and notice that a lot of ppl want bis to wind back to the old "broken" version bcoz they had worked out how to offset it to make it work.

I think we have to b careful when we say wind back to the old but in effect broken version, and move forward with bis devs trying to fix and improve game design. It might b painful at the moment but you should not stop improving or enhancing just bcoz it hurts during the transition phase. Big risk to future development in taking that approach.

Also, I would seriously recommend Robalo's ASR_AI as it uses the skills array and can be configured server side for the whole server or if used in the init.sqf it will work mission by mission. If you don't like all the other stuff it does (auto crate searching, group joining etc) then you can turn that off. It's also vanilla compliant (i.e you dont need ACE2).

[domokun 515]

I can't agree more with Lightspeed: the satisfaction of playing any simulator is heavily dictacted by the ability to suspend disbelief and one the major contributing factors is the credibility of our AI opponents. I think BIS did a great job seperating skill and accuracy for the AI. Essentially this allowed us users to easily (without installing mods) to vary our AI opponents to suit our different styles of play and skills.

Imagine that you're playing a mission that was designed for 24 players but there are only 4 of you. You still really like the mission so you start the mission and dial down the accuracy of your opponents. You know that their inaccuracy is unrealistic but you want enjoyment rather than realism.

So BIS please bring back:

a) a seperate parameter for AI skill and AI accuracy

b) preferably these parameters should be applicable dynamically via an in-game menu

I can't emphasis enough how important this is. Nothing ruins a gaming night more than spending an hour reaching an objective only to have the entire squad wiped out in less than a minute by a dozen, half-drunk, conscripts with rusty AKs from 500m away...

[icebreakr 3156]

^^ best. post. ever. Really nicely written if mine wasn't clear enough.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Lightspeed_aust & Jedra so you both are against better AI options, userfriendly GUI

just bcoz it hurts during the transition phase

And people should use addons/mods instead of getting things right + proper done in default/vanilla game by BIS? Really? :rolleyes:

BIS just need to make more consistent features and options instead of adding/cutting something here & there without thinking much about it.

[jedra 11]

Lightspeed_aust & Jedra so you both are against better AI options, userfriendly GUI

And people should use addons/mods instead of getting things right + proper done in default/vanilla game by BIS? Really? :rolleyes:

BIS just need to make more consistent features and options instead of adding/cutting something here & there without thinking much about it.

For me it's not about whether BIS fix it or not really - my point is that the skill matrix is already built in and there's a mod that makes use of it, so why not try it? At least until the matter is resolved one way or the other.

BIS have a history of changing stuff if a lot of people want it, so, if the ticket gets voted up and BIS fix this then that's democracy in action and I am more than happy with that. They are just about the only developers out there that do this so I'm not going to rock the boat!!

I just wanted to remind people that there's a alternative, if the game is currently broken for them.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Than why not making it userfriendly in the first place?

Less annoyance, more possibilties and no addon/mod dependency for all players...

BIS aren't the "holy devs of game developments" they have a history of breaking stuff that previously did work, they have a history of making inconsistent stuff and let the community take on issues/bugs. Most of their games were buggy right from the release. BIS can be very happy to have people that actually take care and provide workarounds (not alternatives!). Just imagine for a minute or longer what would be if all those people just stop fixing (or tweaking) stuff that they didn't made or broke. ;)

[Sleep 10]

Also, I would seriously recommend Robalo's ASR_AI as it uses the skills array and can be configured server side for the whole server or if used in the init.sqf it will work mission by mission. If you don't like all the other stuff it does (auto crate searching, group joining etc) then you can turn that off. It's also vanilla compliant (i.e you dont need ACE2).

This is by far the best solution. Just add the names of the units you use to the script and set them to use one of the presets written within the same script (its much easier than i made it sound there). Works like a charm and easily better than zues.

One thing about the picking up weapons tho, if you have civilians in a mission and enemies with weapons go down, the civvies will pick the weapon up. Lets just say our server is short a few civilian ai by the end of those missions.

[jedra 11]

One thing about the picking up weapons tho, if you have civilians in a mission and enemies with weapons go down, the civvies will pick the weapon up. Lets just say our server is short a few civilian ai by the end of those missions.

You can have re-arming on, and turn off the ability for civilians to re-arm;

[font=Consolas][size=2][color=#008000][font=Consolas][size=2][color=#008000][font=Consolas][size=2][color=#008000]/* Civilians will try to arm themselves */[/color][/size][/font]
[/color][/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][font=Consolas][size=2][font=Consolas][size=2]asr_ai_sys_airearming_civ = 0;[/size][/font]
[/size][/font]

Or, you might like to keep it on for kicks!

[Sleep 10]

Or, you might like to keep it on for kicks![/size][/font]

Hahha yea we've grown used to them picking them up and putting them on their back. Thanks, I'll change it tho bc it is annoying.

[lightspeed_aust 681]

@ NoRailGunner

Lightspeed_aust & Jedra so you both are against better AI options, userfriendly GUI

no this is not what im saying at all - I think the Devs should be always looking to improve and enhance the game. I would love to have a Skill and Precision slider available ingame as I'm writing missions.

And people should use addons/mods instead of getting things right + proper done in default/vanilla game by BIS? Really?

BIS just need to make more consistent features and options instead of adding/cutting something here & there without thinking much about it.

and I also don't think you should require an add-on to get realistic AI behaviour, skill and precision - it should all be present in Vanilla.

what i am saying though is that the previous system wasn't working properly either -but the players here seem to be asking the Devs to wind back that system bcoz they had figured out work around.

What I want to see is the Devs accepting that this change is obviously not ideal for players nor was the old so - continue to move forward (not backwards) to a proper solution. :) does that make sense?

[eggbeast 3673]

do you realize the precisionEnemy setting wasn't used ... it was just placebo effect...

what changed is the main skill setting value to actually work correctly (it was flawed where low values were actually worthless)

Suma explained the changes in great detail

all untrue D

precisionenemy worked fine in our server and now it doesnt since patch.

suma DID NOT explain the change in great detail!

check my post here

https://dev-heaven.net/issues/27851

asking suma to please explain the new formula (relationship between precision and skill) which has now gone unanswered for 7 days.

@ theother guys in this post trying to interpret our requests -

a) we would like to be able to turn down precision because it is absolutely overpowered in vanilla - without resorting to mods

b) this can be achieved EITHER by BIS developing it in to the next beta OR by clearly explaining HOW precision is now managed in relation to skill - this has not yet been explained. If it was, we could then recalibrate our server profiles and everyone would at least be reasonably happy and able to play the game with a lower skill setting.

if you read the start of this thread which I created - I'm asking a) is precisionenemy broken (which it now is) and b) how we calibrate the servers - please feed back your findings etc

[Sleep 10]

I hate to sound like a broken rcord here eggbeast, but just check out how ASR_AI does it. Heres the settings.hpp as we use them currently. Their aiming is a bit too off but it works great for firefights and even better large scale battles.

this is not our finished version but it works for what were doing right now.

/*
ASR AI settings
this file must be found in <game folder>\userconfig\asr_ai\
for most settings, 0 = disabled, 1 = enabled (default)
for each feature setting below to take effect,
it has to have the comment (//) lines removed
*/

asr_ai_sys_airearming_feature = 1;

/* Mission makers can control these features by setting these global variables in init.sqf
the asr_ai_sys_airearming_* settings matter only if asr_ai_sys_airearming_feature is 1 */

/* Enable rearming at mission start */
asr_ai_sys_airearming_run = 1;

/* Rearming search radius - how far will AI go to grab stuff */
asr_ai_sys_airearming_radius = 150;

/* Civilians will try to arm themselves */
asr_ai_sys_airearming_civ = 1;

/* Units will take handguns */
asr_ai_sys_airearming_sidearm = 1;

/* Units will take binoculars */
asr_ai_sys_airearming_binocs = 1;

/* List of secondary weapons that any unit may take.
Other launchers not in this list will only be picked by specialists */
asr_ai_sys_airearming_launchers = [
	"M136","RPG7V","RPG18","SMAW","MAAWS",
	"cwr2_AT4","cwr2_CarlGustav","cwr2_LAW","cwr2_RPG7","cwr2_RPG75",
	"ACE_M136_CSRS","ACE_RPG7V_PGO7","ACE_M72A2","ACE_M72","ACE_RPG22","ACE_RPG27","ACE_RPOM","ACE_RSHG1","ACE_RMG"
];

/* list of frag grenades that units will look for */
asr_ai_sys_airearming_grenades = [
	"HandGrenade_West","HandGrenade_East","HandGrenade","BAF_L109A1_HE",
	"ACE_DM51","ACE_DM51A1"
];

/* list of smoke grenades that units will look for */
asr_ai_sys_airearming_smokes = [
	"SmokeShell","SmokeShellGreen","SmokeShellRed","SmokeShellYellow","SmokeShellPurple","SmokeShellBlue","SmokeShellOrange",
	"ACE_M34","ACE_RDG2","ACE_RDGM","ACE_DM25","ACE_DM31","ACE_DM32","ACE_DM33","ACE_DM34","ACE_DM36","ACE_M15"
];


/* The asr_ai_sys_aiskill_* settings are only checked once and matter only if asr_ai_sys_aiskill_feature is 1 */
asr_ai_sys_aiskill_feature = 1;

/* AI groups share known enemy locations over radio */
asr_ai_sys_aiskill_radionet = 1;

/* Maximum range for radios */
asr_ai_sys_aiskill_radiorange = 700;

/* Spotting range night reduction coeficient */
asr_ai_sys_aiskill_nightspotting = 0.5;

/* Gunshot hearing range coeficient (applied to shooter's weapon sound range)
Set to 0 to disable this feature */
asr_ai_sys_aiskill_gunshothearing = 1;

/* Chance the AI group will search nearby buildings when in combat mode (0 to 1 values)
Set to 0 to disable this feature */
asr_ai_sys_aiskill_buildingsearching = 0.8;

/* AI throws smoke when hit */
asr_ai_sys_aiskill_throwsmoke = 1;

/* Dynamic dedicated server viewdistance adjustment */
asr_ai_sys_aiskill_serverdvd = 1;

/* Configure AI skills based on their unit type (faction, training etc.) */
asr_ai_sys_aiskill_setskills = 1;

/* By default skill levels between 1 and 10 are used;
8 and 9 are special skillsets for pilots, not so great infantry combat skills but good spotting
level 10 is also a special level for trained snipers
Defaults listed below, to change, simply edit the values: */

asr_ai_sys_aiskill_sets = [
/* 0 (perfect) */ ["aimingAccuracy",[1.00,0.00],"aimingShake",[1.00,0.00],"aimingSpeed",[1.00,0.00],"spotDistance",[1.00,0.00],"spotTime",[1.00,0.00],"general",[1.00,0.00]],
/* 1 (sf 1)    */ ["aimingAccuracy",[0.70,0.10],"aimingShake",[0.70,0.10],"aimingSpeed",[0.70,0.10],"spotDistance",[0.70,0.10],"spotTime",[0.70,0.10],"general",[0.80,0.20]],
/* 2 (sf 2)    */ ["aimingAccuracy",[0.60,0.10],"aimingShake",[0.60,0.10],"aimingSpeed",[0.60,0.10],"spotDistance",[0.60,0.10],"spotTime",[0.60,0.10],"general",[0.70,0.20]],
/* 3 (reg 1)   */ ["aimingAccuracy",[0.50,0.10],"aimingShake",[0.50,0.10],"aimingSpeed",[0.50,0.10],"spotDistance",[0.50,0.10],"spotTime",[0.50,0.10],"general",[0.60,0.20]],
/* 4 (reg 2)   */ ["aimingAccuracy",[0.40,0.10],"aimingShake",[0.40,0.10],"aimingSpeed",[0.40,0.10],"spotDistance",[0.40,0.10],"spotTime",[0.40,0.10],"general",[0.50,0.20]],
/* 5 (ins 1)   */ ["aimingAccuracy",[0.30,0.10],"aimingShake",[0.30,0.10],"aimingSpeed",[0.30,0.10],"spotDistance",[0.30,0.10],"spotTime",[0.30,0.10],"general",[0.40,0.20]],
/* 6 (ins 2)   */ ["aimingAccuracy",[0.20,0.10],"aimingShake",[0.20,0.10],"aimingSpeed",[0.20,0.10],"spotDistance",[0.20,0.10],"spotTime",[0.20,0.10],"general",[0.30,0.20]],
/* 7 (civ)     */ ["aimingAccuracy",[0.10,0.10],"aimingShake",[0.10,0.10],"aimingSpeed",[0.10,0.10],"spotDistance",[0.10,0.10],"spotTime",[0.10,0.10],"general",[0.20,0.20]],
/* 8 (pilot 1) */ ["aimingAccuracy",[0.30,0.10],"aimingShake",[0.30,0.10],"aimingSpeed",[0.30,0.10],"spotDistance",[0.70,0.10],"spotTime",[0.70,0.10],"general",[0.60,0.20]],
/* 9 (pilot 2) */ ["aimingAccuracy",[0.20,0.10],"aimingShake",[0.20,0.10],"aimingSpeed",[0.20,0.10],"spotDistance",[0.60,0.10],"spotTime",[0.60,0.10],"general",[0.50,0.20]],
/* 10 (sniper) */ ["aimingAccuracy",[0.90,0.10],"aimingShake",[0.90,0.10],"aimingSpeed",[0.90,0.10],"spotDistance",[0.90,0.10],"spotTime",[0.90,0.10],"general",[0.80,0.20]]
];

/* Add class names below to override their assigned skill set */

asr_ai_sys_aiskill_levels_units = [
/* 0 (perfect) */ [],
/* 1 (sf 1)    */ ["sf_18d","sf_18c","sf_18z","sf_18b","sf_18e","sf_18a","RUS_Soldier_Sab","RUS_Soldier_GL","RUS_Soldier_Marksman","RUS_Commander","RUS_Soldier1","RUS_Soldier2","RUS_Soldier3","RUS_Soldier_TL"],
/* 2 (sf 2)    */ ["ibr_mutant"],
/* 3 (reg 1)   */ ["bink_usmc_tl","bink_usmc_sl","bink_usmc_dmr","bink_usmc_scout","bink_usmc_scout_l","bink_usmc_tl_des","bink_usmc_sl_des","bink_usmc_dmr_des","bink_usmc_scout_des","bink_usmc_scout_l_des","rb_teamleader","RU_Soldier_HAT","RU_Soldier_AR","RU_Soldier_Crew","RU_Soldier_AA","RU_Commander","RU_Soldier_GL","RU_Soldier_MG","RU_Soldier_Marksman"," RU_Soldier_Medic","RU_Soldier_Officer","RU_Soldier_Pilot","RU_Soldier","RU_Soldier_LAT","RU_Soldier_AT","RU_Soldier2","RU_Soldier_Sniper","RU_Soldier_SniperH","RU_Soldier_Spotter","RU_Soldier_SL","RU_Soldier_TL","MVD_Soldier_MG","MVD_Soldier_Marksman","MVD_Soldier","MVD_Soldier_GL","MVD_Soldier_AT","MVD_Soldier_Sniper","MVD_Soldier_TL"],
/* 4 (reg 2)   */ ["ibr_bodyguard"],
/* 5 (ins 1)   */ ["ibr_arl_officer","ibr_arl_sniper","ibr_arl_sab","Ins_Soldier_Sab","Ins_Soldier_Sapper","Ins_Soldier_Sniper"],
/* 6 (ins 2)   */ ["ibr_rebel11","ibr_rebel83","ibr_rebel111","ibr_rebel125","ibr_rebel132","ibr_rebel145","ibr_rebel151","ibr_arl_rif","ibr_arl_rif2","ibr_arl_mg","ibr_arl_ar","ibr_arl_at","ibr_arl_aa","ibr_arl_crew","ibr_arl_medic","ibr_drg_man1","Ins_Soldier_AT","Ins_Soldier_AR","Ins_Lopotev","Ins_Commander","Ins_Soldier_Crew","","Ins_Soldier_GL","Ins_Bardak","Ins_Soldier_MG","Ins_Soldier_Medic","Ins_Soldier_CO","Ins_Soldier_Pilot","Ins_Soldier_1","Ins_Soldier_2","Ins_Soldier_Sab","Ins_Soldier_Sapper","Ins_Soldier_Sniper","Ins_Villager3","Ins_Woodlander3","Ins_Woodlander2","Ins_Worker2","Ins_Villager4","Ins_Woodlander1"
  ],
/* 7 (civ)     */ ["ibr_arl_stoner1"],
/* 8 (pilot 1) */ [],
/* 9 (pilot 2) */ ["ibr_arl_pilot"],
/* 10 (sniper) */ []
];

hope fully this helps, I promise it works much better also :cool:

[domokun 515]

@eggbeast: I and others are well aware of Robalo's ASR AI mod (in fact I've been closely following it's development from the start) and its efficiency (I use it in all my missions).

We are simply expressing our concern that an element as fundamental as AI accuracy and skill is apparently broken.

The fact that a solution has been developed by a third party, though welcome, is not a real subsistute.

Moreover, AFAIK, ASR does not allow users to vary AI accuracy/skill on the fly via an in-game GUI.

Essentially I think that fixing AI accuracy/skill is far more important than other features that are undoubtly under development by BIS.

[sickboy 13]

@Eggbeast, what more of the formula do you believe there is to explain beyond what Suma already explained? https://dev-heaven.net/issues/27851#note-2

So the answer to B) How to tweak it now, seems to be: By lowering the skill, e.g 0.5.

Or by using scripts (setSkill array), or configs (see ASR_AI etc).

[icebreakr 3156]

Crap, so the solution is to change tweak/edit around 200+ missions? Just great... fixing one of rare things that wasn't even broken.

[sickboy 13]

Crap, so the solution is to change tweak/edit around 200+ missions? Just great... fixing one of rare things that wasn't even broken.

How so?

• Skill can be overall adjusted in the arma2oaprofile.
  
• setSkill scripting command can be used in an addon and applied to all or specific units.
  
• ASR_AI addon with configuration files is available so you can tweak things easily.
  
• ACE has everything tweaked towards realism/authenticity, including AI (But I suppose you still need to put a techy on the linux server issues with many mods+missions)
  
• Worst case scenario; install back a 1.59beta and enjoy the aiPrecision ability, but loose the other 1.60 enhancements. Perhaps until it makes its return.
  

Plenty of options, none involve editing missions, and these are just off the top of my head.

Lastly these are just things you can do right now, as workaround or permanent, but there's still no final word on if the Precision setting will make it's return, and how.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Sickboy