fabrizio_t 58 Posted October 16, 2011 (edited) I think the fixes within the latest 2-3 beta builds are another step into the right direction. Sure bullet damage tweaks change gameplay quite a lot, but even with some concerns it's a welcome change to me. AI vs. AI wise combat effectiveness has definetely improved in my test. Units skill is starting to show some effect on the battlefield. Of course firefights are now in average shorter due to higher lethality, that meaning lower accuracy settings may be needed to arrange things. There are still many things i would see tweaked/fixed with infantry AI, my top 5 being: * incoming fire detection / reaction: AI is completely unable to detect (see, hear) incoming fire from distance. It should be able to hear shots / to see nearby bullets impact and it should change stance / move away accordingly. This may be modded (it is taxing), but i think that's a core feature deserving a proper fix by BIS. * AA/AT weapons: in a infantry vs. infantry scenario, AI units keep switching to AT and back for no reason (no vehicles around). * CQB: units still tend not to fire quickly onto nearby known threats. I think the problem it's related to how the danger.fsm related "CAN FIRE" event is handled: seems to me some pretty high timeout is preventing AI from (re-)detecting known threats coming back into line of sight. * cover: AI units do stick into cover behind many objects, couching and/or peeking. Problem is they don't go prone anymore when suppressed. It would be minor, except for the fact AI units use as cover fences and other stuff not giving any kind of protection. Also metallic fences are still treated as "hard" cover and AI is being shot in the back when "hiding" behind them. Pretty sad. * withdrawal: AI units may individually flee, but they are unable to quickly withdraw as a group from the field, which is quite a limitation on the tactical side. Edited October 16, 2011 by fabrizio_T Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoRailgunner 0 Posted October 16, 2011 AI still switching to AT during infantry battles how to see just place yourself and a russian squad and fire some shots at them observed RPG18 unit is switching to AT, aims, switches back to rifle, switch again to RPG18... expected default AI should only switch to (and fire) launcher at infantry if the AT launcher is loaded with fragmentation grenade/rocket eg OG7, HEDP otherwise these units should use their rifles (primary weapon) AI is sticking to close to each other in open terrain/non CQB battles how to see place at least two platoons (2 or 3 squads) against each other, you=observer observed AI dont spread out, instead they keep too close together (remember the OFP Ambush mission - "I dont want to see one grenade take out half of my squad..." ;)) expected in open terrain AI should be able to keep their intervalls (distance) to each other, perhaps a "AI CQB module" could help for town battles and city fights. other AI related things - AI should increase the use of suppressing fire from 2 or 3 units + maneuvre/move with the rest of the team/group - AI should cover each other and use terrain/objects for retreat/withdrawal - AIs within a team/group should cover their arcs instead of circling around or watching only in one direction (in aware, danger and stealth behaviour). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted October 16, 2011 AI still switching to AT during infantry battleshow to see just place yourself and a russian squad and fire some shots at them observed RPG18 unit is switching to AT, aims, switches back to rifle, switch again to RPG18... expected default AI should only switch to (and fire) launcher at infantry if the AT launcher is loaded with fragmentation grenade/rocket eg OG7, HEDP otherwise these units should use their rifles (primary weapon) ^this AI shouldn´t use its launchers only on vehicels. But if they are equiped with fragmentation grenades, then they should use them on enemy groups Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kremator 1065 Posted October 16, 2011 I think the fixes within the latest 2-3 beta builds are another step into the right direction. Sure bullet damage tweaks change gameplay quite a lot, but even with some concerns it's a welcome change to me.AI vs. AI wise combat effectiveness has definetely improved in my test. Units skill is starting to show some effect on the battlefield. Of course firefights are now in average shorter due to higher lethality, that meaning lower accuracy settings may be needed to arrange things. There are still many things i would see tweaked/fixed with infantry AI, my top 5 being: * incoming fire detection / reaction: AI is completely unable to detect (see, hear) incoming fire from distance. It should be able to hear shots / to see nearby bullets impact and it should change stance / move away accordingly. This may be modded (it is taxing), but i think that's a core feature deserving a proper fix by BIS. * AA/AT weapons: in a infantry vs. infantry scenario, AI units keep switching to AT and back for no reason (no vehicles around). * CQB: units still tend not to fire quickly onto nearby known threats. I think the problem it's related to how the danger.fsm related "CAN FIRE" event is handled: seems to me some pretty high timeout is preventing AI from (re-)detecting known threats coming back into line of sight. * cover: AI units do stick into cover behind many objects, couching and/or peeking. Problem is they don't go prone anymore when suppressed. It would be minor, except for the fact AI units use as cover fences and other stuff not giving any kind of protection. Also metallic fences are still treated as "hard" cover and AI is being shot in the back when "hiding" behind them. Pretty sad. * withdrawal: AI units may individually flee, but they are unable to quickly withdraw as a group from the field, which is quite a limitation on the tactical side. Hey Fabrizio, Just stick a ticket up at DevHeaven and I'm sure we'd vote for all of those for sure ! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
.kju 3245 Posted October 16, 2011 (edited) It would be a simple config fix: Bug #23425: AI uses AT launcher (rockets) also vs AI But only 5 votes.. You can find other AI issues =status_id&op[status_id]=o&v[status_id][]=1&f[]=author_id&op[author_id]=%3D&v[author_id][]=me&f[]=category_id&op[category_id]=%3D&v[category_id][]=151&f[]=&c[]=tracker&c[]=status&c[]=priority&c[]=subject&c[]=author&c[]=assigned_to&c[]=updated_on&c[]=category&c[]=fixed_version&c[]=votes_value&group_by="]here. Edited October 16, 2011 by .kju [PvPscene] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
msy 22 Posted October 16, 2011 (edited) It would be a simple config fix:Bug #23425: AI uses AT launcher (rockets) also vs AI But only 5 votes.. You can find other AI issues =status_id&op[status_id]=o&v[status_id][]=1&f[]=author_id&op[author_id]=%3D&v[author_id][]=me&f[]=category_id&op[category_id]=%3D&v[category_id][]=151&f[]=&c[]=tracker&c[]=status&c[]=priority&c[]=subject&c[]=author&c[]=assigned_to&c[]=updated_on&c[]=category&c[]=fixed_version&c[]=votes_value&group_by="]here. It seems like to be similar to AI tank not knowing to use HE to engage soldiers. Maybe ammo config should add a definition to let AI know in what situation a kind of ammo is proper. Yesterday I noticed my AI AT soldier resolutely use MAAWS to engage infantries 400m away and he use both his two rockets to kill some targets. Edited October 16, 2011 by msy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fabrizio_t 58 Posted October 16, 2011 (edited) Hey Fabrizio,Just stick a ticket up at DevHeaven and I'm sure we'd vote for all of those for sure ! many problems can be easily spotted if you patiently look at what happens in whatever mission, but due to randomic nature makes quite hard creating a working repro. However here is one: AI infantry units not moving into nearby cover when threatened http://dev-heaven.net/issues/25543 This shows AI not willing to go into cover, just sticking into position. Please run repro and -if you can reproduce- then please vote. Edited October 16, 2011 by fabrizio_T Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted October 16, 2011 It seems like to be similar to AI tank not knowing to use HE to engage soldiers. Maybe ammo config should add a definition to let AI know in what situation a kind of ammo is proper. Yesterday I noticed my AI AT soldier resolutely use MAAWS to engage infantries 400m away and he use both his two rockets to kill some targets. The problem with the tanks is fixed in ACE. Tanks engage Inf. with HE and Frag Shells (Tanks become scary again ). BIS should make this the default behaviour Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
msy 22 Posted October 16, 2011 (edited) The problem with the tanks is fixed in ACE. Tanks engage Inf. with HE and Frag Shells (Tanks become scary again ). BIS should make this the default behaviour I haven't played ACE for a time. But it sounds great. I will download the 1.12 version to have a try. Hope BIS can make this effect in the game. Edited October 16, 2011 by msy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fabrizio_t 58 Posted October 16, 2011 Here is a second ticket: AI infantry does not react properly on being under fire from range http://dev-heaven.net/issues/25544 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kremator 1065 Posted October 16, 2011 Voted on all of them .... come on the rest of you :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fabrizio_t 58 Posted October 16, 2011 Voted on all of them .... come on the rest of you :) Yes, but please always run the repro, do not vote blindly. We need to be sure the issues are reproduceable for everybody. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
On_Sabbatical 11 Posted October 16, 2011 it's really frustating when you see your AI spending their expensive smaw HEAA bullets on inf,and get killed right after because they're reloading :D Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kremator 1065 Posted October 16, 2011 Don't worry Fabrizio .... I do see these problems and therefore voted. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
.kju 3245 Posted October 16, 2011 Bug #23017: AI gunner is unable to use secondary/multiple magazines of a weapon (like SABOT/HEAT) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CarlGustaffa 4 Posted October 16, 2011 Personal liking regarding the lenght of engeaments can easily be tweaked in user.cfg. No it doesn't affect length of engagements because our shots are that more effective because we are super accurate. Compensating for that by increasing AI accuracy does not increase firefight time. Again, look at youtube footage, and guess how many rounds actually find its target. I don't expect full realism here, only that it was made better. Its up to the mission builders to include more weapons with iron sights. ACOGs are pretty much standard issue these days. Although I limit access to them in my own missions, not to be an ass, but to have purpose for snipers and marksmen where distant turkey shooting with 5.56 seems like waste of ammo. Assault rifles should not have the same capabilities as battle rifles. The problem is that we can engage AI not only beyond their fighting capability range, but now also be effective at it. There is no point in bringing up a 12.7 vehicle to do the job, or a marksman, when everybody is this efficient with 5.56. Our normal rifles are for personal self defense (when things get tight or for light suppression), they're not guns, LMG excluded as they are considered a squad/team gun. Of course firefights are now in average shorter due to higher lethality, that meaning lower accuracy settings may be needed to arrange things. Again, this may work with AI vs AI, but in pure Coops where mission maker could limit human distance turkey shoot capabilities by giving them 5.56, it's now a slaughter instead. I just single handedly (SP game) killed 3 squads of 9 units each with my SAW on Utes (it was a stupid mission, I admit, but too bad results nonetheless), with 23 (default loadout) bullets left. The AI inabilities have to be balanced somehow. 5.56 is supposed to feel inadequate at the distances we typically engage it, according to real life soldier experiences. But it doesn't. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted October 16, 2011 Simple solution: Increase AI spotting and engagement distance like it is done in ACE. It gets tougher to hit if the enemy is further away. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fabrizio_t 58 Posted October 16, 2011 Don't worry Fabrizio .... I do see these problems and therefore voted. Ty ;) ---------- Post added at 05:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:33 PM ---------- Simple solution: Increase AI spotting and engagement distance like it is done in ACE. It gets tougher to hit if the enemy is further away. Normally doing that you hinder stealth capabilities. Hard to get a perfect balance. ---------- Post added at 05:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:34 PM ---------- No it doesn't affect length of engagements because our shots are that more effective because we are super accurate. Compensating for that by increasing AI accuracy does not increase firefight time. Again, look at youtube footage, and guess how many rounds actually find its target. I don't expect full realism here, only that it was made better.ACOGs are pretty much standard issue these days. Although I limit access to them in my own missions, not to be an ass, but to have purpose for snipers and marksmen where distant turkey shooting with 5.56 seems like waste of ammo. Assault rifles should not have the same capabilities as battle rifles. The problem is that we can engage AI not only beyond their fighting capability range, but now also be effective at it. There is no point in bringing up a 12.7 vehicle to do the job, or a marksman, when everybody is this efficient with 5.56. Our normal rifles are for personal self defense (when things get tight or for light suppression), they're not guns, LMG excluded as they are considered a squad/team gun. Again, this may work with AI vs AI, but in pure Coops where mission maker could limit human distance turkey shoot capabilities by giving them 5.56, it's now a slaughter instead. I just single handedly (SP game) killed 3 squads of 9 units each with my SAW on Utes (it was a stupid mission, I admit, but too bad results nonetheless), with 23 (default loadout) bullets left. The AI inabilities have to be balanced somehow. 5.56 is supposed to feel inadequate at the distances we typically engage it, according to real life soldier experiences. But it doesn't. I understand your point, but i think the solution shouldn't be "artificially" strengthening units. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maturin 12 Posted October 16, 2011 No it doesn't affect length of engagements because our shots are that more effective because we are super accurate. Compensating for that by increasing AI accuracy does not increase firefight time. Again, look at youtube footage, and guess how many rounds actually find its target. I don't expect full realism here, only that it was made better. That's not because the NATO soldiers are incredibly inaccurate, it's because the enemy is in cover and there isn't actually line of sight between the two sides. They are firing at positions because the Taliban have (nearly) human intelligence and always fight from cover or concealment. If they waddled around in the open like ArmA AI (it is, by the way, impossible to code them to use cover as effectively and consistently as a human), they would be slaughtered as well. Play against humans to mimic firefights like the ones on youtube. The AI are better at human wave attacks and furious CQB. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alwarren 2767 Posted October 16, 2011 Having an issue pop up here but I cannot reproduce the circumstances. We were playing "Hike in the Hills" in multiplayer. At the end of the mission, when we get ordered to return to base, one of the team refused to enter the car. He would just stand there and do nothing. The only thing he accepted was "get in as driver", "ride in back" would not work. First we thought it was a gltich, but then we played "Search and Destroy" and one of our guys refused to enter the APC. Today, the same issue on HitH, although it worked in SaD. I thought it was because I ordered the team to "stay alert" first, while they were still in automatic danger mode earlier. However, trying that in a repro mission didn't work. Anyone else noticed something like that, or was it just a glitch? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OMAC 254 Posted October 16, 2011 We were playing "Hike in the Hills" in multiplayer. At the end of the mission, when we get ordered to return to base, one of the team refused to enter the car. He would just stand there and do nothing. The only thing he accepted was "get in as driver", "ride in back" would not work. I noticed that in HitH SP yesterday. One guy wouldn't enter Hummer, and scenario would not end. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nyles 11 Posted October 16, 2011 Carl, the last few hours I played have been extremely fun with the latest changes in my opinion. I would consider myself an average player and I had good fun with my AK74 with PSO. It still took some extra hits here and there to take enemies down so it was definitely not fire and forget. Overall it felt a lot more satisfying however with less WTF moments, where enemies would be hit again and again without dying only to kill you in one shot in return. This is fantastic and a great improvement. Out of a sudden, you really consider buying an assault rifle over a battle rifle or sniper in Warfare games, because they are much more effective on average combat distances than before. Previously, the advantage in ammo capacity was totally negated by the lousy damage. This is no longer the case. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
.kju 3245 Posted October 17, 2011 @ Alwarren + OMAC Made a ticket for you two: Bug #25574: AI has troubles boarding ground vehicles Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alwarren 2767 Posted October 17, 2011 @ Alwarren + OMACMade a ticket for you two: Bug #25574: AI has troubles boarding ground vehicles Thanks. I would have made the ticket, but wasn't sure that there was an issue. Thanks OMAC for confirming it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OMAC 254 Posted October 17, 2011 I replied to the ticket that I will test again thoroughly now (SP). I wasn't sure about the problem, either. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
