The trouble with getting people into Arma

[metalcraze 290]

I don't believe the control system or the realistic gameplay elements are an obstacle for most newbies

I see you are new around here. So you've missed all that those threads "zomg why doesn't it play like BF2?! Make weapons and soldiers behave like in BF2!!" that are posted like every month after BIS releases another game/expansion/DLC

And only if those were newbs. We have people who were around for a year who complain that they can't have CQB like in Battlefield or CoD - in fact people believe that ArmA movement and weapon handling are a result of bugs that need to be fixed, not the design decision.

It shouldn't require noobs to install the ACE and ZeusAI mods, those features should already be included. ARMA straight out of the box is never going to impress newbies, simple as that.

Actually if those two were included by default newbs wouldn't be able to play the game for longer than 10 minutes without ragequitting since their ArmA game would instantly become 10x times harder and complex.

[djfluffwug 10]

I think what really puts people off is a lack of default missions available.

(As discussed previously)

I have had several friends play ArmA 2 and only 1 of them still plays it with me.

What really put most of them off is the lack of completed polished missions available to them.

While I think it is important to keep the style gameplay of ArmA, it should also be expanded out to some of the more mainstream game modes.

For example, TDM, Capture The Flag, DM, Search and Destroy etc.

While I realise most of these currently exist in the game, they feel unfinished and glitchy.

I think they don't work as well due to the CQC side of the game which brings me to my next section that puts people off.

Now, I think what really screws up the CQC in ArmA is 2 things:

1. Collision Issues

2. Controlling Clunkyness

Collision Issues

I am sure most of you are familiar with the collision issues ArmA has. It really needs to be improved. Falling through the walls of buildings, bending backwards suddenly when your gun hits a random collision anomaly, Getting stuck inside walls & objects or rubble, getting stuck on steps, taking 5 minutes just to navigate through a door and many other noticeable issues.

It really needs to be patched up for some smoother gameplay. It puts alot of people off seeing this happen.

Controlling Clunkyness

Now I realise that ArmA is very advanced in terms of the amount of freedom a player is given and that makes controls more complex.

But, I feel as if when I am playing, just to control a team requires many button presses and looking back and forward between the keyboard.

A step to making the game controls more fluid would be to add a radial menu (As stated previously). This will then simplify the controlling alot.

Mostly due to not having to look back and forward between the keyboard and screen. Also, the gear menu controls should be improved.

I am sure many have noticed but it gets hard finding the gun you want when you have to scroll down a massive list of equipment and various items.

I think the items should be broken up into seperate categories (Main Weapon, Sidearm, Tactical Equipment, Outfits Etc.) to break down the masses of items randomly spread across the gear menu. It would also really help new people collect their gear easily.

Also, I see this happening all the time on servers: Players standing around near a vehicle running furiously for five minutes, shooting someone then disconnecting.

This is mostly due to the trouble they have finding out how to get into a vehicle. Now, this is not really a control issue, but a lack of being taught properly about how to do such activities. We need to have improved tutorials so the players can be eased into the style of ArmA. As many have stated, OA was a step in the right direction.

But what I think will make it alot better is to have tutorials with audio narration and very basic information showing what objective is needed to proceed. (Proceed to the guns range)

So I could go on forever but that is my ideas :D

[nodunit 397]

Also, I see this happening all the time on servers: Players standing around near a vehicle running furiously for five minutes, shooting someone then disconnecting.

This is mostly due to the trouble they have finding out how to get into a vehicle. Now, this is not really a control issue, but a lack of being taught properly about how to do such activities.

You mean how they have to run to the correct part of the vehicle IE the door/drive door to get in rather than say pressing E on the trunk or hood and being directed to driver or passenger by the number of people currently in?

[tk1138 10]

honestly i dont see what all the problem is even after i never had any of the problems that many describe here...maybe its just that the majority of the public are idiots...maybe its cuz i have experience in flight simulators and spending hours reading and researching the aspects of the game is not a foreign concept for me (or reading or researching on anything that i involve my self in, because im not a moron)

the commanding system is easy and once i found the need to use it, i figured it out quickly...and i figured this part out mostly on my own through trial and error (a favorite video game learning technique of mine) this game is pretty much fine as it is...other than the delay between moving that someone mentioned...the only thing that would make this game better is more realism, including many of the features that the mod community has implemented...This and making the game more performance friendly would make this game unstoppable....

those who advocate dumbing down (something that seems to be prevalent in our schools, especially college) the game will be doing a disservice to themselves and others...if someone does not want to or is unable to take the time to learn the game i have no pity for them...

please do not make this game any more accessible....please dont disrespect the current users by dumbing the game down to make it more accessible for the average person...if someone wants to play this game they must wake up from their stupor and exert some effort in doing something....

[djfluffwug 10]

@NodUnit

Well, I am just talking about the whole system of getting in and out of vehicles. Since many people are used to the arcade style way you described there, they jump into ArmA and have absolutely no idea what to do since E isn't working :p

So, I think that the tutorials should include basic area's like that with audio narration to make it more clear to the new players.

[Gunter Severloh 4054]

I think what really puts people off is a lack of default missions available.

(As discussed previously)

I have had several friends play ArmA 2 and only 1 of them still plays it with me.

What really put most of them off is the lack of completed polished missions available to them.

Whats wrong with these:

Arma2 - http://www.armaholic.com/list.php?c=arma2_files_scenarios

Arma2OA - http://www.armaholic.com/list.php?c=arma2_oa_files_scenarios

as well as the editor?

I think they don't work as well due to the CQC side of the game which brings me to my next section that puts people off.

Now, I think what really screws up the CQC in ArmA is 2 things:

1. Collision Issues

Mod for collision:

http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=12540

Also, I see this happening all the time on servers: Players standing around near a vehicle running furiously for five minutes, shooting someone then disconnecting.

This is mostly due to the trouble they have finding out how to get into a vehicle.

If a vehicle is locked you wont be able to get in, if you can enter then it should show up in the action menu.

What must be considered is that as has been sad several times in the past years on the forums here, is to familiarize yourself with the game and controls before you jump into MP, I really dont understand how or why that so hard to do.

Its like those new guys just get the game installed and want to play right off the bat and then start typing in chat to everyone asking how do you do this or that, that to me is the players own dam fault for not getting themselves informed and familiarized.

and to be noted this is not a game to just jump in and play, as we all know it has simulation quality properties to it, and anyone with half a brain should realize that you simply cannot jump into a game and play, you either know the default controls, or customize them accordingly.

To me one of the best ways to know how the controls work is follow the tutorials in the scenarios, or jump in the editor and start shooting and moving around.

[djfluffwug 10]

@Günter Severloh

Nothing is wrong with them :D In fact, some of the best missions available are on armaholic. And yes, the editor is great for making missions but I am referring to the vanilla ArmA 2 missions made available. (Sorry, should have noted that a bit better)

The ones that come with ArmA always feel half finished.

As for collision, I was also referring to the default collision in the game.

New people would much rather have good collision included in the game than have to download a mod for it.

And lastly, all I was saying is that there should be more tutorials available for that kind of stuff! Your absolutely right that ArmA isn't a game to just jump into.

So that is why I thought that ArmA 3 should have improved tutorials so people don't just jump in and go "WTF E NOT WORK ENTER VEHICLE".

A fully voice narrated tutorial set so the new people can really get an understanding of the game.

[Gunter Severloh 4054]

I understand, but I knew what you referring too, as i said theres other missions as well.

I think new players should really find out what their getting into when it comes to the Arma series as this game aint like no other game with similar FPS features.

I also think the demo for the game should at least be updated to the latest version we have unless it already has been,

as some folks when they play the demo get a good impression that this is the final product or at least close to it,

even though we only know its just a small taste of what the gameplay is like.

[Cripsis 10]

I see you are new around here.

Iv'e been observing these forums for years, it's only since the recent announcement that ARMA3 will be using PhysX that I have felt the urge to contribute. I firmly beleive that PhysX technology will add a new dimension to gameplay so I'd like to share my opinions based on my experiences of playing OFP and ARMA.

[tk1138 10]

Whats wrong with these:

Arma2 - http://www.armaholic.com/list.php?c=arma2_files_scenarios

Arma2OA - http://www.armaholic.com/list.php?c=arma2_oa_files_scenarios

as well as the editor?

Mod for collision:

http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=12540

If a vehicle is locked you wont be able to get in, if you can enter then it should show up in the action menu.

What must be considered is that as has been sad several times in the past years on the forums here, is to familiarize yourself with the game and controls before you jump into MP, I really dont understand how or why that so hard to do.

Its like those new guys just get the game installed and want to play right off the bat and then start typing in chat to everyone asking how do you do this or that, that to me is the players own dam fault for not getting themselves informed and familiarized.

and to be noted this is not a game to just jump in and play, as we all know it has simulation quality properties to it, and anyone with half a brain should realize that you simply cannot jump into a game and play, you either know the default controls, or customize them accordingly.

To me one of the best ways to know how the controls work is follow the tutorials in the scenarios, or jump in the editor and start shooting and moving around.

why cant you just jump in and play this is exactly what i did with the free version and i seemed to have learned alot faster than most...nothing was hard about this...i was playing online with my laptop open with what ever information i needed...the best way to learn is by actually doing, or trying...

[Gunter Severloh 4054]

I get what your saying and agree with you.

But then again not everyone can just jump in the game and be alright.

Theres more complex issues revolving around the general aspect of the game.

- those being the controls,

- those being how the controls are executed be it commanding AI, or just general actions,

and

- those of missions to play.

The editing and modding aspect of the game are a whole another world attached to the general view of the game.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Gnter Severloh

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Well a visual radial menu system wouldn't take any more time to punch in, because it's the same system as the numerical one.

Radials to have any purpose would have to be consistent. Actions [6] and Targets [2] menus change wildly and are extremely awkward to get working well in a radial based GUI.

Anyhow, the best radial compass menu designs I've ever worked with are those in Realsoft3D. You just hold a qualifier key, RMB drag to open the compass, and let go at the item you want. And it's consistent in its use; editing sds objects you can switch between face/edge/point, while editing nurbs you can switch between edge/point where direction for face is not applicable. It supports up to 16 slots using two rings of 8 slots each, and there is a whole bunch of them. Naturally you can select same actions using binded hotkeys, regular buttons, context sensitive buttons, or even menu selections, but for the stuff you do a lot of - simply put; nothing beats this compass design. It is fast as hell to use, and more importantly, to learn.

So i.e. a dedicated (can be customized of course) compass for formations, you can put line formation to the north, being a relatively offensive formation. That way, even before the motorics haven't catched up yet, you know where to look. Compared to the list format where I still have to read many of the lines before I find what I'm looking for.

Although it's only an SDS example, you can see the compass in action (if ever so slightly) in

, or grab a demo of it from the download page here.

I'm not sure if even the best compass in the world will solve all our problems, but it would be worth a try. I might not use compass for everything, and sometimes a compass designed as a list, rectangular shape, or diamond shape, would make more sense than a radial shape.

But two things are needed for us to experiment with it:

1) The mouse capturing event combined with qualifier key, and letting go to select.

2) Access to low level commands which are now only available using the number menu system.

[codycody44 10]

you know there is a detailed tutorial on getting into vehicles so saying new people can't figure out how to get into vehicles is kinda dumb to be honest and if someone can't figure out where to find the keybindings/controls or try the tutorial first before playing the game.. or even give up before even looking for these things. i honestly don't want that kinda person in arma at all. so figuring out the controls isn't the problem, everything you need to know is available before even playing the game. it's probably how it's presented and how the UI is a bit jumbled and.. tell the truth... can you compare the ballistics in arma to a game like oooh call of duty people are used to there bullets hitting the person they are aiming at the concept of arma it's self and the way you enjoy arma is for a smaller audience. it's a combat simulator or military simulator. whatever term you want to use. i can't imagine many people who play COD or other generic games that involve military anything would enjoy arma like we do or at all. but yes making improvements to make the game more accessible will help to keep people to stay and bring a bit more people in who may realize this is exactly the kind of thing they have been looking for. now does there really need to be a continuing argument on why people don't find arma attractive or why they leave arma after a couple months and i hope this can make it obvious why.. sure people will buy the game but it's not something just the average guy alone can enjoy

[Cripsis 10]

now does there really need to be a continuing argument on why people don't find arma attractive or why they leave arma after a couple months

Nobody's arguing, it's a civil discussion, and I for one am very curious about other peoples veiws on this topic, some interesting comments have been posted.

[katipo66 94]

I get what your saying and agree with you.

But then again not everyone can just jump in the game and be alright.

Theres more complex issues revolving around the general aspect of the game.

- those being the controls,

- those being how the controls are executed be it commanding AI, or just general actions,

and

- those of missions to play.

I think thats a myth, sure learning all of the controls and commanding AI is a little bit of a learning curve but not enough to say "Bah, screw this".

Im sure Most FPS players can pick it up quite easily, maybe commanding AI is a bit more of a challenge but not so hard it would turn people away.

Arma plays like any other game, move, select weapon, aim, shoot.... once you figure out how to select AI then its just memorizing action keys, maybe the point there is.. do people want to micro manage AI? i know i find it a pain the times i do, its feels unnatural and cumbersome as they require lots of baby sitting so prefer not too, not because its hard, because its a chore.

Some want it to be a Milsim (only:confused:), some want it to be a game... some want it to be somewhere in between, the cool thing is, it can be all of those without taking away from each other.

[x3kj 1247]

do people want to micro manage AI?

The people that just want to shoot and pwn everything alone certainly don't want.

And the AI controls are not really straight forward. How do you command a helicopter pilot around? You have to tell him to disembark in order to land, then order him back into the vehicle. If i wouldnt have watched a video tutorial on how to do that i wouldn't even known that you could get him to land at all.

Also getting your AI to move like you want in urban territory is not easy. I order someone into a certain position, yet he walks to a completely different place. And finally, your AI refuses orders until it thinks that there are no enemys anymore. Having to wait 2min until the AI decides that it is now safe to enter your vehicle is just frustrating, nothing else.

If i wasnt a fan of Arma's big sandbox openess thing and sim aspects i would have ditched it tbh. I'm a fan of sandbox/ open world games in general, the lack of guidance is what makes it interesting for me. For others that's completely the opposite, if no one tells them what to do,where to go, they are lost, and lose interest.

[hellfire257 3]

I found out how to do stuff by trying it. Nobody helped me "back in the day".

[ajax420 0]

Coop has ruined the game as far as I can tell. I just don't play like I used too cause every time I start the game no matter the time or day and all it is is Coop games by the hundreds (all playing the same f-ing style game). I really hate playing against AI with militant nerds on my side. Just want to gun and have fun in the wonderful world of Arma but do it against real people. If Arma 3 has no PvP push behind it it will end up with the exect same amount of people playing the current Arma2 right now. Anyone new might pick it up and install it but as soon as they try to play online.... Game gets shelved.

Anyone new will just go to B3 or something... At least on the other games you're fighting real people. It doesn't take hours and hours to learn how to play, and then when you do you go online to play and find only coop servers all running virtually the same mission with most of the servers running any number of various addons that keep you from joining the server anyway.

The bottom line! Coop ruined this awesome game!

I await this tread being closed due to any negative talk about Coop. Or just having my post removed by the Kings of the Forum, cause all they play is coop apparently and want it no other way.

Edited October 2, 2011 by AJAX420

[Cripsis 10]

I found out how to do stuff by trying it. Nobody helped me "back in the day".

That's the best way to learn. I love experimenting in the mission editor and testing out different mods, but unfortunately for a lot of newbies it challenges their patience trying to figure out how to get ARMA to play at it's full potential.

I'm convinced that most noobs give up on ARMA rather quickly simply because they are confused about how to install the best mods. My advice to BIS would be to place all the most popular mod features straight into ARMA3 Vanilla, basically just cut-out the hassle so people can jump straight into the good stuff that makes ARMA so addictive.

[metalcraze 290]

I have had several friends play ArmA 2 and only 1 of them still plays it with me.

So what?

What's with these recent comments "I've asked 10 people to play ArmA and only one liked it! The game has a problem, the game must be changed!"?

Not all games must be for people who just want to float through corridors, crying "lolz pwnzoor".

The weapon in ArmA is not just a tool for you to score frags with hitscan. It's a real object present in the hands of your soldier (which also carries some weight) and of course moving through tight corridors with M16 is not comfortable. It's just a different kind of game.

Coop has ruined the game as far as I can tell. I just don't play like I used too cause every time I start the game no matter the time or day and all it is is Coop games by the hundreds (all playing the same f-ing style game).

Show me at least a single open public server playing COOP.

Domination isn't COOP. It's just a bunch of people playing shooting range with AI

If Arma 3 has no PvP push behind it it will end up with the exect same amount of people playing the current Arma2 right now.

If you feel there are not enough PvP servers you are always free to launch one. Nobody stops people from playing PvP. FBI won't fly in black choppers to force you to play Domination instead of PvP

And a little Bro-tip: BIS won't force people to play PvP either.

Edited October 2, 2011 by metalcraze

[Baff1 0]

I buy games to play with my friends.

If they don't want to play them with me, then I play other games that they do instead.

Having spent a little extra thought, I´m not sure I like the prospect of a game-i-fied arma...

The toybox is what I enjoy tremendously.

Just the stock content needs to be a lot tighter than it´s been before. OFP was so good because it delivered a working, enjoyable campaign with some really memorable missions: they were simple at times, but very effective.

So I actually enjoy hearing from the team that they´re not going to do hundreds of billions of vehicles this time, instead trying to make what they have as best as they can.

less. is. more.

For me, the toybox factor is a big part of the game.

It's the part that gives the game much added replayability.

If I do not enjoy the game in the first place however, I'm not going to be looking for any replayability.

It's a secondary concern entirely dependant on the game being awesome to start with.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Baff1

[ghost101 10]

It's a secondary concern entirely dependant on the game being awesome to start with.

good point and it couldn't be anything other than awesome to anyone wanting a sandbox milsim. of course, if you don't want that then it won't be very awesome. too bad for those people i guess.

[kremator 1065]

The bottom line! Coop ruined this awesome game!

I'm still laughing at your stupidity.

LOLOLOLOLOL

[tk1138 10]

Coop has ruined the game as far as I can tell. I just don't play like I used too cause every time I start the game no matter the time or day and all it is is Coop games by the hundreds (all playing the same f-ing style game). I really hate playing against AI with militant nerds on my side. Just want to gun and have fun in the wonderful world of Arma but do it against real people. If Arma 3 has no PvP push behind it it will end up with the exect same amount of people playing the current Arma2 right now. Anyone new might pick it up and install it but as soon as they try to play online.... Game gets shelved.

Anyone new will just go to B3 or something... At least on the other games you're fighting real people. It doesn't take hours and hours to learn how to play, and then when you do you go online to play and find only coop servers all running virtually the same mission with most of the servers running any number of various addons that keep you from joining the server anyway.

The bottom line! Coop ruined this awesome game!

I await this tread being closed due to any negative talk about Coop. Or just having my post removed by the Kings of the Forum, cause all they play is coop apparently and want it no other way.

i have to agree here coop is a joke like this guy said a bunch of retarded skilless nerds fighting enemies that generally just stand there and dont shot back...i assumed that their would be more pvp, but the only real pvp that i have found was in a russian server (on the free edition) that is only populated during the day time in the eastern usa...

[ajax420 0]

i have to agree here coop is a joke like this guy said a bunch of retarded skilless nerds fighting enemies that generally just stand there and dont shot back...i assumed that their would be more pvp, but the only real pvp that i have found was in a russian server (on the free edition) that is only populated during the day time in the eastern usa...

You got it man... The arma2free Russian server is one of the only pvp's out there that doesn't have a 180 ping limit like the European PvPDoa server has. I have put up servers over the years and for some reason the vast amount of peeps want to play armchair general and play target practice with AI. I don't get it.

I'm pretty sick of people decrying that Arma was NOT made for PvP play. I'd love for BIS to chime in and prove that point. The staggering number of coop servers running virtually the same style of game are hurting this game for those who want to fight against other real people with real brains in there noggins.

I declare that PvP in Arma IS the freaking most fun and intense game available to play out there... Hands down, it's sheer freaking excitement.

It's totally sad that that excitement is so hard to come by.

Would be cool if some of those loaded coop servers just threw a few PvP maps in there to rotate. There is such an untapped plethora of existing missions and various types of PvP that rarely gets played and I think allot of the guys shooting against AI just have no idea they even exist.