England 'Riots'

[da12thMonkey 1943]

From what I've read, the rioting appears to be more opportunistic than political. I agree with those who've called for a tougher approach.

Of course they are.

The riots in Tottenham (which did have an agenda to begin with - albeit a bloody stupid one) just showed young people that they can get away with public disorder because the Police are as soft as shit - so why not have a go, it's not like they have school/college in the morning.

Same sort of thing happened in NI last month at the start of their school holidays. There was one or two nights of 'successful' rioting in one city that spread to others because the PSNI were seen to be powerless to stop it.

The Police here need to realise that the intent, and level of criminality in these riots is entirely different to the G8 protests where they were criticised for being heavy-handed (in spite of the fact their response would be considered lenient in almost every other developed country). It's about time they broke out the ARWENs and did the job we expect them to do - so far they're a fucking embarrassment.

[walker 0]

Hi all

Redacted as Jeza has accepted correction from another who was less brutal than I:

Spoiler kept for historical reasons only

If your referring to ' Jean Charles de Menezes' then I have to disagree the guy ran a couple of weeks after 7/7 , from armed police, if he infact the bloke did have some sort of bomb on him then it could have been catastrophic, may sound harsh but in that situation better safe than sorry, if an armed officer points an automatic weapon at me and says stop, I stop especially after 7/7.

Hi Jeza

I realise you have not read the IPCC report on the killing of 'Jean Charles de Menezes' I am guessing you got your idea of what happened from a News Corp rag or you just made up that story in your own head. So would you be so kind as to stop perpetuating lies on the forum, that cast aspersion on an innocent man.

I suggest you read the actual investigation report.

Until then I refer you to the Telegraph, not a news paper known for its left leanings.

Menezes could not have saved his life

By Richard Edwards

12:01AM BST 03 Aug 2007

Jean Charles de Menezes was not warned or challenged by police before he was shot seven times in the head, it was revealed yesterday.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) report said police had given the Brazilian no instruction "that an innocent man would have understood".

IPCC Commissioner Naseem Malik said: "There is no action he could have consciously taken that would have saved him".

The revelations contradicted the Met's insistence that Mr de Menezes failed to obey a challenge by police at Stockwell Tube station.

Though the full details of the conduct of the police officers who shot him on July 22 2005 are part of a separate investigation, a few new clues emerged from the report...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1559318/Menezes-could-not-have-saved-his-life.html

As always follow the link to the opriginal article in full

To give you a potted description of what happened:

1. He was not wearing any suspicious clothing
   
2. He walked into the station and picked up Metro News Paper
   
3. He used his Oyster card and walked through the ticket barrier
   
4. He went down the escalator in normal fashion
   
5. His train arrived as he reached the bottom of the escalator
   
6. He ran at that moment, as has anyone who catches a tube train
   
7. He sat down on his seat next to the door
   
8. He opened his newspaper
   
9. No Police officer identified them self
   
10. A police officer shouted 'He's here!'
    
11. Mr de Menezes stood up
    
12. One Police officer ran and grabbed him in bear hug
    
13. A firearms officer ran up and shot him in the head seven times
    

The above is all covered in the IPCC report but is summed up with this quote:

"The IPCC investigation understands that Mr de Menezes did not refuse to obey a challenge … and was not wearing any clothing that could be classed as suspicious," the report adds.

In the aftermath of his death, it was revealed police were adhering to a policy known as "Operation Kratos", which said there was no need to challenge potential suicide bombers before shooting.

It was dubbed a "shoot-to-kill" policy because, where public or police are in imminent danger, it is suggested marksmen should aim at the head, not the torso, to "neutralise" the subject.

Ibid

Kind Regards walker

---------- Post added at 03:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:40 PM ----------

From what I've read, the rioting appears to be more opportunistic than political. I agree with those who've called for a tougher approach.

Hi ST_Dux

I agree that is not political rioting and mostly opportunistic but it is the political climate that has sowed it.

One of the few occasions when we can say it was the conservative political chicken that laid this riot and crime egg.

Kind Regards walker

Edited August 9, 2011 by walker
added link to article I was quoting, redacted offending passage into a spoiler

[[aps]gnat 28]

Its just another form of "terrorism"

The only reason people aren't jumping on that old bandwagon is because they don't have towel around their heads.

Hoodlums in Hoodies

[PELHAM 10]

Crime and rioting has always occured when the conservatives are in power.

This trouble in particular has nothing to do with politics and to try to gain political capital out of it is rather distasteful and banal.

Yes we know there is always trouble when the Torys are in power - it's because the far left organise it so well. Civil disturbance has long been a union / militant socialist tactic and this year was no exception.

I'm not a Tory voter BTW and politics needs to be kept out of this. These are just mindless thugs who found an opportunity to take what they want and live out some violent fantasies.

[walker 0]

Hi PELHAM

I am not disputing that those rioting are primarily criminal and opportunistic. As I said:

...

Hi ST_Dux

I agree that is not political rioting and mostly opportunistic but it is the political climate that has sowed it.

One of the few occasions when we can say it was the conservative political chicken that laid this riot and crime egg.

Kind Regards walker

I am referring to historical facts. Check them if you wish

I am stating that it is historical fact that conservative policies are what creates the breeding grounds for the rising crime and riots.

So:

...Crime and rioting has always occurred when the conservatives are in power.

Mainly because when the conservatives get into power they always:

1. Increase the amount of unemployment.
   
2. Increase the percentage of national GDP given to super rich.
   
3. Decrease the percentage of national GDP the poor are allowed to keep.
   
4. Increase inflation.
   
5. Reduce the numbers of police.
   

Idle hands do the devils work; to quote a christian saying. Then the conservatives goad people into fighting by reducing peoples incomes and allowing the super rich to increase their share of profits by reducing workers wages and increasing inflation and finally they reduce the number of police.

History:

The last major rioting in the UK took place under a conservative government for exactly the same reasons; from: the broadwater farm, the brixton riots, to poll tax riots, and the miners.

During the whole period of the labour government crime reduced and rioting disappeared.

The plain fact is we have a government that is not legitimate and is universally disliked, is under the thumb of News Corp and that has spent the last two years making the tax payer and electorate pay for a banking scam.

That kind of thing gets up peoples noses eventually...

...a vote for a conservative is a vote for rising crime and riots.

Kind Regards walker

You can not argue with history or facts, they just ignore you and steamroller over you; ask the Romans

Kind Regards walker

Edited August 9, 2011 by walker

[jeza 5416]

Hi Jeza

I realise you have not read the IPCC report on the killing of 'Jean Charles de Menezes' I am guessing you got your idea of what happened from a News Corp rag or you just made up that story in your own head. So would you be so kind as to stop purpertrating lies on the forum, that cast aspersion on an innocent man.

Hello Walker

I had not read the report and what i heard was from when it happend on radio 4. Dmark put me straight and I thanked him for doing so, so now i have an idea of what happend. They were not lies of any kind, it was an old mis-informed accound of what happend on the day itself. Please re-frame in future in taking that tone and being rude, I was wrong and i politely accepted that from another member who was kind enough to put it right, there's no need to kick someone when there down. Thank you.

[Jungle 10]

God I love these forums for the arguments its sometimes like a childs playground!

Why dont people just go oi mate your wrong read this, then link. Just like what Dmark did with Jeza (without the link lol)

[walker 0]

Hi Jeza

I have placed the offending text with in a spoiler by way of redaction. If you wish me to go further PM me and we can work out a reasoned redaction of the whole event between us.

Kind Regards walker

Edited August 9, 2011 by walker

[PELHAM 10]

Hi PELHAM

I am referring to historical facts. Check them if you wish

Kind Regards walker

I have checked them and came to the conclusion that anyone can cherry pick and fine tune history to demonstrate whatever they wish. You seem to be very good at this, perhaps we can give you an award of some sort?

Some more facts, the people involved in this lawlessness:

don't work,

don't vote,

don't contribute anything,

are not involved in society or the economy,

I fail to see how the policies of anyone can do anything for them. They are only interested in taking, not giving.

Your solution is to shower them with money to keep them quiet and placid?

I can't argue with that, sounds good to me, I will give up my job and join them, see you down the high street tonight lol. :D

[dmarkwick 261]

I have checked them and came to the conclusion that anyone can cherry pick and fine tune history to demonstrate whatever they wish. You seem to be very good at this, perhaps we can give you an award of some sort?

Some more facts, the people involved in this lawlessness:

don't work,

don't vote,

don't contribute anything,

are not involved in society or the economy,

I fail to see how the policies of anyone can do anything for them. They are only interested in taking, not giving.

Your solution is to shower them with money to keep them quiet and placid?

I can't argue with that, sounds good to me, I will give up my job and join them, see you down the high street tonight lol. :D

That's an accurate, and yet simplistic, notion of what's going on.

When the greediest people in the world balls everything up so completely that it takes the combined efforts of governments to ensure that their industry remains intact, and then such a government tells the working classes that they're the ones who're going to pay for it all, and that all the benefits they enjoyed before such as hope and optimism are taken away, that the communities they live in are to be less policed, less developed, amenities taken away, and that it will get worse, a certain kind of person will simply say WTF. Their future has been stolen, they are sold into wage slavery. Anything they earn will be taxed, and that tax will pay for the mistakes of the bankers.

Meanwhile the bankers continue to award themselves bonuses.

People are fed up. This is just the way the lower society elements are displaying it. There's no condoning it - it's just an observable behaviour. If that behaviour were to climb up the social ladder, well that's when you get a revolution. As it is now, it's "just" rioting & looting. But consider the economic background, and consider the economic backgrounds of previous riots and disturbances. They don't happen when things are going well.

[Tonci87 163]

That's an accurate, and yet simplistic, notion of what's going on.

When the greediest people in the world balls everything up so completely that it takes the combined efforts of governments to ensure that their industry remains intact, and then such a government tells the working classes that they're the ones who're going to pay for it all, and that all the benefits they enjoyed before such as hope and optimism are taken away, that the communities they live in are to be less policed, less developed, amenities taken away, and that it will get worse, a certain kind of person will simply say WTF. Their future has been stolen, they are sold into wage slavery. Anything they earn will be taxed, and that tax will pay for the mistakes of the bankers.

Meanwhile the bankers continue to award themselves bonuses.

People are fed up. This is just the way the lower society elements are displaying it. There's no condoning it - it's just an observable behaviour. If that behaviour were to climb up the social ladder, well that's when you get a revolution. As it is now, it's "just" rioting & looting. But consider the economic background, and consider the economic backgrounds of previous riots and disturbances. They don't happen when things are going well.

^this

[bangtail 0]

That's an accurate, and yet simplistic, notion of what's going on.

When the greediest people in the world balls everything up so completely that it takes the combined efforts of governments to ensure that their industry remains intact, and then such a government tells the working classes that they're the ones who're going to pay for it all, and that all the benefits they enjoyed before such as hope and optimism are taken away, that the communities they live in are to be less policed, less developed, amenities taken away, and that it will get worse, a certain kind of person will simply say WTF. Their future has been stolen, they are sold into wage slavery. Anything they earn will be taxed, and that tax will pay for the mistakes of the bankers.

Meanwhile the bankers continue to award themselves bonuses.

People are fed up. This is just the way the lower society elements are displaying it. There's no condoning it - it's just an observable behaviour. If that behaviour were to climb up the social ladder, well that's when you get a revolution. As it is now, it's "just" rioting & looting. But consider the economic background, and consider the economic backgrounds of previous riots and disturbances. They don't happen when things are going well.

/QFT ^^ +1

The hard working majority are getting sick of rich politicians and bankers forcing them to swallow 'austerity measures' while they continue to swan about at 30K a plate dinners etc while simultaneously destroying the economy.

These greedy morons had better get a clue and fast because as much as this will probably quieten down, it will not be the last disturbance if things don't change.

And let's face face it, things aren't going to change because the 'powers that be' see themselves as invincible and infallible. Sadly, as with most arrogant and self absorbed human beings, they have made the age old mistake of totally ignoring history.

You've already got idiot politicians making statements like 'nothing is off the table' in terms of what is an acceptable response (to the rioting) and if an ARU opens fire on a group of unarmed protestors for example, what is happening now will likely look like a sunday school picnic by comparison.

Edited August 9, 2011 by BangTail

[jblackrupert 14]

So are the flash mobs in cities like Philly and the riots at the Wisconson state fair the result of evil politicians also?

[Daniel 0]

They need to break out the water cannons. Seriously.

Our right to openly protest is hard earned and should be used whenever we, as a country, feel strongly about something. These idiots risk ruining everything by smashing up other people's property just for the craic. They've forgone their human rights by disregarding other people's peace and property, they should be dealt with accordingly.

Edited August 9, 2011 by Daniel

[jblackrupert 14]

Mark Duggan was a known gang member. Those "Peaceful" protests were just a warmup

for people to do what they had planned all along.

I love how people now treat criminals like victims nowadays.

Edited August 9, 2011 by jblackrupert

[mr burns 132]

Two weeks no Top Gear and then this happens :butbut:

[st_dux 26]

When the greediest people in the world balls everything up so completely that it takes the combined efforts of governments to ensure that their industry remains intact, and then such a government tells the working classes that they're the ones who're going to pay for it all, and that all the benefits they enjoyed before such as hope and optimism are taken away, that the communities they live in are to be less policed, less developed, amenities taken away, and that it will get worse, a certain kind of person will simply say WTF. Their future has been stolen, they are sold into wage slavery. Anything they earn will be taxed, and that tax will pay for the mistakes of the bankers.

This is true, but the blame is usually misplaced. The problem isn't greed. To varying degrees, everyone is greedy, and quite frankly, greed is essential for capitalism to flourish. The problem is government: Government should not be in the business of bailing out failed banks and financial institutions. Capitalism is about profit and loss, and regardless of what the government thinks it can do, it can't magically cause economic losses to vanish. It can only move them somewhere else, which is what you're seeing in the austerity measures.

Edited August 9, 2011 by ST_Dux

[PELHAM 10]

The people who are rioting did not have their future stolen, they gave it away themselves. If they had stayed at school and got some qualifications, not taken drugs and earned nice long criminal records they would find life a little easier.

If you hang around in tracksuits and hoodies, stinking of weed, covering yourself in tattoos and talking like a moron it's very difficult to get a job you know? So don't do that. I particularly admire local Chavs that tattoo imbecilic nonsense on their faces and necks, what do they expect? Some are so high all the time they can't even stand up straight.

I for one do not mind amenities and public services being cut because I don't use any, I don't need them or use them (I only notice something is amiss when the bins are not emptied). I got a degree at my own expense (4 years working in a factory) and I pay my way for everything. It's very easy to do. You stay in school, concentrate, don't mouth off, don't disrupt lessons and work hard. There is no secret to it. Waiting around to be given something is not the answer.

I find getting a job very easy because I have never caused any trouble or have a criminal record. I know what poor is BTW, my grandparents lived in a shack in Africa with a floor made out of cow dung mixed with parafin oil that was baked hard in the sun. They washed in an old oil drum and so did I when I was very young. They never rioted, they made the best out of their poor circumstances.

Why is it myself and others can do this but certain 'members of the working (sic) class' can't?

Edited August 9, 2011 by PELHAM

[Daniel 0]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

Have a listen (at the risk of losing a few IQ points).

[jeza 5416]

The people who are rioting did not have their future stolen, they gave it away themselves. If they had stayed at school and got some qualifications, not taken drugs and earned nice long criminal records they would find life a little easier.

Totally agree i grew up in Holloway road in Islington, went to a grim school but got my grades graduated and ended up at Oxford Brookes Uni, however i know few guys out there now causing trouble as i've kept in touch with them, they had the same chances as myself and others and they choose to just piss it all down the drain and have ended up with criminal records and juve jail terms.

Yeah I posted that a while back Daniel, its pretty worrying ; there attitude towards things.

[Tonci87 163]

This is true, but the blame is usually misplaced. The problem isn't greed. To varying degrees, everyone is greedy, and quite frankly, greed is essential for capitalism to flourish. The problem is government: Government should not be in the business of bailing out failed banks and financial institutions. Capitalism is about profit and loss, and regardless of what the government thinks it can do, it can't magically cause economic losses to vanish. It can only move them somewhere else, which is what you're seeing in the austerity measures.

The problem is that we don't have capitalism but something that could be described as reign of the markets.

Just look at whats happening in the USA. One raiting agency sais something and the whole world goes awol. Can you imagine the enourmous political power those agencies have?

[dm 9]

It can only move them somewhere else, which is what you're seeing in the austerity measures.

It is, however, very painful to watch normal services canceled for the same cost as those that caused this current austerity are still recieving in bonuses.

There really should be some more accountability for those responsible, you only get a bonus when you dont fuck up the global economy. When you do, you can damn well pay to resolve some of the problems you caused.

[Tonci87 163]

It is, however, very painful to watch normal services canceled for the same cost as those that caused this current austerity are still recieving in bonuses.

There really should be some more accountability for those responsible, you only get a bonus when you dont fuck up the global economy. When you do, you can damn well pay to resolve some of the problems you caused.

And this^

[jblackrupert 14]

Why is it myself and others can do this but certain 'members of the working (sic) class' can't?

Because Governments in Europe and North America have created welfare states.

Having babies gets you a house and an even bigger cheque each month

and free stuff to go along with it.

Slinging crack and collecting a cheque is what a lot of these people on the streets rioting do.

Edited August 9, 2011 by jblackrupert

[Daniel 0]

There really should be some more accountability for those responsible, you only get a bonus when you dont fuck up the global economy. When you do, you can damn well pay to resolve some of the problems you caused.

Agreed. Unfortunately I think we missed the chance when we bailed them out so easily.