Development Blog & Reveals

[4 IN 1 0]

What is the longest chain for the most unaccessible AI command at the moment: two or three directories down?

They clearly need to refine it, remove/combine unused/duplicate command and make sure AI do follow them, but they still post a lots of use to be just dump in exchange for something that can be done better in fast accessible menu, one example I find I like is from R6:Vegas, the game itself sucks in many level as an R6 game, but I personally find their radial action menu for weapon are one of the very few things that done right. What should be done here is to combine context sensitive menu into radial action menu so that people can retain fast access to offend use command without losing ability to give more complex order, or order that do not show in context sensitive menu.

I think it's the most eloquent solution to Weps-Command problem and it doesn't employ radial menu for commands, which would be a bit unwieldy because of the number of sub-sections/directories. No key bindings would change, apart from the automatic function toggle of the 0-9 number keys, upon selecting a unit.

Bear in mind that you still have status report and support call that needed to perform from complex command.

Another thing that comes in mind, the menus locations, once you bring up, should never block your view, nor should it require you to take your eyes off from the center of the screen, move it down to the lower center part of the screen should do the trick

Edited August 24, 2012 by 4 IN 1

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Under no circumstances would the key layout change with a radial Action menu, activation is still by middle mouse button.

Realsoft3Ds compass menu is "hold key to activate a specific menu, then right click drag and let go to select", if mouse lands in a "dead spot" no field is activated and the menu closes. It will also close on selection of course. Biggest selling point of a 2x8 rose is that you never have to do any "submenu navigation". Point of having 8 cardinal directions is that the muscles learns these movements quickly.

As for keys, I really don't care, as long as I can change default bindings (including the command keys). If we could get access to low level commands for all the command key combos, I'm pretty sure scripters with some GUI knowledge would come up with a handful of solutions to try out. There really is no system that will fully satisfy everyone, so give us the tools needed to create a whole bunch of options.

Also note that action menu (and particular the command "target" [2] and "action [6] menus) is much harder to do than you realize, due to the dynamic approach to these. Try setting up your own theory, and I'll crush your dream in an instant :p

Edited August 24, 2012 by CarlGustaffa

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

What should be done here is to combine context sensitive menu into radial action menu so that people can retain fast access to offend use command without losing ability to give more complex order, or order that do not show in context sensitive menu.

Context-sensitive you mean the crosshair? There needs to be an increase in the deadzone to trigger a pop-up for Action, because as it currently stands, you're actually looking for a few pixels to initiate ladder climb, open a door etc.

[4 IN 1 0]

Context-sensitive you mean the crosshair? There needs to be an increase in the deadzone to trigger a pop-up for Action, because as it currently stands, you're actually looking for a few pixels to initiate ladder climb, open a door etc.

No, the context senstive menu for commanding squad, that darn thing you have to get rid of before accessing complex command.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

No, the context senstive menu for commanding squad, that darn thing you have to get rid of before accessing complex command.

The command topics? Right. Could be reworked I guess, some commands are useless as they stand. 7-2, 3-5 is all you need from there. :D

---------- Post added at 17:41 ---------- Previous post was at 17:38 ----------

Realsoft3Ds compass menu is "hold key to activate a specific menu, then right click drag and let go to select", if mouse lands in a "dead spot" no field is activated and the menu closes. It will also close on selection of course. Biggest selling point of a 2x8 rose is that you never have to do any "submenu navigation". Point of having 8 cardinal directions is that the muscles learns these movements quickly.

Sweet, that's exactly what I have in mind.

Also note that action menu (and particular the command "target" [2] and "action [6] menus) is much harder to do than you realize, due to the dynamic approach to these. Try setting up your own theory, and I'll crush your dream in an instant :p

Can't you "stream" new actions onto the rose-wheel? Empty, invisible waiting spots for new Actions in the vicinity/context - are you saying that they can't be swapped places easily?

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Well, I did have context sensitivity in mind when I designed my own system, such as "Light toggle" always being in the same compass spot, or "Get in as whatever" always being in same spot etc. However, I realized that when I quickly expended all these 16 slots for "regular actions", the problem that arises from custom actions coming on top of those, or combinations that didn't dawn on me at the time, that it had problems.

Again, these are 16 slots, sixteen - a bit more than the typical 6-10 that usually comes around when compasses are discussed - and I ran into theoretical problems without that much effort in trying to. It's like there are a lot more actual (even more potential) actions that people seem to realize. Swapping places defies the purpose of becoming a motoric skill, and thus fast to execute. Having to actually look, read, and interpret what you're looking at makes a compass no better than the action menu wrt efficiency. It's no problem "streaming" data onto it at a fixed size, but I don't think anytime soon we'll see "dialog definitions" (display with mouse handler obviously better choice, but currently has limitations) with dynamic rose expansions (goes from 6 slot 60° spaced slots to 7 slot 51.4° spaced slots on demand).

This is why I want to have the roses with different layouts - not just circular, but also square, diamond, and even the old fashioned straight (or double, or 3DS quad for that matter) available - you'll quickly reach the conclusion that a circular shape, however nice to look at, proves problematic for some applications and you're pretty much forced into different approaches.

And like Realsoft3D, the whole idea is that although you get decent roses from the game itself, it allows you to fully customize what they're bound to, and what each slot activates. Unlike Realsoft3D, I also want to expand this customization into what feedback information layer (sound, images, text only etc) is shown for each compass and opacity levels for this information, rose layout style, different rose sizes if need be, and maybe even individual mouse sensitivity settings.

So formation echelon right? That means nothing to the new player. Positioned correctly in a "formation rose", combined with graphical cues on what it does, may quickly teach the new guy what it's all about, and when confident enough he can turn off "all the clutter", while still having it on for "attack commands" which he is still learning.

It took me minutes to fall in love with the Realsoft3D compass system. I'm still having serious issues with the number commands getting things done. Even after years of inactivity on the gfx front, I know the movements for everything I used. I can't say the say about Arma, where I still have to read the menus, press the wrong key, back, try again etc. That being said, I'm not blatantly saying this is the mother of all input devices for gaming, but I really want to give it a try. OFP2 to me proved horrible with its quad based submenu navigation, but I guess it was never designed with mouse and keyboard in mind either :)

[Praelium 0]

Any thoughts on dedicating the Numpad towards unit commands?

Pros:

- More compact

- Better organized

- Quicker

- The "Del" key already opens up the 3rd person command interface

- The possibility to include the arrow keys as well as the End, Delete, Insert, Home, and Page Up/Down as dedicated quick command keys.

Cons:

- Requires moving one hand away from WASD or from the mouse

- Further away from F1 - F12.

The main advantage would be having all the command keys in one centralized location. The number row can keep its current function as commands also or we can use it for weapon switching (i.e. 1 = Pistols, 2 = Rifle, etc), or both can be used with the Shift key as a toggle, as it was discussed earlier.

To expand on the last pro in the list ("the possibility to include the arrow keys as well as the End, Delete, Insert, Home, and Page Up/Down as dedicated quick command keys"), my idea is something like this:

Arrow keys: Flank left, right, forward, or retreat

End/Delete: Open fire/Hold fire

Insert/Home: Engage/Return to formation

Page Up/Down: Stand/Stay low

This would allow the player to quickly issue important commands without the need to use the "quick command menu option", which like the action menu is clunky and prone to cause mistakes.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Thought about it and the numpad is not really usable in combat, dedicated keys for often used/vital commands within reach would be good, though we don't have the keys to spare. Reworking the current command dialog menu and repositioning certain commands, while leaving input via 0-9 and (automatic) toggle seems to be the best compromise.

F1-F12 key being the auto toggle for command input on the 0-9 number keys is brilliant in my opinion - have you ever clicked one of them my mistake without a unit selected and thought to yourself, "What a redundant menu... Backspace, backspace!"? My thoughts exactly.

[Praelium 0]

Thought about it and the numpad is not really usable in combat, dedicated keys for often used/vital commands within reach would be good, though we don't have the keys to spare. Reworking the current command dialog menu and repositioning certain commands, while leaving input via 0-9 and (automatic) toggle seems to be the best compromise.

F1-F12 key being the auto toggle for command input on the 0-9 number keys is brilliant in my opinion - have you ever clicked one of them my mistake without a unit selected and thought to yourself, "What a redundant menu... Backspace, backspace!"? My thoughts exactly.

Well, at the moment the Numpad is used for free look, which is toggled to Alt anyways. Other than switching between 1st and 3rd person, am I forgetting any other important keys that are located in that area of the keyboard? And again, I want to emphasize that having single key commands could be huge. Unless the player wants to assign the "Return to formation" command to specific units, simply pressing the Home key should apply to ALL units. That's it. One key stroke to issue a command. No need for "~ 1 1".

I agree with the redundancy part, though. So basically the number row would be assigned to weapons UNLESS a unit is selected with ~ or F1 - F12?

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I agree with the redundancy part, though. So basically the number row would be assigned to weapons UNLESS a unit is selected with ~ or F1 - F12?

Correct: default function of the 0-9 keys is weapon/gadget selection, F1-F12 toggles it to full command mode till all units are deselected.

[CriminalMinds 10]

Sorry to interrupt you guys, but I have to remind you all: This is the ARMA 3 development blog & reveals thread and not a discussion thread for controls etc.!

So please open a new thread or use the search function but don't rape this one. Thank you.

Greetings

CriminalMinds

[W0lle 1050]

Exactly. I'm pretty sure there are better threads to discuss controls than this one. :)

[.kju 3245]

It would be useful if an admin would extract the posts and merge them into a new thread.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

It would be useful if an admin would extract the posts and merge them into a new thread.

+1 Can we unclip the few last pages into a separate thread, since it is all interface/menu discussion? Starting from this post, http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?122794-ARMA-3-development-blog-amp-reveals&p=2211755&viewfull=1#post2211755

Appreciated.

[HKFlash 9]

+1 Can we unclip the few last pages into a separate thread, since it is all interface/menu discussion? Starting from this post, http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?122794-ARMA-3-development-blog-amp-reveals&p=2211755&viewfull=1#post2211755

Appreciated.

See this

[james2464 176]

Karel MoÅ™ický â€@KarelMoricky

"Just added a briefing module to #Arma3. The first step in making mission editing without any scripting knowledge possible."

https://twitter.com/KarelMoricky

[maddogx 13]

Sounds like a nice new confirmed feature, and it's only the "first step". :)

I wonder what else they have planned.

[papanowel 120]

Something like VBS? :)

[chortles 263]

Something like what aspect of VBS, Papanowel?

[moricky 211]

Actually, many of the latest editor improvements were inspired by inFamous 2

;)

[papanowel 120]

Something like what aspect of VBS, Papanowel?

For the briefing and objectives.

[BobcatBob 10]

So aren't there any Official Gamescom presentations by bohemia like the E3 ones they started, I thought a dev stated here to expect them... Also I really hope BI doesn't stay really really quiet until the Community Alpha releases, I can't take another quarter-year of the silent treatment!

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

So aren't there any Official Gamescom presentations by bohemia like the E3 ones they started, I thought a dev stated here to expect them... Also I really hope BI doesn't stay really really quiet until the Community Alpha releases, I can't take another quarter-year of the silent treatment!

This. :( No official footage after GC makes for a painful withdrawal. :(

[antoineflemming 14]

So aren't there any Official Gamescom presentations by bohemia like the E3 ones they started, I thought a dev stated here to expect them... Also I really hope BI doesn't stay really really quiet until the Community Alpha releases, I can't take another quarter-year of the silent treatment!

Well we can't have that yet. We're still waiting on the rest of the official E3 showcases...

[chortles 263]

Unfortunately I don't believe that they're forthcoming -- as RiE explained previously, the Helicopter and Infantry showcases were preempted by Gamescom, and of course the E3 build is now outdated, so you'd basically only have those two for the "Gamescom build showcases."