How the new dimension water can be used [Ideas & Concepts]

[purepassion 22]

BIS opened us a new dimension: The sea and underwater world.

I am very curious about wether we will see underwater combat and how it will be implemented in the game.

The newly introduced frogmen are usually used to infiltrate and sabotage behind enemy lines or rescue hostages or specialized on other combat operations.

Nevertheless, underwater combat is an key element regarding maritime forces.

Spearguns are often used and even amphibious underwater rifles and handguns find their use in military forces. However, implementing those kind of things would open up a lot of problems like AI behaviour in 3 Dimensions, weapon ballistics and many more. so real underwater combat with rifles etc might be a very good idea, but would not make it through a comparison of costs vs gameplay.

As announced by BIS there will be sabotage missions in the campaign, so i presume that BIS will have its main focus on using the new dimension as a platform for infiltrating and mission objectives such as sabotaging value hostile forces.

If you want to expand this idea you have to take various aspects in count:

How could you protect yourself from the thread of invisible combat swimmers and SDV's?

• Frogmen are a high threat due to their stealth abilities
  

A solution for this might be naval mines

• There are various types of mines:
  
• Limpet mines
  
• moored contact mines
  
• drifting contact mines
  
• bottom contact mines
  
• remotely controled mines
  
• Influence mines etc...

But in the case of Arma, implementing all of these would not be a very efficient idea: things would go more complicated and they all follow the same purpose: destroying naval units; so one type of mines would be totally enough.

The game is set in 2025, so an more optimised and advanced type of mines would be an accurat choice.

Famous examples are the MK62 QSM (quick strike mine) or the Mark 60 CAPTOR.

So now the question is, how could a concept for mines in ARMA III look like?

The best choice would be an simplified system.

Mines could be deployed via Aircraft, ships ( if the fiiting types will be present in ARMA III) or smaller submarines.

The presence of big ships or submarine in arma 3 is rather unlikely, so the method of choice would be delivering mines via aerial platforms such as the C-130, or the corresponding plane in arma 3.

Therefore we take a closer look at the CAPTOR mine and the MK60(62) QS mine.

How could it work in the field?

As pointed out above, mines will be delievered via aicrafts.

An parachute opens and the mines fall down into the sea. They then slowly sink down towards the sea bottom. Once reached the desired height, ( a simple code saying: "If mineDistanceBottom<30; then.." or similar could do the job) the mine gets into a static position and uses a simple sort of the radar seen in arma 2. Once it spottes an enemy in a certain range, it will simply explode.

To make it more interesting, these mines also have the possibilty to give a sonar footprint and a small chance of beeing spotted

This simple idea would intensify the experience in the new dimension and add a variety of tactical aspects:

Mines do not work against smaller targets: combat divers etc; and can defuse them via charges or similar.

Finally an effective protection against the threat of combat swimmers simply infiltrating from the sea without problems.

etc..

I mean, come on who would not like to make the experience of diving through the deep ocean and see on of these badboys behind the next corner right in fron of you and then slowly dive towards it, put a charge on it and neutralise it?! ;)

So why should we have mines in Arma 3?

• If not implemented, the newly introduced combat swimmers have an unbeaten advantage
  
• effective solution against SDV's and combat Swimmers
  
• Opens a completely new aspect of warfare, battle tactics and interesting combat
  

Do you like the idea, would you like to add something or have completely different new ideas and concepts? Where do you see problems? Tell me :)

I would especially like to hear a professional opinion from maybe the devs to see whether you think it’s a good idea or not.

Best Greetings

PP

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Meh. I'm not entirely thrilled to see BIS spending effort on/selling this (underwater dimension). It just feels sort of like a gimmick, like fastroping and HALO jumping. They can be cool and exciting (and don't get me wrong, this underwater stuff does look really cool) and generally nice to have (especially for modders), but honestly I don't see them being useful for more than a few very specific situations.

Of course the MW3 trailer kind of spoiled it a bit for ArmA 3 too.

Edited July 7, 2011 by Big Dawg KS

[dmarkwick 261]

Might be some mileage out of salvage for those missions that have salvage features.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Might be some mileage out of salvage for those missions that have salvage features.

Yes, not without use of course, but much more limited mileage than other (much more needed IMO) features could have brought.

[purepassion 22]

well but its a fact that we will have the ocean as a new platform for our creative minds in ARMA III, now we have the question of where we see potential and what we think should or could be achieved

[Steakslim 1]

Little Mermaid addon ftw

[Mr. Charles 22]

Dear Sir,

Your post does not qualify for an ArmA3 forums thread, because of several reasons:

A) your post is well structured and readable

B) your post does not contain at least 4 insults and/or flamebaiting

C) your post does not contain the needed amount of exclamation marks

D) your post has valid arguments and points

I must hereby inform you that your posting license in the ArmA3 forums has been revoked for an indefinite time. Have a nice day!

Mr. Charles

OT: ZOMFG DEM MINES!!!1! I COMPLETELY AGGREEEEE LOL!

[SPC.Spets 21]

I was thinking about some mission where you have to cross a bridge over a river, you think that everything is quiet and the river looks so wonderfull.. and then, suddenly, some armed boat comes and... epic! :p

[merlin 17]

I like this idea but i would prefer a more practical solution, hand grenades and other explosives should have a substantial effect on underwater units. I remember speaking with my father about the conflict in vietnam and telling him about dolphins trained to kill frogmen, to which he responded that troops stationed on floating barracks would regularly throw grenades into the water to deter enemy frogmen.

I don't nessecarily advocate the introduction of dolphins into ArmA 3, i do think explosives should be enormously effective as a countermeasure against divers. this would require no additional models and the only problem i imagine BI would run into would be some kind of unique damage model for submerged units.

I'm not sure whether it would be easy to implement or realistic for the AI to perform such counter-frogmen techniques as i imagine visual identification would be difficult. however if the player were to flee into the water after attracting the AIs attention perhaps they could revert to grenades/explosive weapons and attack the players last known/predicted location.

also some suggested reading for the thread

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-frogman_techniques

[logandog1240 10]

I don't nessecarily advocate the introduction of dolphins into ArmA 3, i do think explosives should be enormously effective as a countermeasure against divers. this would require no additional models and the only problem i imagine BI would run into would be some kind of unique damage model for submerged units.

I'm not sure whether it would be easy to implement or realistic for the AI to perform such counter-frogmen techniques as i imagine visual identification would be difficult. however if the player were to flee into the water after attracting the AIs attention perhaps they could revert to grenades/explosive weapons and attack the players last known/predicted location.

also on another note, if anyone knows the addon maker gnat, now he can intergrate his submarine more acurately. he could make it so SDVs deploy from then instead of zodiacs, etc

[Flash Thunder 10]

ill use it for taking a nice piss and to watch the fishies.

ZOMG!!!111one1!!two

[rye1 21]

Mines are used, and heavily supplied in order to be used in amphibious operations. You can easily block a whole port with one limpet mine and wrecked ship, therefore others would have to station out of port and become very vunerable to attack.

Some great successes have happened in the past; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Jaywick. Mines are a warships nightmare.

Underwater rifles would be great, though you're correct about ballistics, they only go so far underwater depending on how far under and end up tumbling quickly;- that's why a divers back-up is always a knife or amphibious pistol.

BIS have given us the basics, I don't think they'll get too advanced. That's a chance for the modders to do something now they have the basics to work with. I can't wait.

[5LEvEN 11]

I like the ideas. But I would not like the dev's to spend time on them. The reason is we have the basics, and these would be used in naval combat or missions involving ships and divers. This could be accomplished by the community as a mod. I don't see any mission potential (unless we get more powerful computers) that could use all of those in MP. Which is why I would rather have it be just a mod made by the community.

[purepassion 22]

The question "Why" at a closer look

Well no matter how,its a fact that there will be Swimmer Delievery Vehicles and Combat Divers, mainly used for infiltrating behind enemy territory.

A Game always has to be well balanced in order to make it fun is what you might think.

But in the case of Arma, its different.

Arma has always been portraiting the real war in which combat situations are often not fair and with a clearly distributed superiotity on one side.

And that is exactly the point:

In reality we do have something against the superiority of combat divers and stealthy naval forces: Undersea mines.

Adding this small feature

• Will increase the possibilities and combat tactics regarding naval operations
  
• Introduce an brand new opposing force to the SDV and divers
  
• Correct the military fronts in Arma III
  
• Make diving a much more interesting, thrilling and dangerous experience

Dont get me wrong, it will not hurt me if this will not be introduced in ARMA III, it was actually just a small idea i decided to take a closer look at ;)

This thread is about the general potential of this new dimension. So if you have other aspects in your mind or ideas where in particular you see this potential, let me know :)

Edited July 11, 2011 by PurePassion

[EDcase 87]

The underwater scenario does seem a bit limited at the moment.

We will probably get hand deliverable mines (Limpets?) but these will have limited use as there are no large vessels that can move.

So as PurePassion stated, divers will be mainly used for covert missions behind enemy lines where stealth is important and not much equipment is needed. This could include sabotage or observation, small scale rescues. (Lasing targets is unlikely due to the size of designator)

I wonder if the diving equipment will be 'removable' so that once ashore they will be able to move more freely and unpack conventional weapons. Or be able to suit up from a stash of diving gear.

Edited July 11, 2011 by EDcase

[maddogx 13]

I wonder if the diving equipment will be 'removable' so that once ashore they will be able to move more freely and unpack conventional weapons. Or be able to suit up from a stash of diving gear.

Considering the images BIS have shown of customizable gear and such, I think it's definitely a possibility.

[Archosaurusrev 12]

Dear Sir,

Your post does not qualify for an ArmA3 forums thread, because of several reasons:

A) your post is well structured and readable

B) your post does not contain at least 4 insults and/or flamebaiting

C) your post does not contain the needed amount of exclamation marks

D) your post has valid arguments and points

I must hereby inform you that your posting license in the ArmA3 forums has been revoked for an indefinite time. Have a nice day!

Mr. Charles

OT: ZOMFG DEM MINES!!!1! I COMPLETELY AGGREEEEE LOL!

Speechless......

+1

Lol...

[stk2008 14]

Little Mermaid addon ftw

No way Finding Nemo dude :)

[purepassion 22]

A little expansion

another important aspect regarding naval mines is the real-life strategy used by military forces.

Limnos is an Island. What do you have to protect the most of an Island? The shore.

And this is exactly where the mines come in play. Securing the shores is an key aspect in Island warfare. On a sidenote: AP and AT mines were confirmed, so adding naval mines would be just a logic consequence ;)

But enough of this topic.

There are many more possibilities that are just waiting to be discovered!

Ideas are like ocean without borders!

[BobcatBob 10]

A secret underwater base for refuling/resupplying nuclear submarines!! we could sneak in by clinging to the side of a sub (scripted) and when the air-lock drains the water we can remove our swim gear, unpack weapons and ambush the sub crew as they exit, then proceed to take down the whole facility!

[Daniel 0]

A secret underwater base for refuling/resupplying nuclear submarines!! we could sneak in by clinging to the side of a sub (scripted) and when the air-lock drains the water we can remove our swim gear, unpack weapons and ambush the sub crew as they exit, then proceed to take down the whole facility!

Subs have anti-saboteur devices to detect exactly that. ;) Good thinking though. Nothing better than sneaking in and blowing shit up from the inside St Nazaire style.

[Valiant 1-4 10]

I fear it might be a more single player tool unfortunately.

As we hear, the subs may not be driveable without mods, so it gives a hint as to really how much further will the naval game actually advance for A3? Have to wait "tm"

I think of game modes like Warfare and i imagine waterbourne optional targets and things like that for this great addition though.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Valiant 1-4

[BobcatBob 10]

Subs have anti-saboteur devices to detect exactly that. ;) Good thinking though. Nothing better than sneaking in and blowing shit up from the inside St Nazaire style.

Awww... that's to bad! (though part of me wants to spend the next several hours dreaming up some incredibly elaborate way to disable said countermeasure by way of some extremely convienant plot hole...):p

[froggyluv 2130]

You don't need to worry about sharks.

From Czechgamer.com interview with Ivan Buchta :(

First off, I love sharks..love them! Used to kayak out toward them when spotted tho they were usually 4-5 ft reef's. My adrenaline would automatically go into red overdrive when I knew one was around my boat -tho they never bothered me.

Sharks would be awesome in Arma3 -especially Oceanic Whitetips as they are known to scavenge and investigate downed aircraft and sinking ships. Even if they only showed up sparingly, just knowing they may be in the water notches up the excitement level exponentially. Could you imagine being in a damaged boat, surely going down and maybe you did, maybe you didn't see that fin.......! Many believe Oceanic Whitetips were the main predator that fateful day the USS Indianapolis was sunk in WWII (of Jaws storytellin fame).

Sharks would give me the thrill many seek I guess from zombies and always make you check your 6 while in the water.

[purepassion 22]

Ahh see Ivan is also thinking about how to spice the diving experience up ;)

Would love to see this ingame. Sharks are beautiful animals.