Real reasons for war in Lybia

[maturin 12]

Noone shouts that saudi soldiers that came to help with opposition rape houndreds of bahrainis...

Fair point. But see, this is why no one listens to you.

If anyone around here dared bring up a similar atrocity committed by Ghaddafi's forces with such a sensational and aggrieved tone, you would cast doubt on it, minimize it, blame false reports, like people did in early threads about Libya, blaming all the atrocities (which turned out to be true) on the lying, unfree Western press.

But oh boy, these crimes against humanity are in Bahrain and make NATO look bad! Better accept them uncritically, spare them the intense skepticism Libya got and harp on it!

[Innomadic 10]

As for why Europe should be interested in Libya? If i recall correctly, Europe owned the entire continent bar two small countries only 100 years ago (in the space of history, thats a small timeframe). The repercussions are still being felt today, just like in the Slavic countries after WW1.

No one can hold moral superiority over anyone, no ones record is 100% clean.

In other news

Nato has only one question as it prepares to unleash Apache helicopters against the forces of Muammar Gaddafi this week, and Captain Ali Mohammed, one of the defenders of the besieged rebel city of Misrata, can supply the answer.

If, as most pundits predict, tomorrow's peace mission to Tripoli by South African president Jacob Zuma fails, Nato will hit the Libyan leader harder than it has ever hit him before.

British Apaches, together with French Tiger attack helicopters, will launch surgical strikes on Gaddafi's forces besieging Misrata. They have the ability to destroy individual gun positions in the town of Zlitan, west of Misrata, with less risk to the civilian population kept there as human shields.

But there is a problem. This kind of war takes time, and time is the commodity Nato does not have as critics complain it has extended the original United Nations no-fly zone mandate into what is regime change in all but name.

The big question is whether the defenders will crumble under the onslaught, or fight with the same tenacity shown by their rebel enemy in Misrata. "If you use Apaches, it is sure they will run away," said Mohammed. "There is a big difference between Gaddafi's men and ourselves. I am defending my home, my family, my city. But Gaddafi's forces do not believe in what they are doing."

OTTAWA — Forces loyal to Libyan ruler Moammar Gadhafi fired a dozen rockets at a Canadian warship earlier this week in what the government is dismissing as a desperate act by a weakened regime.

None of the rockets hit the HMCS Charlottetown, and there were no injuries or damage to the ship in the Monday morning incident, said Jay Paxton, a spokesman for Defence Minister Peter MacKay.

"The ineffective attempt to strike a NATO ship simply highlights the pro-Gadhafi regime's desperation to have some effect on the systematic reduction of its forces," said Paxton.

The Libyans fired BM-21 rockets, a Russian-made, mobile truck-mounted system. Though some versions have a maximum range of about 20 kilometres, it is not considered a precision weapon, especially at a long range.

[vilas 474]

No one can hold moral superiority over anyone, no ones record is 100% clean.

exactly

nor Kadaffi is good, neither Syrian president or Egiptian, Kadaffi is the same criminal as presidents of other Arab countries fighting their society, he is not different

problem is that west see only one side (Russia sometimes too)

if Kadaffi was bombed, Syria, Bahrain should be bombed too (sorry i can miss name of countries, my fault if i misnamed them)

cause at the moment it looks:

- soldier shoot from M16 to people - all is okay, he fights terrorists

- soldier shoot from AK to people - baaaaad, criminal, fight him

if soldier shoot to civilians - he is f* murderer, no matter if he hold Colt bought from US or AK from Russia

but now all look only at this who holds AK, not on this who hold Colt (cause oil matters, economy, profits... who stopped Hutu, Tutsi, Zulu wars ? who stopped problems with gold mining and local people in Sierra Leone ? noone, cause "those gold mines, jewelery mines were our companies, so society even has no idea about west mercenaries that shoot local people fighting for their natural reserves , but were called terrorists"

shame that i cannot find one documentary movie from Planete channel, it was about Sierra Leone and some US/AU gold mine company there

bad people are bad people no matter of economical system , but seems it looks still like during cold war "not one who murdered is murderer, but it depends from him he had bough his gun "

Edited June 13, 2011 by vilas

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

cause at the moment it looks:

- soldier shoot from M16 to people - all is okay, he fights terrorists

- soldier shoot from AK to people - baaaaad, criminal, fight him

It has always been this way, you've been born and lived on the other side of the divide of the Berlin Wall, and it seems "not right" to you.

Guess what, the West runs the show, or at least the people who had taken refuge in this part of the world: Switzerland, France, Germany, UK. Not only do they run the world, but it seems they're doing a good job at it, provided you don't resist to reasonable reforms. One of said reforms is abolition of nationalism. Oops.

[Innomadic 10]

I wouldn't consider a Mercenary to be a representative of his home country, fighting for money and fighting for ideology are two seperate things, you're less inclined to care about your actions, which is why Gaddafi using mercs instead of the army was disturbing to me.

Course this is all based on my interpretation of a Mercenary and a Soldier and the differences between them. I could be completely wrong.

[demonized 20]

Its time people finally stop being scared and pull out the real weapons, there is just so much that we can do with homemade items to pose a real threat to the police, but I'm not going to go in to more detail because I'm not sure if I would be violating the forum rules by discussing that.

i get what you are saying, but i would never support a armed takeover of my "peaceful" country, i am priveliged indeed.

But then again, who is going to stop our leaders, no matter who we "elect" they elect them selves after the election and run the country any way they want anyway in domestic and foreign matters.

election campaign promises is uttelry discarded after a win.

Going to wars based on media feelings and phonecalls, yeah, my countrys Libya engagement with fighter planes was done over a mobil phone call late night before the Libya operations launch, then a call to the prime minister and saying yes, and a quick phonecall to the rest of the main politicians in charge of my country, all said yes on the phone to a Libya "intervention"... FPDR

Matters of war should be debated in the NATO or UN boards with all their representatives present, also very much debated in the countrys leaderboards that want to or does participate.

but since it was just about a "peacekeeping"(no fly zone) operation a simple phonecall was fine.

After they have started the "peacekeeping", they can freely up the ante to full on agressor, demolishing the country.

they do so in closed chambers disregarding what NATO/UN stands for.

Anybody know if it's true al-Qaida is involved with the rebellion? Keep hearing rumors and wonder if it is only for anecdotal justification.

its hard to find any good valid info longer on this subject, as the propaganda machine have uttely infested or removed current valid info, but Obama himself said that the Al-Quaida was in and high in the leading ranks or the rebels.

a few posts:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8407047/Libyan-rebel-commander-admits-his-fighters-have-al-Qaeda-links.html

the telegraph has a lot of posts about it, but then again wich paper is biased and wich is not.

anuwho, The telegraph has alot of storys on libya word, just seek there and google.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/

My own countrys main paper had a story with a report from US that Us knew about Al-Quaida being a major part of the uprising, claiming jihad on Ghadaffi several years ago and going indebt in how ghadaffi was fighting Al-Quaida, even backed by US up to this date (close before libya engagements), but the link that points to the report ends now up being 404, not found.

Edited June 13, 2011 by Demonized

[-martin- 10]

It has always been this way, you've been born and lived on the other side of the divide of the Berlin Wall, and it seems "not right" to you.

"Not only do they run the world, but it seems they're doing a good job at it, provided you don't resist to reasonable reforms. One of said reforms is abolition of nationalism. Oops."

Dude just stop it You're goanna kill me with laughter

[spooky lynx 73]

Fix'd.

Incorrectly fixed. Why - it was said before me. BTW, we had to interfere in the Moldovan mess only for stopping their armed nationalists and prevent another massacre of russians there. You can easily find some evidents like the motto written at the wall of the roadblock built by moldovan nazis - "Chicken isn't a bird, cossack isn't a human".

And using brutal force eg shooting on protesting people, suppress and break down opposition, shelling cities is called what?

At the every european country it will be called "supression of rebellion" or "the war with terrorism".

Should the rest of the world put a blind eye on crimes, violation and atrocity because its easier and more convient to say: "Its their pain not mine - nothing personal, though. Thank you for watching it on TV/internet." ?

YES. You may live whatever you like, and let the others do the same. For some countries and cultures tribal structure, violence and armed struggle for the power are normal parts of their life.

How do you stop hardliners in powerful positions who aren't ready (or too old) for a change or new ways to run a country?

There's a proverb: do not touch a s:icon_exclaim:t and it will not stink.

Fair point. But see, this is why no one listens to you.

If anyone around here dared bring up a similar atrocity committed by Ghaddafi's forces with such a sensational and aggrieved tone, you would cast doubt on it, minimize it, blame false reports, like people did in early threads about Libya, blaming all the atrocities (which turned out to be true) on the lying, unfree Western press.

But oh boy, these crimes against humanity are in Bahrain and make NATO look bad! Better accept them uncritically, spare them the intense skepticism Libya got and harp on it!

Both Bahraini and Libyan opposition (or any other guys protesting against their authorities) are beaten hardly. But Libyan ones soon get full support of EU, US and NATO at all levels and Bahraini ones recieve another kicks from their own cops and soldiers and from saudi guys who came to help their bahraini comrades. And what do I see? All news channels shout about evil Quaddafi's guys who kill and rape everything around them, and bahraini authorities... Well, there's almost silence...

Guys, I see you just wish to get Quaddafi out of Libya and you don't care about any protesters. And any talks about human rights are total BS. Just recognize that you have the power and the will to destroy unwilled regime and make friendly one instead. There's nothing bad in this, but all this hypocrisy and lies are bad. Just say "We have the balls and we'll make Libya our satellite".

[Hans Ludwig 0]

2L9wtK1hmOw

[Innomadic 10]

You may live whatever you like, and let the others do the same. For some countries and cultures tribal structure, violence and armed struggle for the power are normal parts of their life.

There is a point where culture turns into pointless violence...mainly once you introduce modern firearms (be it western or Eastern or Western), where access to incredible power becomes widespread, allowing people to simply force their often unfounded will onto another.

You can't honestly say the complete massacre of people for no other cause other than because someone liked doing it, is culture. You may say the same about western forces in other countries, but if you ever actually talk to some of them, they genuinely want to help the people, they genuinely feel bad when a civilian is killed, at least thats the impression i get from talking to some of our vets, i cannot say the same for the USA, but i imagine most are the same.

[Scrub 0]

@ Demonized: Thanks for the info. :)

@ Hans Ludwig: Couldn't agree more. My country (U.S.) should let those nations capable of supporting themselves do so. Pull out and let the countries fight their wars or sue for their peace. All else is a sustained lie of peace that will eventually boil over (S. Ossetta, Croatia, etc.). That is why separate countries exist with separate ideologies, and Europe is finding out that multi-culturalism doesn't work, removing those borders and inclusion of opposing cultures fractures the internal society of a nation.

@ Innomadic: It's the same in the USA, and 'Feel bad' - or any words on the written page or spoken by someone else - do not convey the hollow, gut-wrenching grief and despair you experience talking to someone about it in private. I watched my life-long friend, who publicly talks tough like mowing down a school full of kids and eating their remains is a normal daily occurrence, curl up in a ball fall off his chair and cry so hard he couldn't breathe and puked, and did it all over again. He made a call that caused a little girl who later ran into the firefight to be killed. As tough as they talk, at times it is all that holds them together.

Edited June 14, 2011 by Scrub

[Innomadic 10]

@ Hans Ludwig: Couldn't agree more. My country (U.S.) should let those nations capable of supporting themselves do so. Pull out and let the countries fight their wars or sue for their peace. All else is a sustained lie of peace that will eventually boil over (S. Ossetta, Croatia, etc.). That is why separate countries exist with separate ideologies, and Europe is finding out that multi-culturalism doesn't work, removing those borders and inclusion of opposing cultures fractures the internal society of a nation.

@ Innomadic: It's the same in the USA, and 'Feel bad' - or any words on the written page or spoken by someone else - do not convey the hollow, gut-wrenching grief and despair you experience talking to someone about it in private. I watched my life-long friend, who publicly talks tough like mowing down a school full of kids and eating their remains is a normal daily occurrence, curl up in a ball fall off his chair and cry so hard he couldn't breathe and puked, and did it all over again. He made a call that caused a little girl who later ran into the firefight to be killed. As tough as they talk, at times it is all that holds them together.

Agreed on all points, the vast majority of Western soldiers (majority, because i can just tell you're all itching to shove AH-64 footage down my throat) by no means enjoy causing civilian casualties, which is in stark contrast to many of those who call us out when shit does hit the fan.

Edited June 14, 2011 by Innomadic

[ProfTournesol 956]

Incorrectly fixed. Why - it was said before me. BTW, we had to interfere in the Moldovan mess only for stopping their armed nationalists and prevent another massacre of russians there. You can easily find some evidents like the motto written at the wall of the roadblock built by moldovan nazis - "Chicken isn't a bird, cossack isn't a human".

Of course. Russian military interventions are for good reasons (peace, human rights, security etc.), but NATO ones are for bad reasons (money, oil, western supremacy etc.) ;)

[Innomadic 10]

Of course. Russian military interventions are for good reasons (peace, human rights, security etc.), but NATO ones are for bad reasons (money, oil, western supremacy etc.) ;)

Yep, we're all evil, i knew it......

-_-

[spooky lynx 73]

There is a point where culture turns into pointless violence...mainly once you introduce modern firearms (be it western or Eastern or Western), where access to incredible power becomes widespread, allowing people to simply force their often unfounded will onto another.

You can't honestly say the complete massacre of people for no other cause other than because someone liked doing it, is culture. You may say the same about western forces in other countries, but if you ever actually talk to some of them, they genuinely want to help the people, they genuinely feel bad when a civilian is killed, at least thats the impression i get from talking to some of our vets, i cannot say the same for the USA, but i imagine most are the same.

Violence there is not always pointless, moreover it often has the point. But this point can not be understanded by us all the times.

Of course. Russian military interventions are for good reasons (peace, human rights, security etc.), but NATO ones are for bad reasons (money, oil, western supremacy etc.) ;)

Since 1990 my nation had been faces ethnical cleancings in Azerbaycan and Nagorny Karabakh, Tadjikistan, Georgia and Abkhasia, Moldova and Chechnya. There you could be easily killed only because you are russian/ukrainian/belorussian. And please name some west-european nation that had gone through the same since 1990. Germans, French's, Brits, any others?

[whisper 0]

If you state that we are spoon-fed false information by western medias about the situation in wars we are involved it, please, let us return you the favor.

Russia going to war has certainly no better reason than US (or any1 going war, mainly) doing so

If you want to play the "you are lied to" game, play it to its full extent. You are lied to, too.

[vilas 474]

of course you are lied too, as we are as Russians are by each one propaganda

if you think that western media do not lie, you are in exact hole as people in other part of world

you must read BOTH media to know truth which is in middle

just as you are lied about our life before and after 1989

the same as Poland was lied by media about Georgia and later one journalist told how his material was twisted upside down/capsized

it's the same as note "Serbs killed Albanians" and later fixed by one word "by" "Serbs killed BY Albanians"

which hardly noone noticed (photos of graves shown by media before invasion on Yu) while in fact half of European/Scandinavian mafioso were Albanians , just like half of mafioso in Russia were Chechens etc.

[whisper 0]

I never said our media were never lying to us, where did you read that? I just find very amusing how western are depicted full of deceit while russians are perfect.

None is perfect, quite the contrary

[NoRailgunner 0]

Well how would you stop the Civil War in Lybia?

- If NATO withdraw their support the side with the strongest force will go on with any crime against their opponents.

- Dividing the country into "old" and "new" isn't a option either.

- Destroying the command and communication structure aswell as logistics isn't done that easily + fast like in movies or games.

- Isolating powerfull leaders takes time...

[st_dux 26]

Regardless of the "real motivation," NATO intervention in Libya is a good thing for the people of Libya. The rebels are going to win -- it's just a matter of time -- and the faster that conclusion can be reached, the less civilians will be raped and killed.

[mrcash2009 0]

Worry more about Syria & Pakistan ... those are the tipping points into something much far reaching more than anything else, although I see personally NATO as being the shit stirrers at the moment opening a can of worms, but, that's my view only.

[Hans Ludwig 0]

Kucinich, Lawmakers Sue Obama to Stop U.S. Operations in Libya

Today, lawmakers from both parties announced a lawsuit they have launched against the White House. The purpose? To challenge U.S. operations in Libya. This is a rare development, as this is a bi-partisan initiative that targets the executive branch’s war powers. ABC News has more:

SOURCE:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/kucinich-lawmakers-sue-obama-to-stop-u-s-operations-in-libya/

LWPnjntendw

Edited June 15, 2011 by Hans Ludwig

[ProfTournesol 956]

Worry more about Syria & Pakistan ... those are the tipping points into something much far reaching more than anything else, although I see personally NATO as being the shit stirrers at the moment opening a can of worms, but, that's my view only.

And don't forget the smouldering fire in Iran. The revolt was crushed in blood, but it's still very active amongst the youth.

[mrcash2009 0]

Im sure that's "on the to-do list" too still :)

There is may too much meddling in other affairs currently for sure, the mindset of invasion and pre emptive attacks and other tactics to make you secure is mind boggling at the moment.

Much like protecting your family and your home by travelling a few hundred miles to a state or area of you country you know has a dodgy area and having a fight and injuring as many people as you can on the basis they might potentially break into you house at some stage so its prevented.

Or getting word that there is a street fight that's 100 miles from you and going to resolve it.

Yes, I know that's way too simplified as a point, but it was only a point.

As much as NATO is a peace keeping force (cough), I still cant help but refer to Team America World Police DVD.

Edited June 15, 2011 by mrcash2009

[ProfTournesol 956]

As much as NATO is a peace keeping force (cough), I still cant help but refer to Team America World Police DVD.

Once again, NATO (nor the USA) didn't take the initiative of what happens in Lybia. It's mainly a French / British operation, with the support of other countries. Then the other involved countries urged France / GB to give the operational lead of the operation to NATO. Which wasn't a good idea, IMO. But operational means of France and GB are quite weak ATM, so they are in need of support.